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may have a favourable anfwer, and fo you may be let into the fervice of the king and kingdom; and I would have fome gentlemen withdraw and pen it.

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Sir John Ernly.] You have an undoubted right of election of your speaker. It was hinted here, and confirmed by practice, That no man was ever named here for fpeaker by the fecretaries of ftate, or the privy counsellors, in the king's name;' for the choice is in the commons, and it is undoubted that the refufal of a fpeaker, when chofen, is of right in the king. I will give you the opinion of lawyers; that election is in one place, and approbation in another; as in choice of bishops. When a perfon is named, probably he is approved of by the king; it is a thing compounded, and generally there is fuch an intimation that he is acceptable both to the king and the house. The king has declared, That he will not touch a hair of your privileges; but as good lawyers as any in England are of opinion, that the king has and may difapprove of your choice. As to that cited, I James, of Serjeant Philips, who was chofen fpeaker, fome things preparatory might be done, in order to filling the houfe, &c. But the broad feal for the writs was not iffued out for fome time after. Affert the privilege of your clection as much as you please, but I would make no more matter of it than to ftate the thing. But as to the speaker's being conftantly approved by the king, you have chofen a perfon that has always been acceptable to him, and therefore he has been always approved: as Sir Edward Turner, and Mr,

Seymour twice chofen, Sir Robert Sawyer, and Sir Job Charlton were. Sir Thomas Lee.] Ernly has moved you for a third perfon to be fpeaker; but that cannot be, because there is no fecond perfon appears; fo that can be no expedient. But what has been propofed about the reprefentation is most modest. Ernly fays, That in 1 James, &c. the broad feal was not iffued out for fome time after,' but yet the broad feal was iffued out upon the authority of the speaker's warrant precedent. The best thing you can do is, to leave the thing as it was before you ftirred it by the reprefentation. I doubt not but when you bring not the king in queftion, the king will let it ftand as it did. How in the world could we chufe a perfon more likely to fatisfy the king than Mr. Seymour, who, as Ernly fays, has been twice approved? Popham had been a foldier, and was difabled by his wounds for the fervice; and there a caufe was affigned for difapproving the choice. If it be the king's prerogative to reject, &c. as is pretended, fuch an expedient, by reprefentation, may be found out. If you do otherwife, you have spent so much time very ill, if you prefent another fpeaker, and give all np.

Sir Thomas Clarges. ] No nonclaimer, no difufer, can take away right of parliament, because all the people have an intereft in it. A borough complains, That they have right of election of members of parliament, but it has been difufed? The fpeaker thereupon fends his warrant to the clerk of the crown to flue out a writ for election, &c. As for the opinion of the long robe, &c. they may easily be miftaken in this mat

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ter, though they be very learned in the law, for they are not verfed in law of parliament; that is another thing. Lord Coke, though a very learned lawyer, was much mistaken in law of parliament: Mr. Prynne has rectified him in feveral miftakes. In the journal,, 1 king James, you will find that the king did think, that the ufual petitions, at the beginning of a parliament, of accefs to his perfon, &c. were only acts of grace, and that he might deny them; but the houfe humbly reprefented to him, That thofe things were petitions of right, and not of grace.' We have a gracious prince, and I hope he will not diminish our rights and privileges--petitions of right every ordinary perfon claims. If a man be difpoffeffed of his eftate, he moves the court by way of petition of right, and the king cannot deny writs of error, and petitions of right, when demanded. In R. II's time, there is no mention upon record, that the house attended the king, becaufe the king can take notice of no proceeding of the houfe, till the house communicates it to him. The commons ufually gave notice to the king of their choice of a fpeaker, that the king might know who applied to him. I doubt not but the king is as gracious as his grandfather was, and will be convinced of our right in the matter of a speaker.

Mr. Goring.] Some worthy perfons have taken pains to fearch precedents. I would know, whether any perfon but a privy counfellor ufually propofes a fpeaker? And then the king, without doubt, knows before-hand who the speaker is. I have heard gentlemen former

ly allege it, as an exception against Mr. Seymour, that he was a privy counfellor, and therefore excepted against him for being speaker.

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Sir John Cloberry.] I am glad to fee the houfe in fo excellent a temper to hear a debate of as great a concernmeut as can come before you. Firft it is faid, That the fpeaker ought to be prefented by fome of the privy council,' but I take to be the right of every member to prefent whom he pleases. Secondly, Whether it be our undoubted right? That is undubitable, the modification of the choice. It has been afferted by the mafter of the Rolls, and he is pleafed to call the presenting of a fpeaker to the king, a compliment only;' which doctrine, if true, then we have a confummate fpeaker; as in materia prima there is a capacity of receiving various forms. The choice of the speaker. is our undoubted right, but the manner totally and integrally in our choice. I will begin with Mr. Seymour, who fat in the chair but a while; he made a modeft excufe, and then faid, The houfe cannot chufe a fpeaker but by the king's approbation, and he hoped that would be the only thing the king would deny this houfe. Then, as foon as the king's negative came down upon Mr. Seymour, it was thought an infringement of your privileges.

There were never any fueh precedents as for us to adhere to our first choice. In Hen. VI's time, the fpeaker was refused, at his own requeft (Popham.) The law is tender of creating a difference between the king and his people, and it may be the king will not deny any law you advise him, only under this modification,

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• That he has ́employment for Mr. Seymour.' The ceremony of excufing was omitted by Mr. Seymour-Now you will reduce the king to fuch a strait, as either to give up his prerogative, or difcontent his people. I will not fay that we have power in this matter; but that we have right is not yet proved. I had rather give my eyes, hands, and head, than part with this power, if it be your right; but if it be a flower of the crown, I would rather die than take it away. Ablot is no blot till it be bit. Therefore I move, that the thing may be thoroughly debated, and fee our own title to it, and not carry a dough-baked reprefentation to the king, that we cannot maintain.

Soon after Sir John Cloberry had made an end of his fpeech, fome merrily-difpofed gentlemen fent a note from hand to hand about the houfe, fealed up, with this fuperfcription: To the right honourable lord Cloberio, baron Doughbaked, earl of Confummation and Modification, marquis of Materia Prima. Frank Danby.'

Sir Harbottle Grimstone.] Something fell from Cloberry that does a little concern me, of a word flipped from me, That the prefenting the speaker to the king was a compliment, &c.' I spoke what I meant, viz. That the choice of a fpeaker is an act done by the houfe, and there needed nothing more to be done.' When we are called by the authority of the king's writ, furely it is to do fome work, and I believe there never was more work to do than now. Nothing but an act of omnipotence can carry us through it,

We carry the fpeaker up to the lords bar, to let the king know whom we have made choice of; and he is as much accomplished to do our work, to collect debates for a question, that every man may fay aye or no, clearly to the queftion, as if he was prefented to the king, &c. It is not how things will be conftrued elsewhere, but naturally here. When I had the honour to ferve here as speaker, in the convention, [1660] (though the king called it a parliament, it has not had fince fo great a reputation,) I was then weak in my health; but thus much I remember, that when we were in debates, before the king came hither, I was commanded to wait upon the king with the fubmiffion of the houfe, and after I had been at the lords bar, &c. we had occafion to carry up votes. If ever the speaker had made excufe, and presented himfelf for the king's approbation, the transport of joy for the king's coming might have put us upon it. Mr. William Pierpoint took exceptions at what I then faid at the lords bar, viz. That I had not full order for what I faid, and was too lavish of my tongue.' a fpeaker, carried up to the lords houfe, as Mr. Seymour was, though he excused not the accepting of the employment, yet faid,

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He ftood for the king's approbation,' which he was not inftructed to do, he might well be reprimanded. I am willing to comply with any expedient in this matter; but I would not part with our right,

Serjeant Maynard ] Gentlemen, I will tell you what I have obferved in my time. Cloberry did well to diftribute what he had to difcourfe of; but it is not now

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feasonable to make a formal determination of the thing. When I heard the question first, I thought it out of all question, but it is not fo clear and fatisfactory to me, though I am them the king's ferjeant, and fo fworn to maintain the king's prerogative.-Hannibal ad portas, Catilina intra mania. In Haman's confpiracy against the Jews, Ahafuerus gave them liberty to speak for themselves, and Haman was hanged upon the fame gallows he had prepared for Mordecai. But as to the point in queftion, I had a clear opinion, led by my lord Coke, of two hundred years practice, that in that time there was no fuch thing as a public fpeaker till 15 Edw. III. He faid fo, but I find it not. 5R. IF there was a prefentment of a fpeaker. I do but obferve this, though I do not make any conclufion on one fide or other. Sometimes it is found that the fpeaker goes up to the lords houfe, and exercifes his oratory in excufing himself, and fometimes not: but never that the speaker defired the king's approbation,anciently. This fpeaker, Seymour, after you have chofen him, makes his excufe, and you refufe it, and he goes up to the king and makes it, and carries his excufe to another place--This is a breach of your privilege. That of Sir John Popham was a real excufe, and there was a neceffity to conftitute another fpeaker, for it is impoffible that a body of this nature can be without a speaker, It may be, I may change my opinion with that modefty which becomes me. I know not what clearly to fay in it. It is hard, that it fhould be the king's prerogative, and yet never rexercifed; and to be

called a compliment,' we may be complimented out of our right, and this fpeaker in his fpeech has done it. I know not that ever any one fpeaker was refused by the king, nor ever any anciently that defired approbation. Pardon me if I fay it, we have had such great diforders intra mania, of fheriffs double returns, &c. that these things fpend your time; and your enemies, and popery, will grow upon you. Therefore I move, that you will not wave your privilege, nor determine the thing, but take fuch confideration in it that you defert not your right, nor impofe upon the king. I am afraid of that objection against Mr. Seymour, his being of the privy council-He is fo much your fervant as to be your speaker. May not the king fhow you the reason why he approves not of your choice, viz.

That he has defigned him for an embaffy?'--As yet he has fhowed you no reafon. I would not fo much prefs upon the king, but lay afide your right rather than hazard him and the kingdom.

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Sir Henry Capel.] Some rights are more in nature than others that cannot be denied. This right of our speaker, &c. is fo in its own nature. What the fpeaker defires of the king, Accefs to his perfon,' is in the nature of parliament, whether it be asked, or no. Whether this be of that nature, now the commons have chofe a fpeaker, that we have right to him, &c. I offer not to determine. Whatever that right is, there is a time of declaring that right, and I think it the prudence of the houfe not to declare it now the king is coming towards you. As to what is moved, to appoint

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were there not fomething elfe in the cafe, we would eafily part with it. It is a great advantage for the king to fet up his throne in the hearts of his people-There will be great difficulty in an expedient in this matter; and that must be with great patience and kindnefs to hear one another. If the king pleafes to call Mr. Seymour to the lords houfe, all is free and at liberty, and we may proceed to the choice of another, and our privileges will be fafe, &c. But fince we are between two rocks, it becomes prudent men to go where the leaft danger is-But I know not what to propofe.

Sir Edward Dering.] I am not fo fuperftitious, that, becaufe we ftumbled at the threshold, we should leave off our journey; and I hope we shall be at our journey's end. I hoped, that, after two or three days, and the confideration of the merits of the perfon, and our choice, the king would have admitted Mr. Seymour, &c. But feeing he does not, I would proceed to another choice. There is no precedent directly in the cafe, of our power, &c. In this doubtful cafe, I would confider in prudence what is to be done. All know our diffatisfactions at home, and that we have a powerful enemy abroad. We have a reflefs faction at home of papifts. We are in a very bad and helpless condition. Suppofe the king fhould diffolve this parliament, upon this point, and call another, it will be a difcouragement to gentlemen to come again; and if there be no other confequence of our pains than to fit but a week, gentlemen will not be ambitious of that truft. Confider, whether we can anfwer it to the

country, if we break upon this point. If it be faid, That if the king refufes one fpeaker, he may refufe five hundred, and has not refused any, thefe hundreds of years,' that is a strange inference. I think it the best expedient to chufe a third perfon.

Mr. Garroway.] I am not much frighted, nor much invited to fit, fince I find, at the beginning, what entertainment you are likely to have at the latter end of the parliament. We are only unhappy that the king does not confider our reprefentation- Let us try the king, whether he will or no, for one day. I would not yield up our right, and, I believe the king will find out an expedient, and neither infringe your liberty nor his own prerogative. I have known whole feffions defeated in a day, by a prorogation, and if this be done, by the fame counfel it may be again. I pray that with all duty imaginable, the king may be farther addreffed in the matter; and if he will not give us an answer, then I would put the question or our right.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] This point of prerogative, that has fluck these hundreds of years, will raife that other fcruple to break you. There is great difference betwixt matters of grace and matters of right. This of chufing our speaker, &c. is fo much of the effence of parliament, that we cannot part with it. When was any speaker, that was prefented, ever refufed? If nothing of that be, but abfolete power in the king; fuppofe five or fix fubfidies fhould be demanded, and you make application to the king, That the commons are poor and cannot raife them

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