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parliament, and was prefented by us to your majefty as a perfon we conceived would every way be most acceptable to your majefty's royal judgment: this being the true ftate of the cafe, we do in all humility lay it before your majefty's view, hoping that your majefty, upon due confideration of former precedents, will reft fatisfied with our proceedings, and will not think fit to deprive us of fo neceffary a member, by employing him in any other fervice; but to give us fuch a gracious anfwer, as your majefty and your royal predeceffors have always done heretofore, upon the like occafions; that fo we may, without more lofs of time, proceed to the difpatch of thofe important affairs, for which we are called hither, wherein we doubt not but we fhall fo behave ourfelves, as to give an ample teftimony to the whole world of our duty and affection to your majefty's fervice, and of our care of the peace and profperity of your king

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dutiful as could be. Divers reprefentations have been formerly made to his majefty, upon feveral occafions, and I did expect that we fhould have had fuch an answer to this; and we might reafonably expect as gracious an anfwer as formerly, there being nothing but duty in it. But the gentlemen that gave us this anfwer, would not let the king give us a direct answer, becaufe it would be under examination here. Therefore they have taken this courfe. this courfe. It feems, they think it

lofs of time' to inform his majefty of the ftate of the cafe about a speaker. But I would addrefs the king again. In the cafe. of the declaration, fome time fince, we did not make one address, but three, and had fome rougher answers from his majefty than this. Let` us juftify it to the world, that we have done nothing, but in all duty to maintain our rights. And I move, that we may addrefs the king, that he would please to take our reprefentation into farther confideration, and give us a gracious anfwer.

Lord Cavendish.] I am not of opinion that this interruption proceeds from the fame counfels, &c.

The last diffolved parliament was uneafy to them; and in this, here are too many men of quality and eftates to diminish the rights. of the crown. On the one fide, I do not fear this will break this parliament; and on the other fide, I would not gratify the defigns of ill men. It is moft proper for us now to confider, whether this thing will admit an expedient. The fpeaker may be made a lord, a judge, or an ambassador; and that ends the difpute. Whereas fome

men

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fancy that the fpeaker is not made without the king's approbation; if fo, we give up our right-Till the king approves, or rejects, it is his choice of the speaker, and not I would have fome gentleman propose whether there may not be an expedient in this cafe.

ours.

Mr. Bennet.] This is playing at French hot-cockles. I would not, in this, gratify the designs of ill men, who have thrown this bone amongst us. This is to back and mount the colt with a fnaffle, and then to bring him on to a bitt and curb. This great affembly is not to be bought nor fold, but, I fear, the laft was. It is an expedient, that Mr, Seymour comes not to the house; his abfence is an expedient; but ftill affert your right. I would not have him that is named by the privy council, (Meres) but fome other.

Sir Thomas Lee.] I never took that for an expedient, that was a total quitting of your right. I think, time is precious; but I do not think that if this matter be not quieted, the parliament will be diffolved. I have feen answers from the king much blacker than this. This cafe is of a very great nature, and if once things of this kind come to be refined by diftinctions in debate, we may refine away the greatest privileges we have. One parliament called fo foon after another has not been for fome time. That called in 1640 fat but three weeks, and the king repented half an hour after he had diffolved it, and then another was called; and there is no danger to the kingdom though we are fent away. And wherein does a new parliament differ? They are the people fill in another parliament, and I hope no man will be alarmed

with that. with that. I wonder that Mr Seymour is abfent; he knows not what place to fit in, without dif pleafing the king. The king anfwers your reprefentation, that this is lofing time,' and there is nothing remaining upon your books whom you have chofen for fpeaker (for till you are qualified by the tefts you can enter nothing;). but it is entered upon the lords books, That your choice of Mr.Seymour is discharged, and you are directed to chuse another man.' And what privilege will you gain by the expedient? When the practice has been always with you of chufing, you will get no reputation by an expedient. [ would addrefs the king again in this, &c. and hope for fuccefs. When fecretary Williamson was committed to the Tower, the laft parliament, the commons had an answer, &c. and rougher things followed: the act for the militia was rejected. But if you addrefs again, I hope the king will anfwer you by the advice of his council.

Mr. Vaughan.] Your question is not now, whether you shall infift upon Mr. Seymour for fpeaker, &c. but your being called hither to confult de arduis regni negotiis. When your privileges are invaded, what way have you to do what you came hither for? I fpeak now becaufe the parliament is ruiningPerhaps our prince is misinformed, and he does not look upon our paper, nor confider it. Whatever you do afterwards, prefs your pa per now; but at the beginning of. a parliament, do not give up your right.

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Mr. Williams.] This is no lofs of time,' but will be lofs of right,' if you infift not upon your privileges. And plainly, if the

You expofe the honour of the house to cenfure, if you give up your right upon fuch a flight anfwer. I would therefore addrefs the king for a farther answer.

Sir Hugh Cholmondeley.] As far as I can guess, this queftion is better left undetermined. If the king can refuse a speaker, he may refuse several. If the king has not liberty, &c. he cannot difplace, upon excufe of infirmity. We had better begin anew, and leave it as it was. It was moved, That the king might caufe nothing of this matter to be entered upon the lords journal. I propofe that way as most expedient.

Sir John Knight.] You have adjourned that very debate to this day, and your right of chufing the fpeaker is your proper debate, and you can go upon nothing else.

Sir Harbottle Grimftone. ] It has been our work four or five days to find out an expedient in this matter, and we cannot. The king has been fo advised, that we chufe any member but one ; which is as much as to fay, Chufe whom you will but twenty.' Except one, and except twenty. It was a faying of king James, That when he called a parliament, he let down his prerogative to his people; but when he diffolved a parliament, he took it up again; not for his pleafure, but for his power.' If one addrefs will not do, I am for a fecond and a third to the king.

Sir John Hewley.] I would ferve my king and my country, but cannot be in a capacity to give up the caufe for ever. Shall not we have our tongue to speak our own words? As for that precedent in lord Coke, &c. judges do not con

cern themfelves in parliament, and that is the reason they look not into thofe cafes. But I believe, if lord Coke had been here at this debate, he would have changed his opinion. For continuance of this privilege for two hundred years is great authority. But it is faid, Ab initio non fuit fic.'-It is a voluntary act, and no pofitive law; a thing done only out of refpect to the king. It is faid,

That a fpeaker has been rejected by the king, and that is an evidence of the king's power'.-But this is materially on our fide; exceptio probat regulam in non exceptis. Sir John Popham, who was rejected, was fick. This perfon, Mr. Seymour, not difabling himself by any excufe, and being a perfon fo near the king as a counsellor, it is no breach of respect to the king to make another addrefs, &c. I look upon it as an undoubted privilege of the people, and it may prove fatal to give it up, when for two hundred years never any speaker was prefented to the king, but Popham, and he for the cause of his difability, &c. When Serjeant Philips was chofen fpeaker, and placed in the chair, he iffued out his warrant for writs, and the great feal obeyed them, before he was confirmed by the king. The king fays, or generally by the lord chancellor, Go, and chufe your speaker;' not Go to your houfe, and chafe whom I nominate,' but Chufe your speaker: Shall this be taken away by a fide-wind? A facto ad jus non valet confequentia. The fpeaker is our fervant, and is he to obey his mafter, or no? Though the fpeaker be the greatest commoner of England, yet he is not the great

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were there not fomething elfe in the cafe, we would eafily part with it. It is a great advantage for the king to fet up his throne in the hearts of his people-There will be great difficulty in an expedient in this matter; and that muft be with great patience and kindnefs to hear one another. If the king pleases to call Mr. Seymour to the lords houfe, all is free and at liberty, and we may proceed to the choice of another, and our privileges will be fafe, &c. But fince we are between two rocks, it becomes prudent men to go where the leaft danger is-But I know not what to propofe.

Sir Edward Dering.] I am not fo fuperftitious, that, becaufe we ftumbled at the threshold, we should leave off our journey; and I hope we fhall be at our journey's end. I hoped, that, after two or three days, and the confideration of the merits of the person, and our choice, the king would have admitted Mr. Seymour, &c. But feeing he does not, I would proceed to another choice. There is no precedent directly in the cafe, of our power, &c. In this doubtful cafe, I would confider in prudence what is to be done. All know our diffatisfactions at home, and that we have a powerful enemy abroad. We have a reftlefs faction at home of papifts. We are in a very bad and helpless condition. Suppofe the king fhould diffolve this parliament, upon this point, and call another, it will be a difcourage ment to gentlemen to come again; and if there be no other confequence of our pains than to fit but a week, gentlemen will not be ambitious of that truft. Confider, whether we can anfwer it to the

country, if we break upon this point. If it be faid, That if the king refufes one speaker, he may refufe five hundred, and has not refufed any, thefe hundreds of years,' that is a ftrange inference. I think it the beft expedient to chufe a third perfon.

Mr. Garroway.] I am not much frighted, nor much invited to fit, fince I find, at the beginning, what entertainment you are likely to have at the latter end of the parliament. We are only unhappy that the king does not confider our reprefentation- Let us try the king, whether he will or no, for one day. I would not yield up our right, and, I believe the king will find out an expedient, and neither infringe your liberty nor his own prerogative. I have known whole feffions defeated in a day, by a prorogation, and if this be done, by the fame counfel it may be again. I pray that with all duty imaginable, the king may be farther addreffed in the matter; and if he will not give us an answer, then I would put the question or our right.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] This point of prerogative, that has fuck these hundreds of years, will raife that other fcruple to break you. There is great difference betwixt matters of grace and matters of right. This of chufing our fpeaker, &c. is fo much of the effence of parliament, that we cannot part with it. When was any fpeaker, that was prefented, ever refufed? If nothing of that be, but abfolute power in the king; fuppofe five or fix fubfidies fhould be demanded, and you make application to the king, That the commons are poor and cannot raise them

all,'

and upon hue and cry; this man (Danby) is as remarkable in the north, as fomebody (Clifford) was in the weft.

Mr. Williams.] Your debates ought to be applied to your queftion. To debate, that it is the right of the houfe to chufe, and the king to refufe a speaker, I am forry to hear that know, when your reprefentation to the king has plainly afferted the thing. When that appears to be your general opinion, I take it to be a very strange thing now to debate the contrary. But fince you are gone out of the way, pray come in again and affert your right. Prerogative does and must confift, and the effence of it, as much in cuftom as any of our privileges. Now the bufinefs of the five days is to make a precedent in your houfe againft yourfelves as it were. Dr. Exton, who is in another orb of the law, would let your right fleep now, to refume it another time. Now popery and foreign fears are upon us! I have ever obferved, that prerogative once gained was never got back again, and our privileges loft are never reflored. What will become of you when a popish fucceffor comes, when in king Charles II's time, the beft of princes, you gave up this privilege? When you have the oppreffion of a tyrant upon you, and all ill counfels upon you, what will become of you? Now you have none to fruggle with, but ill counfellors and a good prince. I will lay this as heavy upon counsellors as any man can lay it

Sir Thomas Exton was member and L.L.D. VOL. VI.

upon man. I am as willing to heal as any man, but can you lay this afide with honour, having reprefented it already? He that made this queftion cannot want another to play with, and then you will be fent home maimed in your privileges, wounded in your body. This is like an Italian revenge, damning the foul firft, and then killing the body. The reprefentation you have delivered, is very moderately penned; and will you receive this manner of anfwering? When you have prefented an humble petition, what fort of an fwer do you receive? Do you not, by laying this afide, fet up a worfe precedent than you have had an anfwer? I have that in my mind which I cannot fo well exprefs, but gentlemen may eafily imagine. By good counfel, the king may heal all this, but it will never be in the power of the house of commons to retrieve it, if you give up your right.

The fecond humble reprefentation to his majefty:

• Moft gracious fovereign,

Whereas by the gracious anfwer your majefty was pleased to give to our firft meffage in council, whereby your majefty was pleafed to declare a refolution not to infringe our juft rights and privileges, we, your ma jefty's moft dutiful and loyal commons, were encouraged to make an humble reprefentation to your majefty upon the choice

for the univerfity of Cambridge,

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