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And proceed by fuch gentle steps as may give the king no caufe of offence; nor thofe near the king, to poffefs him that we have done fo. I would look a little back, and yet put no queftion upon it. For this reafon, I have taken fome pains to look back how the house has proceeded in things of this nature; and of those, the gentleft proceedings. This is owned on all hands, that anciently the fpeaker made no excufe, nor had the house order from the king to chufe a speaker. 5 Rich. II. and 2 Hen. IV. was the firft excufe that was made. But I would take notice of one thing. Though, of late, fpeakers, it is true, have made excufes, &c. yet it is as true, that the king has admitted them speakers. But they have made none, but by leave of this houfe of commons.-1 James, out of the journal: before the speaker was approved by the king, two or three days, the houfe not only made an order to elect another fpeaker instead of Sir Francis Bacon, but in this feffion 1 James, the king was advised, That freedom of fpeech, and the ufe of the rest of the privileges of the houfe of commons, were ex gratia, and not ex debito;' and the king fent them a letter, That he was fatisfied with it.' But the commons addreffed farther, by way of reprefentation, how the ufage of parliament had been, in that matter, in an humble petition, that their privileges might be continued by way of decency, but not to yield their right.' But as to the matter now before us, I would only fate the cafe to the king, by way of reprefentation, how ufage of parliament has

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been,' and wait his gracious anfwer; and I doubt not but the king will fee that he is wrongfully informed in the matter, and will give fuch an answer as will fatisfy the kingdom-And I propose that the question may be for a representation, &c.

Mr. Hampden.] I wish this matter was come to fuch an end as might give fatisfaction both to the king and the houfe. I am not yet fo clear as ftifly to affert our right, nor keep up our claim. The king gave us a gracious anfwer, and it took exceedingly with me, and I would have you acknowledge it., The right of election of our fpeaker no man can contradict. If the king has a right to chufe our fpeaker, it had been most proper when we were before the king. But there is no diftinction of privy counsellors from others in the houfe, that their prefence is neceffary when a speaker is chofen, or that they must propofe him; unless they make a diftinction of themfelves. You have now chosen a gentleman for your fpeaker unanimoufly; one whom you thought qualified for the employment, and who, you had reafon to think, would have been acceptable to the king. But if privy counsellors muft propofe a fpeaker, and neceffarily be prefent at the choice; if there be no privy counfellors of the houfe, by that confequence you must have no fpeaker. But the chancellor faid, • The king had other employment for him.' Surely that was an extemporary excufe, for a member of parliament ought not to be employed elfewhere. I hope that, in this matter, you will make fuch a reprefentation to the king, as

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home. I move, that we may have fome perfons nominated, of eminence about the king (though not privy counsellors, for they have not the fole privilege of carrying our meffages) humbly to acquaint the king, That the matter delivered by my lord chancellor, in his name, is of fo great importance, that we defire fome farther time to confider of it: And then, no doubt, but we shall ácquit ourselves as we ought to do. I move this way, because it should not be faid that we come to a hafty refolution in fo important a matter. I move that Sir Robert Carr, the chancellor of the dutchy, may go with the meffage to the king; and I doubt not but we fhall make out our rights with all duty to the king.

Sir Rober Carr.] I humbly move you, that the privy counfellors may carry the meffage to the king. I was one, but I am not now. I hope you will difpense with me. There are none of the council here now, but I fuppofe they will be here.

Mr. Sacheverell.] If you ftay for the privy counsellors, the black rod will come up to call you up, &c. and thofe gentlemen of the privy council are not here, and then what will become of you ? We have fent thofe to attend the king formerly who were no privy counsellors, and I would have Carr for one now.

Mr. Levefon Gower.] I would know, whether ever the house made an addrefs to the king when they had no speaker? I would have Sacheverell inform the houfe, whether there be any precedent of that.

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Mr. Vaughan.] Something must be done; and in this cafe we must create a precedent prima impreffionis. Was there ever any precedent that fo many met together, and do nothing. I move you to make an addrefs to the king.

Sir Eliab Harvey.] Our time is but fhort, and pray let us not mifpend it. I will name another to go to the king with Carr, Lord Ruffel.

Sir Chriftopher Mufgrave.] I conceive your proper queftion is, • Whether an addrefs fhall be made to the king for a longer time, &c.?' And when that is over, then you are to nominate perfons to attend the king; and I fhall name a third.

Mr. Powle.] I would have the question be, That an applica tion shall be made to the king that the matter delivered by the lord chancellor yefterday is of fuch great importance relating to the speaker, that we defire fome time to confider of it.'

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ter, though they be very learned in the law, for they are not verfed in law of parliament; that is another thing. Lord Coke, though a very learned lawyer, was much mistaken in law of parliament: Mr. Prynne has rectified him in feveral miftakes. In the journal, 1 king James, you will find that the king did think, that the ufual petitions, at the beginning of a parliament, of accefs to his perfon, &c. were only acts of grace, and that he might deny them; but the houfe humbly reprefented to - him, That thofe things were petitions of right, and not of grace.' We have a gracious prince, and I hope he will not diminish our rights and privileges--petitions of right every ordinary perfon claims. If a man be difpoffeffed of his eftate, he moves the court by way of petition of right, and the king cannot deny writs of error, and petitions of right, when demanded. In R. II's time, there is no mention upon record, that the house attended the king, becaufe the king can take notice of no proceeding of the houfe, till the house communicates it to him. The commons ufually gave notice to the king of their choice of a fpeaker, that the king might know who applied to him. I doubt not but the king is as gracious as his grandfather was, and will be convinced of our right in the matter of a fpeaker.

Mr. Goring.] Some worthy perfons have taken pains to fearch precedents. I would know, whether any perfon but a privy counfellor ufually propofes a fpeaker? And then the king, without doubt, knows before-hand who the fpeaker it I have heard gentlemen former

ly allege it, as an exception against Mr. Seymour, that he was a privy counfellor, and therefore excepted againft him for being fpeaker.

Sir John Cloberry.] I am glad to fee the house in fo excellent a temper to hear a debate of as great a concernmeut as can come before you. Firft it is faid, That the fpeaker ought to be prefented by fome of the privy council,' but I take to be the right of every member to prefent whom he pleases. Secondly, Whether it be our undoubted right?' That is undubitable, the modification of the choice. It has been afferted by the mafter of the Rolls, and he is pleafed to call the presenting of a fpeaker to the king, a compliment only;' which doctrine, if true, then we have a confummate fpeaker; as in materia prima there is a capacity of receiving various forms. The choice of the speaker is our undoubted right, but the manner totally and integrally in our choice. I will begin with Mr. Seymour, who fat in the chair but a while; he made a modeft excufe, and then faid, The houfe cannot chufe a fpeaker but by the king's approbation, and he hoped that would be the only thing the king would deny this houfe. Then, as foon as the king's negative came down upon Mr. Seymour, it was thought an infringement of your privileges. There were never any fueh precedents as for us to adhere to our first choice. In Hen. VI's time, the fpeaker was refufed, at his own request (Popham.) The law is tender of creating a difference between the king and his people, and it may be the king will not deny any law you advife him, only under this modification,

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Mr. Garroway.] You have had a gracious anfwer from the king. If in this time we have not leffened his prerogative in what we have done, we may confider farther of it; and as long as the king has given us time, I would confider of it, and you may confider of it.

Mr. Williams.] I wonder that now it fhould be propofed to name a third perfon, fince the king has given you great time for deliberation. If you name a third perfon, you give up your right. I am as ready for Mr. Powle (named by Streete) as any man; but your anfwer yesterday from the chancellor was about rejecting your speaker by the king's prerogative. And will you fet down and give up your right for a compliment? If fo, farewell chufing a fpeaker for the future! Mr. Powle is a gentleman of great value; but let every man confider the right of the commons of England.

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Sir John Knight.] It is all one, if you name a fecond or third fon; it is equally giving up your right to name a third or a fecond. Here were two in conteft, and both were equally named. I move, therefore, that, as the king is pleased to give us till Tuefday next, to confider, &c. to chufe fome perfon, &c. that we may draw a petition to the king, to fet out our right in chufing a speaker.

Mr. Sacheverell.] I am not for any question at this time; because many gentlemen know not what was faid by the chancellor to us yesterday. In this cafe, I would fend to fearch the lords books, to know whether a refufal or difmiffing our speaker is there entered. And as the king has given

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you time, fo I would make ufe of it to fearch the lords books for what the king has faid by the chancellor, to fhape your anfwer ac cordingly.

Mr. Williams.] The very words were, That the choice of the commons of their speaker was difmiffed.'

Mr. Hampden.] I went to look into the lords journal, and there is no entry made yet of any thing, but in the minute-book only; and what you do must be a debate grounded upon that.

Sir John Ernly.] Now you are putting yourfelves in a way to inform yourfelves of the chancellor's fpeech, &c. and now it is fo freely declared on both fides, I think it is well moved to adjourn till Monday.

So the house adjourned till Monday, by the clerk, as before.

Monday, March 10. The fearch of the lords journal was reported.

Sir Tho. Lee.] I am one of thofe whom you commanded to fearch the lords journal, and, according to the order of the house, we went to the lords houfe, where we searched the journal, but we found no entry made, but fome minutes of the lord chancellor's fpeech in a paper; but the lord chancellor had taken the paper to correct, and we should have them as foon as they were done.

Mr. Sacheverell.] Seeing you can do nothing with thefe minutes, I would do fomething without them, and not fit ftill till the lords have adjourned till Tuesday. Tho' I am confident of our right, yet at this time I would give the leaft occafion of offence that might be,

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feafonable to make a formal determination of the thing. When I heard the question first, I thought it out of all question, but it is not fo clear and fatisfactory to me, though I am them the king's ferjeant, and fo fworn to maintain the king's prerogative.-Hannibal ad portas, Catilina intra mania. In Haman's confpiracy against the Jews, Ahafuerus gave them liberty to speak for themfelves, and Haman was hanged upon the fame gallows he had prepared for Mordecai. But as to the point in queftion, I had a clear opinion, led by my lord Coke, of two hundred years practice, that in that time there was no fuch thing as a public fpeaker till 15 Edw. III. He faid fo, but I find it not. 5 R. I there was a prefentment of a fpeaker. I do but obferve this, though I do not make any conclufion on one fide or other. Sometimes it is found that the fpeaker goes up to the lords houfe, and exercifes his oratory in excufing himself, and fometimes not: but never that the speaker defired the king's approbation, anciently. This fpeaker, Seymour, after you have chofen him, makes his excufe, and you refuse it, and he goes up to the king and makes it, and carries his excufe to another place-This is a breach of your privilege. That of Sir John Popham was a real excufe, and there was a neceffity to constitute another fpeaker, for it is impoffible that a body of this nature can be without a fpeaker, It may be, I may change my opi nion with that modefty which becomes me. I know not what clearly to fay in it. It is hard that it fnould be the king's prerogative, and yet never exercifed; and to be

called a compliment,' we may be complimented out of our right, and this fpeaker in his fpeech has done it. I know not that ever any one speaker was refused by the king, nor ever any anciently that defired approbation. Pardon me if I fay it, we have had fuch great diforders intra mania, of fheriff's double returns, &c. that these things fpend your time; and your enemies, and popery, will grow upon you. Therefore I move, that you will not wave your privilege, nor determine the thing, but take fuch confideration in it that you defert not your right, nor impofe upon the king. I am afraid of that objection against Mr. Seymour, his being of the privy council-He is fo much your fervant as to be your speaker. May not the king fhow you the reafon why he approves not of your choice, viz.

That he has defigned him for an embaffy?'--As yet he has fhowed you no reason. I would not fo much prefs upon the king, but lay afide your right rather than hazard him and the kingdom.

Sir Henry Capel.] Some rights are more in nature than others: that cannot be denied. This right of our speaker, &c. is fo in its own nature. What the fpeaker defires of the king, Accefs to his perfon,' is in the nature of parliament, whether it be asked, or no.

Whether this be of that nature, now the commons have chofe a fpeaker, that we have right to him, &c. I offer not to determine. Whatever that right is, there is a time of declaring that right, and I think it the prudence of the houfe not to declare it now the king is coming towards you. As to what is moved, to appoint

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