as well have no orders at all if they were | risk of exciting discontent by altering that not imperative. This doctrine had been law and that practice of the constitution also laid down by the noble and learned which had been established byour ancestors, lord on the woolsack, and it was astonish- and had continued for centuries, by placing ing to him that those two noble lords could the attorney general upon a level with a thus attempt to destroy their lordships' grand jury. The bill, by the powers it gave, standing orders. He could not account tended to abridge the freedom of the press; for it but upon this principle, that the lan- and though he, as much as any man, wishguage used by them was intended, on their ed the licentiousness of the press to be part, to be imperative towards that house. checked, he objected to this bill, because it -The question was then put upon the tended to fetter the freedom of opinion, original motion, and agreed to without a by placing those who uttered opinions disdivision. agreeable to the government, in the power of an officer of the crown.

[INDICTMENT BILL.] On the question for going into a committee on this bill,

Earl Stanhope said, he had waited a little while, that some noble and learned lord might have an opportunity of speaking, but he was astonished at their silence. They perhaps thought it more prudent to remain silent, when they could give no reason if they spoke. If the noble and learned lord on the woolsack thought what was assigned in the preamble a sufficient reason, he would produce his own expressions, not in that house, while in debate, but in an act of parliament of his own framing, which would give the lie to the reason mentioned in the preamble of this

Lord Erskine thought it his duty to oppose its going into a committee, considering it, as he did, an alteration in the law of the land, without any necessity whatever being shewn for it. It had hitherto been invariably the practice of the constitution to draw a distinction between an indictment found by a grand jury, and an information filed by order of the court of king's bench, or by the attorney general ex officio. It was now for the first time to be declared, that on informations as well as upon indictments, the parties were to be held to bail. The practice had hither-blasted bill brought up from the house of to been upon information, to summon the commons. That house ought to be repro

party by subpoena, and if he did not ap-bated for sending such a bill; it was as pear to issue an attachment, but not to contemptible in its formation as it was hold him to bail, the attachment being dis-wicked in its principle. The noble lord charged the moment the party put in an commented upon the similarity of title of appearance. Under this bill, upon the in- this bill, and that of the 26th of the preformation being certified, the party might sent king, which was produced from the immediately be held to bail. To such an infamous bill of Pepper Arden. This act alteration he could not consent, unless of the 26th had not continued for many some strong necessity was shewn; and not years when the noble and learned lord a word had been stated in favour of this thought proper to introduce another bill, bill to prove any such necessity. It was which also passed into a statute, and in the nothing to the point, that the present at- preamble of that statute it was expressed, torney general would not commit any abuse that great grievances to the subject and a of his power. They were to consider what loss of justice had been occasioned by the future attorney generals might do under former one. Now, the present bill said this bill; the king might be deceived, that great convenience and benefit had and a worthless person might be appointed resulted from the former as well as the attorney general; or an attorney general latter. He considered it as an infringmight be deceived, and informations, ex offi- ment of the liberty of the subject, and cio, might be filed for expressing opinions one which deserved the utmost reprobation. which every man had a right to express; He was surprised at the indifference shewn and persons might, under the operation of by that house upon such an important this bill, by being held to bail, be griev-change being made in the fundamental ously oppressed. At a time like the present, when the people must necessarily bear great burdens and endure great privations, and when there was every probability they would be called upon to bear greater burdens and endure greater privations, he thought it unwise and impolitic to run the

laws of this realm. When he looked round the house, and saw, on all sides, the benches, deserted upon such an important occasion, he could not avoid making one observation, that if any business had been transacted there, which might excite some curiosity about the father of a child; or

HOUSE OF LORDS.

if it occasioned the presence of a beauti- | ferred to the statute of Ch. 1. and shewed ful young lady, their lordships' benches what attention was therein paid to the liwould have been as full as they could be berty of the subject and the guarding him crammed. He did expect some answer from imprisonment. When this statute would have been given to the strong ar- was passed, it received the royal assent difguments of his noble and learned friend, ferently from any other act of parliament. but he supposed they were unanswerable. The king said let right be done the

-Upon the motion being again made by people, as is by parliament demanded.' the lord chancellor,

The noble lord then proposed an amendLord Holland rose, and expressed the ment, to exclude from the bill informations utmost astonishment that no answer should tiled ex officio by the attorney general, be given to what had been stated by his which was negatived; as were also some noble friends. It was unparalleled in the other amendments proposed by the noble history of this country, that so great a earl. change should be made in the law of the land, without any necessity or reason but those stated in the preamble. His lordship here, with great eloquence, urged,

Wednesday, May 25. as he had done on a former occasion, the (INDICTMENT BILL.] Earl Stanhope obdanger of altering our laws, generally, for served, with respect to this bill, that he the purpose of obtaining the convenience should wish to move that it be read a third of extraordinary laws made for the re- time this day eight months, but as that venue. There were objections made by motion would not be carried, he must conhim and his noble friends which had not fine himself to fixing a day, in order that been answered, and in such an important noble lords might be aware of it, and when change of those laws which had been he hoped they would attend. He therehanded down to us from our ancestors, and fore proposed' Monday. His lordship obwhich attracted the admiration of mankind, served, with respect to trying a man in it was requisite, he thought, that some his absence, that a jury, if they found the necessity for such a change ought to be defendant was not present to take care of shewn by those who defended it. For his his own defence, might acquit him, and part, he considered it his duty to give a that a jury would not be subject to an most decided opposition to such an inno attaint for an acquittal. After quoting vation. He saw no necessity for the mea- at length some law cases, and reading sure; and he thought there would be con- several extracts from acts of parliament, siderable difficulty in convincing him that for the purpose of proving the former practhere could be any necessity for this dan tice and usage of the constitution, his lordgerous alteration. If the bill did not alter ship concluded by moving, That the bill the law, but enacted what was already en- be read a third time on Monday, and that acted, it was absurd,; and if the alteration the lords be summoned ; which was ore was made, he could never assent to it, dered accordingly. unless he was persuaded there was sufficient necessity for that alteration.

A division took place on the question for going into a committee, Contents, 15.

Wednesday, May 25. Non-contents, 6. Majority,9. The house (WESTMINSTER Election—Case of Pri. then went into a comunittee. Upon the VILEGE.] Sir Francis Burdett, adverting to first clause being read,

the cominunication which he had thought Earl Stanhope said, that although he it his duty to make to the house on a formuch commended the conduct of his noble mer night, relative to certain proceedings friends, who liad left that house because in one of the courts below, which appeared they would not be present when such a to him to trench upon the Privileges of pernicious bill passed through the com- that house, informed the house that the mittee, yet he had staid himself; for, practical consequences, for which it had after the unjustifiable manner in which been recommended to him to wait, had this bill had passed before their lordships, now taken place. He assured the house, he had an inc ina ion to see what their that in bringing this question again Lordships would do in the committee. before the house he bar no interest He then submitted several alterations, in it, but what any other member would, and in the course of the proceeding re- and ought to feel, upon a subject affecting

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

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his privilege as a member of parliament. | debt, for work and labour. This circum

The question was simply this, whether a stance did not arise from any defect in the member elected withoui his knowledge, (udge, who tried the case, but from the and taking his seat in obedience to the neglect of the counsel of the hon. baronet. king's writ, was or was riot liable to incur Sir A. Piggott declared himself to be per. any part of the expences of taking the fectly satisfied that this was not a case in election ? He did not mean to submit which the house could interfere. It was any proposition to the house upon the sub- a proceeding in the regular course of jusject, neither did he make any complaint. tice. If the action in this case could have Having thus brought the matter under its been entertained at all, it must have been consideration, it would be for the house to on the ground that it arose out of a decide, whether or not the case was of such contract. The act which allowed the exa nature as to call for its interference.

pences of erecting hustings, &c. in the Sir A. Piggott expressed a wish to know, case of counties, did not extend to bowhat were the exact circumstances of roughs; yet even there, candidates might which the hon. baronet complained ? agree that for their accommodation, or

Sir F. Burdett stated, that the practical that of their voters, during a contest of 14 inconvenience to which he now alluded or 15 days, hustings should be erected, the was, an execution having been sent into expence of which could not reasonably

be his house, for what were said to have been expected to fall on the high bailiff. The expences incurred in taking the election action, therefore, could only be on the for Westminster; for which he had not been contract so supposed to be entered into, a candidate, and of his nomination, or and could of course have no relation to the indeed election, to which he was almost a election, so as to make it a matter of pristranger till the event had taken place. vilege to be taken up by that house. This The ground of the decision, too, was the fact must be a question either of fact or of law, of his having taken bis seat in that house. and in either case it might have been

The Chancellor of the Exchequer appre- brought before the court by demurrer, or hended that his learned friend opposite, by bill of exceptions, so as to have the (sir A. Pigott), had not been in the house ground of it appear on record. It behoved on the former night, when this case was those who had the legal means of defence brought forward. He had then stated, in their own hands to go before the judge that whatever the decision might have in a regular manner. If they omitted to been, the house was not in a condition to do so, it was not for that house to interpose. give any redress. The hon. baronet then If the house should be of opinion that it stated, that the direction of the noble and would be improper that a candidate should learned judge was, that the person who be on any account at the expence of erectappeared for sir F. Burdett and claimed ing hustings, let it be made the subject of seats for his clerks, should be adopted as a prospective regulation. But as that was his agent; because the hon. baronet had not the case at present, this must be like since taken bis seat in consequence of that any other suit founded on a covenant, election. He (Mr. Perceval) then stated, the effect of which must be construed by as he did now, that the house was not in a the jury. condition to take advantage of this fact. Mr. Tierney said, it appeared to him, notHad this been the direction of the Judge, withstanding what had fallen from his hon. the direct and regular road of proceeding and learned friend, and from the right hon. would have been to have applied by writ and learned gent. opposite, that the preof error, or on the ground of misdirection sent was a question of privilege. He could on the part of the judge; if wrong or not admit of the doctrine, that the house right, the ground of the decision would of commons was not entitled to interfere then have appeared on the record, and in the acts of omission or commission of would have been seen by the house. The the courts below, so far as the privileges of hon. baronet's counsel, however, not hav- the members of that house were concerned. ing adopted that mode, but having moved The case was this ; the worthy baronet for a new trial, which had been refused, no was returned without his knowledge, and way now remained for bringing the mat- without any previous consent on his part : ter with effect before the house. It now the returning officer had no right to make appeared not to be a case of privilege, in a demand on any candidate for hustings; which a member of that house, as such, but a person whom he supposed to be the was interested ; but a common case of agent of sir F. Burdett having made use of VOL. XI.

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them when erected, he sues sir Francis for Mr. Bathurst thought it impossible for his proportion of these expences; the the house to entertain a question on which judge esteems the hon. baronet's taking they had no authentic information, the his seat as a confirmation and approbation recommendation of the judge, which could of the conduct of the person who appeared alone form the ground of the proceeding, on his behalf, in fact as a recognition of not having been entered upon the record. him as his agent; he instructs the jury The Speaker said, after what had passed accordingly, and they, in compliance with in allusion to himself, it was necessary for this recommendation, find the worthy ba- him to put the hon. baronet right as to ronet liable. If these facts were so, he what he had stated on a former night. asked, was not this a grave and serious What he said was, that when any practiquestion of privilege ? Or was the house, cal inconvenience did arise, if the hon. by refusing to listen to it, to sanc- baronet continued to think that it involved tion the idea, that in complying with an a question of privilege, he should in that order which he was not entitled to resist, event lose no time in applying to the namely, taking a seat when called to it by house. He had no hesitation in saying, the electors, every member of that house that if any judge should recommend to a was to incur a penalty which he had not jury what could be construed into a breach contemplated, and which, but for the offi- of the privileges of that house, it was the cious and forward zeal of a person with duty of the house to resist, and to guide whom probably the party had no concern, their course according to circumstances. the returning officer had no right to de- As there was no motion before the house, mand ? In saying this much, the right he should only suggest two different modes bon. gent. begged to be understood as by of proceeding, both of which had been no means retlecting on the noble and adopted in the reign of Charles 2. One learned lord who tried the action. He was in the case of judge Weston, where an knew that there was no person less likely impeachment was ordered ; and the other than he to do any thing that could seem to in the same reign, where that measure not infer a breach of the privileges of the being deemed necessary, the matter was house. It was possible, however, that even allowed to drop without any further dishe might be mistaken. It would be a cussion. Those who thought the present grievous burden if a member returned to a case of the most serious nature, would parliament without any personal inter- probably be of opinion, that the former of ference of his own, were obliged to shew, these was the preferable mode of proceed as by law he was, not only that he: pos- ing; while others again might be inclined sessed a qualification of 3 or 4001. a year, to think that the latter was the most debut also to produce out of his pocket 4 or sirable way of disposing of the present 5001. to defray the expence of the hust- question. He had stated what were the ings. He hoped, therefore, the question modes of proceeding; and it was for the would not be supposed to have been dis- house to say, whether in this case the more posed of, but that it would be renewed for or less serious mode ought to be adopted, after-consideration; appearing, as it did to Sir Francis Burdett said, the sources from him, to be one well worthy of deliberation whence he derived his information as to before a decision was come to upon it. the recommendation of the judge, were the

Mr. Leycester said, that the person who notes of the short-hand writer employed to had been held as sir Francis's agent had take down the trial, and the information called on the high bailiff; and, in the name of his counsel. He esteemed these as of sir Francis, declared that he would not affording him suflicient foundation for pay for the hustings; yet that this same bringing the matter before the house. person, day after day, asked, obtained, and The only thing he had submitted to the arailed himself of, ile advantage of seats house was the instruction of the judge ; for the check-clerks, inspectors, &c. who that the circumstance of his taking his seat, were to attend to the hon. baronet's inter- a thing which was incumbent on him, was ests in the election. The learned gent. such an approval and ratification of the prodid not pretend to say what was the re- ceedings had under the election, as must commendation of the judge ; but it was subject him to the expence of the husthardly probable, that it was such as had ings. He felt himself by no means interbeen represented, else a new trial, which ested in the fate of this discussion. He had been moved for, would have been esteemed it to be the cause of the house ; granted.

and if he had taken a bill of exceptions,

or adopted any other mode of setting a Committee to take the Petitions into con aside the verdict than that which he now sideration, I should hope that the temper used in submitting the case to the consi- with which it will be met, and the deration of the house, he should have con- manner in which it will be argued, will ceived that he subjected himself to a rather approximate the minds of gentlesevere censure for his conduct. He now men, than remove to a farther distance, left it to the house to determine as they the great objects of justice and of policy. thought proper.—Here the matter dropped. With such hope, therefore, I wish gentle

(ROMAN CATHOLIC Petition.] Mr. men would apply the balm of oblivion; Sheridan presented a petition from the that they will not revive those topics Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county which can only serve to irritate and inof Wexford, praying to be relieved from flame; that they will not go back to the the disabilities under which the Catholic battle of the Boyne, nor to the business of body labour.—Sir John Newport presented 1745, ner indeed to any of those afflicting a similar petition from the Catholic inha- periods in which, unfortunately for my bitants of the city of Waterford.--Mr. country, parties contended against each Butler presented a similar petition from other. If you go back, so will the Cathothe Catholic inhabitants of the county lics; if you make out a law against them, and city of Kilkenny.-Mr. M. Fitzge- they will make out a case against you; rald presented a similar petition from then we shall have historian against histothe Catholic inhabitants of the county rian! men of blood against men of blood ! of Kerry.-Mr. Shaw presented a petition The consequence will be, that the parties from the lord mayor, aldermen, and com- will remain unreconciled and irreconcileamon council, of the city of Dublin against ble—each the victim of their own prejuthe Roman-catholic Claims. All which dices, and the result will convince you that were ordered to lie on the table.

the victory remains only for the enemies of Mr. Grattan then moved, " That the both. In the course of so many years

of Petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, contest and prejudice, it is impossible not whose names are thereunto subscribed, on to recollect that much evil must have been behalf of themselves, and of others his engendered, national calamities must have majesty's subjects professing the Roman multiplied, and much violence have passed. Catholic religion, which was presented to in the tempests to which Ireland was rethe house upon Monday last (see p. 489) duced by the two contending parties--the and then ordered to lie upon the table, one fired by bigotry and intoxicated with might be again read.”—The Petition victory—the oiher overpowered by misforwas read accordingly; after which the tunes, and wrung by oppression—I say, it right honourable gentleman again rose is impossible but that great political evils and addressed the house as follows must have arisen. However, therefore, “ Mr. Speaker ; the Petition which the we may lament those times, we trust all house has just heard read contains the agree, in settling their accounts there was sentiments of the Catholics of Ireland. much to admire in both parties, but also Not only that Petition, but the other we must recollect that there was something petitions presented this day, speak the to forget. Something has happened since sense of that body. I may therefore those periods which makes it necessary to fairly assume, in the course of what I have do away those religious distinctions. It to say, that it does speak the sentiments is now desirable that a spirit of unanimity of four fifths of the Irish population. The should prevail. When gentlemen call to Petitions come from a considerable portion mind the state of the war, and the conseof your electors, having political power; quent danger which menaces our empire, forming a part of the United Kingdom; they must be convinced that unanimity is and applying to the constitutional organ necessary for our existence as a state. It for a legitimate object. In discussing the is this feeling which pervades my mind, merits of the petitioners' claims, I should and it is a feeling which I most seriously recommend to gentlemen to avoid any wish to impress upon the mind of this intemperate language, and to adopt a house. A cordiality in co-operation is spirit of concord, that nothing may pass what I strenuously recommend; and I do in debate which shall sharpen the public most sincerely hope and trust that the mind. Whatever decision the house may good sense of both nations will supply the come to, upon the motion which I shall defect of national concord. We are now have the honour to propose, for going into arrived at that period when the cessation

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