Mr. ALLEN. The only time that we conduct tests for alcohol is in the case of a deceased pilot, crew member, and we do not obtain blood samples from people who survived an accident.

Mr. BROWN. Is there any way that in the policing of FAA regulations, that such factors are checked on a regular or intermittent or spot-check basis?

Mr. ALLEN. I am not sure I understand your question.

Mr. BROWN. Such factors as the health factor, possibility of flying while under the influence, and so forth? Are there regulations which prohibit this?

Mr. ALLEN. Well, the regulation, I think, as Mr. Thomas pointed out earlier, is prohibition against flying under the influence.

Mr. BROWN. That is right. Now, how does anyone know whether there are any pilots in the air at the moment flying under the influence, unless they have a crash?

Mr. ALLEN. I don't think that you would know, sir.

Mr. BROWN. There is no way of policing this problem?

Mr. ALLEN. Policing of that particular type of regulation would be a tremendous task.

Mr. BROWN. The health factor?

Mr. ALLEN. Their health factor, too; yes, sir.

Mr. BROWN. That is a precheck or a postcheck. In other words, that is the pilot's certification program in commercial airlines, but not in the noncommercial, or the general aviation.

Mr. ALLEN. Well, if I understand your question correctly, sir, we have had accidents in the past where pilots have successfully concealed medical deficiencies during the course of their periodic medical examination, and as I understand it, they are as such, that these deficiencies can't be detected, and unless the pilot reveals it, you would have no way of knowing, and the pilot will continue to fly with that deficiency, until something happens to him.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I would like to return to General McKee with that same question, but before I leave Mr. Allen, I would like to ask structural factors. Is there a way we can build airplanes safer?

carry

For instance, when a small plane hits one of these jets that is ing, however many people we are going to have in the maximum size jet, is there any way we can build that big plane so that it will not explode in the air, or will not completely consume itself in flames, when it crashes?

Mr. ALLEN. Mr. Brown, you have posed a very difficult question. I suppose you could say that you could build an airplane like an anvil and it wouldn't disintegrate, but then I doubt very seriously that it would get off the ground.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I don't want to build one like an anvil, but I would like one that isn't going to be an incinerator when it lands.

Mr. ALLEN. I misunderstood your question. I thought that you had reference to midair collisions rather than emergency evacuations.

Mr. BROWN. I do have reference to midair collisions, to this extent : If a small plane brushes a big plane, I would hope that perhaps the skin of that plane might be such that the small plane might not make it, but that the big one would, but I am talking about such accidents as we have had in the aircraft, or the airlines in recent years, where

perhaps the plane burns faster, or to a greater extent than it might, if we made some structural changes in it.

Mr. ALLEN. Sir, I don't know how you could increase the structural integrity of the present-day aircraft that would withstand the mass of a Cessna 310, for example. I just don't believe that it is within the state of the art, when you consider that if the small aircraft brushed the control surfaces of the large aircraft, chances are that the large aircraft would then lose its control ability, and then it is rather academic whether it crashes as a result of fuselage bursting or because it is out of control and crashes into the ground.

I just don't believe it is within the state of the art to do that. Mr. BROWN. Now we have had some accidents where planes lost an engine, and so forth, and a rather phenomenal job done by the pilot, bringing the plane into a safe landing.

My question is, is there any way, any case like that where the likelihood of the plane bursting into flames and consuming all the passengers can be reduced by any structural changes?

I only mentioned this because you mentioned structures in the investigation.

Mr. ALLEN. Yes, sir. Well, I think that the primary task of the structures group in this particular accident is to determine whether or not there was a malfunction within the control system, or systems that would have prevented the aircraft from taking evasive maneuvers.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I am not sure you have answered my question on that, as to whether they can build planes safer, just as we are trying to build automobiles safer.

General McKee, I would like to get a comment from you on this question of policing airplane crews, both commercial and general aviation crews.

General McKEE. Well, first I would like to address the one, the importance of the aircraft controller and the very important role that he plays in the whole scheme of safety, and they have, all our aircraft controllers, have a yearly physical.

We have also given them, as you have read, psychological tests, for which we, I might add, have been very severely criticized, on the grounds of invasion of privacy.

I don't see any invasion of privacy in the examination, but nevertheless, we have been subjected to very severe criticism in this area, but we are very concerned about the health and the mental attitude and the mental well-being of our controllers, because of the great importance they have in the whole aircraft system. And unless directed otherwise by higher authority, I don't propose to change the present health program for the aircraft controllers.

With respect to the airline pilot, as you know, they have to have rigid physical examinations, and have to meet very high standards. We also have a very extensive program of certificating general aviation pilots, and they have to pass a medical examination.

Now, when you get into the subject of alcohol, which is a problem, I just don't know how to police it. We do have occasional reports from people that this rule has been violated, and upon getting reports, we immediately make an investigation, but it is a very hard thing to control.

Mr. BROWN. Some effort was apparently made to police the two Navy planes, to find out about the two Navy planes, but there is no spot check done of general aviation.

General MCKEE. You mean, when we have an accident?

Mr. BROWN. No; under normal conditions, routine procedures, occasional spot check of either.

General MCKEE. Go up to, say, Mr. Brown flying a private airplane from Dayton, Ohio, to Washington, and what do you think would happen if I sent an aviation inspector out to find out if Mr. Brown' had been drinking before flying his airplane?

Mr. BROWN. You do on an airline pilot, don't you?

General MCKEE. No, we don't.

Mr. BROWN. I thought you had FAA inspectors occasionally ride planes?

General MCKEE. Yes, occasionally ride planes; but we don't go up and give them an alcohol test.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, this completes this phase of the hearings.

General McKee and Mr. Thomas, I believe that you have served the requirements of this committee well, and of the Congress, and the general public. I think that every once in a while, that we need to have the agencies up here. It happens that there was a crash in North Carolina and this brought you on a little more quickly, probably, but you know, we as Members of Congress have to go back and give an accounting to our constituents.

I think it has served well, and I want to thank you for your patience in answering the questions. I, for one, want to say that in my mind, there is no question about your devotion to duty, and that of all your employees, regardless of any article that has come out, I have been associated with many FAA employees, and I have found them always to be very cooperative, and very busy, and I sometimes wonder how they do their jobs.

An ordinary individual couldn't do a lot of them, I know, and I don't see how they get to sleep at nighttime, sometimes, when they get home, with all the activity they have to do in a day's tasks.

Chairman O'Connell and Mr. Allen, I want to thank you for your important contribution to the hearing. I think you have helped set the record straight on what has happened, and is happening, and the procedures that you go through.

Also, to the other members of National Transportation Safety Board: You have a great challenge before you now, you and your staff, and this committee and I, as chairman, wish you well in your job.

I again go back to the article. I say to General McKee that you have served this Nation well in war and in peace, and I think that you are doing your very best to serve in your capacity, and I know of no better man better qualified to do the job, so we are happy to have had all of you with us.

This does not end our complete inquiry into this. I am hoping that sometime in the future we will have other segments of the aviation world either before this full committee or a subcommittee, to give us further feelings in the matter, but I think that you have done an excellent job. It has been 5 hours and 5 minutes now that you have testified, and I think that is quite a bit, so I, for one, and on behalf

of the committee want to thank all of you, and say that I think you have done an excellent job.

General MCKEE. Thank you.

Mr. O'CONNELL. Thank you very much, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That ends this phase of the hearings. Tomorrow morning, this committee will begin executive sessions on other busi

ness.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, will we have a chance to resume with other witnesses at a later date on this subject?

The CHAIRMAN. I will talk to you about that.

The committee will stand adjourned at this point.
(Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m. the committee adjourned.)

AVIATION SAFETY

MONDAY, AUGUST 28, 1967

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND AERONAUTICS,
COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to notice, in room 2123, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Samuel N. Friedel (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Mr. FRIEDEL. The subcommittee will be in order. Today the Subcommittee on Transportation and Aeronautics of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce resumes hearings on aviation safety. These hearings commenced earlier in the session by Chairman Staggers, before the full committee.

From the list of organizations and persons who have indicated their interest in these hearings, it is apparent that there is a great deal of concern and effort in the pursuit of maximum aviation safety. The unachievable goal is a 100-percent assurance of safety in flight. The closest realization of that goal is the desire of each one of us who has an interest and responsibility in aviation.

We have earlier heard from the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, Gen, William F. McKee; his deputy; and other experts in the FAA. We have also received testimony from Chairman Joseph J. O'Connell, Jr., of the National Transportation Safety Board and the Director of the Board's Bureau of Aviation Safety.

The National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration are the two Federal agencies primarily responsible for aviation safety. Safety is their duty every day. It is the function of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, and this subcommittee, to consider proposed legislation in the field of aviation safety. It is also our function to make certain that the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board are carrying out their present legislative duties in complete accordance with their mandate under the Federal Aviation Act and the regulations issued pursuant to that act.

It is apparent that the numerous organizations with interests in aviation safety can lead to some duplication and controversy. Just from the witness list that we have for Monday and Tuesday of this week, it is obvious that there are many separate interests in aviation which have given rise to associations and organizations to foster sometimes conflicting programs. But, I believe that all of these and the numerous other ones would do well to coordinate their safety efforts. An increased communication between industry and private organizations and the Federal agencies should be encouraged. An example