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be one span of at least five hundred feet clear that there was a special bill passed authorizing
between piers. The corporation may execute the bridging of the Mississippi river at St.
a mortgage and issue bonds payable, principal | Louis, or a special provision in that general
and interest, in gold; and their bridge across bill.
the Mississippi river and approaches thereto, Mr. HENDERSON. I am very well aware
when constructed, is to be a post road to carry of that.
the mails of the United States, and enjoy the Mr. RAMSEY. This is amendatory of that.
rights and privileges of other post roads. The Mr. HARLAN. I understand that two com-
corporation may bold their meetings in either | panies were organized to construct a bridge in
the State of Illinois or the State of Missouri, pursuance of that law, one under the authority
as the board of directors may elect, and the of Missouri and another under a charter granted
directors may be citizens of any of the United by the Legislature of Illinois. These two cem-
States ; and ihe corporation may sue and be | panies were for a time in conflict; that is, they
sued in any circuit court of the United States. were contending each for the right to construct
Nothing in the act or in any previous legisla the bridge; but ultimately they have consoli.
tion affecting the premises is to be so construed dated under the law of the State of Missouri
as to deprive the Legislatures of the States | authorizing them to do so.

A certified copy of Illinois and Missouri of the right to regu of that act was before the committee, and also late the tolls and fares wbiclı may be charged a certified copy of the articles of consolidation, by the company for the use of the bridge ; but so that it appeared to the committee that there the tolls now fixed by the Legislatures of was a perfect agreement now that these two Illinois and Missouri shall not be increased. companies would consolidate and construct the

Mr. HOWARD. I do not know from what bridge after the pattern mentioned in this bill. committee the bill now before us bas proceeded, Mr. HOWARD. I understand the Senator but I observe, from the reading of the bill, that from Missouri to say that there is not laid down it assumes to recognize two State corporations in the charter any particular mode or manner as constituting but one, for the purpose of || in which this bridge shall be built, except that erecting this bridge across the Mississippi it shall not be so built as to obstruct navigariver; and the bill goes further: it assumes to tion. Now, suppose the State corporation limit and regulate the powers and faculties of should refuse to make the bridge according to that corporation by providing that the bridge the requirement of this act, what would be the shall be built in a particular manner, and with result? Is there any remedy which the Uni. & certain span. I wish to inquire of the hon ted States could resort to ? They are authororable Senator from Missouri whether the ized to construct a bridge across the river so State corporation, or corporations, having this as not to obstruct navigation. I am not sure bridge in charge will be bound to follow out | by any means that the States have not the right the provisions of the bill which we now have to authorize the construction of a bridge across under consideration. If those provisions alter the Mississippi river, and I am by no means the charter of the company granted by the sure that it is in the power of Congress to say State, may it not turn out that these companies that they shall not do it. It is on this point will refuse to comply with the provisions of that I wish a litile light from the Senator from the act, to build the bridge in the manner pre Missouri. If the State corporation refuses to scribe i by it; and if they should so refuse, I do what we prescribe, is there any remedy for inquire of the honorable Senator from Missouri the United States ? what remedy the United States will have ? Mr. HENDERSON. I do not know that Have Congress a right to alter and amend char. the United States could compel the constructers granted by the States? That is the ques. tion of a bridge at St. Louis. That is not the tion to which I desire an answer.

purpose of this bill; it is merely to declare Mr. HARLIN. I believe there can be no the mode of constructing by State corporadoubt but that Congress could prohibit the con. tions, a consolidation of which has now taken struction of any bridge across the Mississippi | place, a bridge which shall be a post road. I river under existing laws. This bill provides | believe it has been customary to pass such bills that the bridge may be built as provided for by here in Congress. the laws of Illinois and Missouri, with the con Mr. HOWARD. I understand that very dition that one of the spans shall be five hun- well; but there is a corporation authorized to dred feet in length, and the company agree to construct a bridge in its own way across the put in a span of that length. There is no con Mississippi river, and we undertake to dictate fict, therefore, between the company as now to that corporation as to the manner in which organized and the Government either of the the bridge shall be constructed. Suppose the United States or of Missouri or Illinois,

corporation refuses to construct it in that manMr. HOWARD. Suppose they should fail ner, and contends for making it in a different to comply with that provision ?

style? Mr. HARLAN. I suppose if they decline to Mr. HENDERSON. I do not understand build the bridge no damage will be done except that this bill dictates to the corporation in what to those who expect to use it; certainly no manner they shall construct the bridge. It detriment to the Government of the United does reqnire them to construct it of a certain States only so far as they would be deprived of span, and the company desire to construct the the use of the bridge for a post road.

bridge in that way. Senators may rest assured Mr. HENDERSON. The bill under con. there will be no difficulty, so far as the comsideration provides simply for a change, as I pany is concerned, about their building the understand it, in the construction of this bridge bridge. They intend to proceed and construct from the requirement of the act of July 26, it, and their plans have been adopted in strict 1866, which the Senator from Michigan will accordance with the principles laid down in remember required bridges to be built in a cer this bill. tain style. This bill requires a wider span, a Mr. HOWARD. Suppose they should wish span of five hundred feet. Some say that the to depart from them? bridge cannot be built with that span. The Mr. HENDERSON. Then it might, perengineers at St. Louis say that it can be built. haps, defeat the construction of the bridge ; The State charters did not require any particu that is all; but the bridge, I apprehend, will lar width of span, and, as stated by the Sena be built, as the bridge company itself is will. tor from lowa, there is no conflict between this ing to build under this restriction ; that is, with bill and the State charters. The State char. span of five hundred feet, a greater span than ters authorize the construction of a bridge in has been required of any bridge over any navsuch a manner as not to obstruct navigation at igable waters of the United States at the presthe city of St. Louis. The Senator from Mich ent time. Surely the Senator from Michigan igan will remember that in 1866 there was a should not object. The company are willing general law passed upon the subject of bridging to take upon themselves this restriction and the Mississippi river. I resisted the passage build a bridge wide enough in the span to adinit of that bill, but I was overpowered; the Senate the largest steamers and the largest rasts that passed it, and it has become a law.

float upon the Mississippi river, and high enough Mr. RAMSEY. The Senator will recollect to allow even the largest New Orleans steamers

40TH Cong. 20 Sess.--No. 250.

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act, but organized into a corporation different acts in relation to the Navy," approved March to the House for concurrence. I would not individuals. A conflict of right and of juris. \ 2, 1867; but the repeal of the section is not to ask this for any private measure, or any measdiction over the river occurred between these be construed to increase the pay now allowed by ure of individual interest ; but this is a bill of two companies, each claiming the sole and law to officers promoted in accordance with exclusive right to construct a bridge at St.

great public importance, and it is very desir its provisions.

able to get it through, and I think it will take Lonis, and claiming the right by virtue of the The fourth section repeals all acts and but a little while to do it. respective charters of the different States. parts of acts authorizing the appointing of The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The cofinThey enjoined each other from proceeding, i temporary acting officers in the Navy. ished business can be laid aside informally, if each company claiming, as the Senator from The Committee on Naval Affairs reported there no objection. Michigan now claims, that the Legislature of a the bill with various amendments. The first Mr. SHERMAN. I happen to know that State interested has a perfect right to proceed | amendment was to strike out the first section that bill will probably excite some comment to authorize the construction of a bridge across of the bill after the enacting clause in the fol and create some delay. It is a bill of much the navigable waters of the United States.lowing words:

greater importance than I supposed when the The Senate will observe that these two com That from and after the passage of this act the Senator spoke to me about it a little while panies are now organized into one. They have Marine corps shall consist of the number of oflicers, ago. I desire to get through with the funding so organized themselves, so far as they possibly

non-comunissioned officers and musicians authorized
by the act for the increase of the Marine corps of

bill to-day if possible, so as to get it out of the can, by articles of agreement into one com the United States, approved March 2, 1847, and the

road. Senators all around me are impatient. pany, thereby doing away with the difliculty aets previous thereto, and of fifteen hundred pri- || They say it stands in the way of other busithat occurred from this claim of right of each

yates; and all acts and parts of acts inconsistent
herewith are hereby repealed; Provided. That the

ness; and I hope, therefore, we shall proceed State.

coininissions of officers now in the Marine corps shall with the regular order. I have no donbt I Mr. CONNESS. I have no objection to the pot be vacated by this act, but no appointment shall shall vote for the Senator's bill when it comes bill except to call attention to its peculiarity,

be made in any of the grades of said corps until the
number in said corps is reduced below the number

up again.
I should not object to a bill, and I should ihink
herein provided for each of said grades.

RIGHTS OF CITIZENS ABROAD. it entirely right, giving the consent of the The amendment was agreed to. United States to the consolidated corporation

Mr. CONNESS. With the leave of both doing certain things, namely, building a

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I think it Senators I desire to submit a motion to trans.

would be well to have the Senator from Misbridge.

fer the special order appointed for to-day to souri explain this bill and state how much it another day, which will be removing one of Mr. HENDERSON. That is all the bill

increases the pay of any officers of the Marine the obstacles. I move to make the special does. corps or of the Navy.

order for to-day at one o'clock, ihe bill for the Mr. CONNESS. No; the bill goes further. It organizes these companies into a corpora

Mr. DRAKE. That explanation would come protection of American citizens abroad, the

up in proper connection with an amendment order of the day for Thursday next at one tion under a national statute, and authorizes

proposed by the committee. If, however, the o'clock, by agreement with the chairman of them to issue bonds, declaring the manner in honorable Senator from Vermont desires to the Committee on Foreign Relations, giving which they shall be made payable, and that, I

have that explanation made before we come notice that we shall expect it to be cunsidered submit, is going further than we have ever

to that amendment, I will make it now. There on that day, gone.

are several amendments of small character The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair Mr. HARLAN, The Senator from California is evidently in error in that respect.

that can be acted upon at once. I will explain will put the questiou on that motion.

Con- | the point referred to when we come to the The motion was agreed to. gress has recognized a railroad


amendment which involves it. the laws of California, and authorizes that

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The unfin.

The next amendment was in section two, to railroad company to do certain things, among strike out the enacting clause; in line three to

ished business of Saturday, the funding bill, is others to issue bonds, the principal payable in

now before the Senate. insert the words "first three” before the word Mr. DRAKE. thirty years, and the interest payable in gold

I will say to the Senator grades;'' in line four to strike out the word from Ohio that if this bill of mine should lead at a certain rate; and the same law authorized

“provided” and to insert authorized;" in certain companies incorporated in Kansas and

to debate, I would, of conrse, give way as line eight, after the word "steamships," to certain companies in California to consolidate

once ; but if it should not lead to debate, we insert * of war;' in lines nine and ten to and proceed to do certain work as consoli

could get through with it in a few minutes. strike out the words, " and the grade of third Mr. SHERMAN. I can say to the Senator dated companies, or as one company consoli

assistant engineer is hereby abolished," and dated under that provision,

that I am requested by other Senators to state to insert, " and no appointment of third assist that the bill will lead to discussion. They Mr. HENDERSON. All that will be found

ant engineer shall hereafter be made;' so as to wish time to look into it. It is a very importin the Pacific railroad charter. make the section read :

ant bill, which is called up now for the first The bill was reported to the Senate, ordered

That no appointment of engineers shall be madein to a third reading, read the third time, and either of the first three grades of said corps until the

time. No doubt the Senator having called it passed. number is reduced below that authorized in the first

up now and called the attention of the Senate section of the act to regulate the appointment and to it will get the advantage of that when he NAVY AND MARINE CORPS.

pay of engineers in the Navy of the United States, calls it up again. Mr. DRAKE. I move that the Senate take

approved August 31, 1842, and the number so author-
ized shall be based upon the number of steamships

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. up for consideration House bill No. 941. of war now in commission. And no appointment of The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, third assistant engineer shall hereafter be made.

A message rom the House of Represents: as in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to The amendment was agreed to.

tives, by Mr. McPherson, its Clerk, announced consider the bill (H. R. No. 941) to amend

that the Speaker of the House had signed the

The next amendment was in section three, following enrolled bills and joint resolutions ; certain acts in relation to the Navy and Marine now made section two, lines four, five, and six, and they were thereupon signed by the Prescorps.

to strike out the words, " and the ninth secThe bill provides that from and after its tion of an act entitled . An act to amend cer.

ident pro tempore of the Senate: passage the Marine corps shall consist of the tain acts in relation to the Navy,' approved

A bill (H. R. No. 676) granting a pension to number of officers, non-commissioned officers,

Thomas Connolly; March 2, 1867, are,”' and to insert the word and musicians authorized by the act for the “is;" and in line nine, after the word "re

A bill (H. R. No. 938) to authorize the sale increase of the Marine corps of the United pealed,"' to strike out the following proviso:

of twenty acres of land in the military reserStates, approved March 2, 1847, and the acts

vation at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas ;

Provided, The repeal of said section shall not be previous thereto, and of fifteen hundred pri- | construed to increase the pay now allowed by law to

A bill (H. R. No. 201) declaratory of the vates ; but the commissions of officers now in officers promoted accordance with its provisions.

law in regard to officers cashiered or dismissed the Marine corps are not to be vacated by this So that the section will read :

from the Army by the sentence of a general act, and no appointment is to be made in any That the second section of act entitled "An act to

court-martial; of the grades of the said corps until the num increase the payofmidshipmen and others, "approved

A bill (H. Ř. No. 1119) for the registration ber in the corps is reduced below the number March 3, 1865, is hereby repealed.

or enrollment of certain foreign vessels ; herein provided for each of the grades. The amendment was agreed to.

A joint resolution (S. R. No. 139) escluding No appointment of engineers is to be made

from the Electoral College votes of States in either of the grades of the corps until the ing hour having expired, the unfinished businumber is reduced below that provided in the ness of Saturday, being the funding bill, is now

reorganized; first section of the act to regulate the appoint- | before the Senate.

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 201) in relament and pay of engineers in the Navy of the Mr. DRAKE. As this is a bill of very great

tion to Rock Island bridge United States, approved August 31, 1842, public importance, reducing the expenses of

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 281) author and the number so authorized is to be based the Navy more than half a million dollars &

izing the issue of clothing to company F, upon the number of steamships now in com year, and conforming its official personnel to

eighteenth regiment United States infantry; mission, and the grade of third assistant engi. the reduction of the number of seamen in the

and neer is abolished. Navy wbich Congress has already made at this

A bill (H. R. No. 1099) for the relief of The third section proposes to repeal the session, I ask the honorable Senator from Ohio

Wait Talcott. second section of an act entitled “ Ån act to in charge of the funding bill to allow us to go

HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. increase the pay of midshipmen and others," through with the amendments which the comapproved March 3, 1865, and tbe ninth section

The joint resolution (H. B. No. 335) for the of an aet entitled "An act to amend certain but a few minutes, and let the bill be sent back

lands, in Kansas, was read twice by its title,

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The mornfacery in rebellion which shall not bave been

mittee have reported, which will probably take protection of settlers on the Cherokee neile

and referred to the Committee on Indian first place, we should be quite as likely, becausi Affairs.

the people wouldreason,

* If I should get m The joint resolution (H. R. No. 337) con money at that time, very well; but if not, I gi tinuing the retining of bullion in the Mint of on precisely as if this limit had not been placer the United States and branches, was read upon the bill originally." In my judgment twice by its title, and referred to the Commit we had very much better pay the six per cent. tee on Finance.

interest, as we are paying it, for a few year The bill (H. R. No. 1428) authorizing the longer, than put the control of the finances, of admission in evidence of copies of certain the funds, so called, out of our hands for the papers, documents, and entries, was read period of twenty years. Remember that when twice by its title, and referred to the Commit. we have once transposed these bonds in this tee on the Judiciary.

way, they are no longer within our control for

the long periods that we tix. If this country THE FUNDING BILL.

becomes as prosperous as I believe it will The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, within ten years from this period, if it arrives resumed the consideration of the bill (S. No. at that point of prosperity, which we may well 207) for funding the national debt and for the

foresee for it, with our troubles settled, and conversion of the notes of the United States,

everything going on as it did, I believe that the pending amendment being on the amend.

within ten years from this time the credit of ment reported by Mr. SHERMAN, from the Com.

this country will be rivaled by the credit of no mittee on Finance, as a substitute for the bill.

country on the face of the earth, and that it Mr. HENDERSON. I move to amend the

will be perfectly easy for us to borrow money, amendment in line nine by striking out " five'' if we are disposed to borrow it to take up the and inserting “ four and a hall;': in line ten, debt that falls due, the accruing debt, upon after the word “four," by striking out the terms most favorable to ourselves, and at the worus and a half;" and in line eleven by lowest rate of interest. Believing that for the striking out four” and inserting three and

sake of putting out a bill at the present time a balt';" so that the clause will read:

for any purpose, either to affect the mind of The issue of bonds falling due in twenty years shall the public at this particular crisis, or for the boar interest at four and a half per cent.; bonds talling duo in thirty years shall bear interest at four per

still better purpose of reducing the interest, I cent.; and bonds falling due in forty years shall bear

have not been able to persuade myself that interest at three and a half per cent., which said what we should gain for a short period in interbonds shall be exempt from taxation, &c.

est by the reduction of one per cent. would, I should like to have the yeas and nays on by any means, pay us for putting the control this proposition.

of these large sums of money out of our hands The yeas and nays were ordered.

for so long a period as twenty years. Mr. L'ESSENDEN. I shall feel disposed to Now, sir, this is an opinion which I state for vote for this amendment if the bill is to stand what it is worth. It is my settled conviction, as it does now, issuing bonds at twenty, thirty,

and I know it to be the settled conviction of and forty years; but I have an amendment to men wiser than myself. For that purpose I propose which I think ought to be made to the propose to offer the amendment I have sugbill, and if that amendment be adopted I shall gested to the Senate, and see what the Senate pot vote for this amendment because I think it think of it, and upon the vote on that will would be limiting the interest too much. I depend my vote upon my friend's amendment propose to amend the bill, when I have an to reduce the interest. If my amendment preopportunity, in the first section, line five, by vails, I shall let the interest stand as it does inserting after the word " after," the words now; if not, I shall vote for the Senator's "ten years and payable after, so that it will amendment. read, redeemable in coin at the pleasure of Mr. HENDERSON. I shall not argue this the United States after ten years, and payable financial subject. I did not suppose, a short after twenty, thirty, and forty years respect time since, that anything would be done upon ively.' If that amendment should be adopted, these bills at the present session; but it seems I should be willing to vote for the rates of inter to be the desire of the chairman of the Finance est as they stand now in the bill, and think Committee at least to put before the creditors that would be as well as we could do.

of the United States a proposition for funding I am opposed to taking off the limit of ten their debt, and for the reduction of the rate of years. As our financial system stands at the interest. At an early part of the session, on present time it is a perfectly fixed and stable the 21st of January last, I introduced a bill, the system. We have, in reality, only two kinds second section of which provided for the fund. of funds, the five-twenties, so called, redeem ing of the public debtable after five years, and payable in twenty "Principal and interest to be paid in coin, and years, and the ten-forties, redeemable after ten bearing interest at a rate not exceeding three and a and payable in forty years. I think ten years half per cent., payablo semi-annually, the same to is the furthest point to which we ought to go

be paid in fifty years from their date, but relcemable

at the pleasure of the Government after ten years and put out of our hands the power to redeem. from the date of issue, which said bonds the SeeThe system as it stands now was predicated | retary, may dispose of at not less than their par upon the idea of controllability; that our funds

value," &c. bearing the interest they might, in a rea The Committee on Finance reported a bill sonable time, be within our control; that if a for funding the debt-I do not remember the better state of things occurred, as we believed time-at five per cent. I desire simply to state, a beller state of things would occur, and the without taking up any of the time of the Senate country became stable and prosperous again, || during such hot weather as this in the discusit would be perfectly easy for us then to reduce sion of a proposition of this character, that a the rate of interest, and reduce it materially, | large portion of the people of the United and place our funds on a very different footing States believe that about two thousand million from that on which they now stand. That is a dollars of our public debt is payable in lawful power, and an important power, which those money; in other words, in greenbacks. A who had charge of the finances thought should large number of them also believe that the always be retained as far as possible. I pre Government may properly issue any quantity sume that there is no one of the committee but of United States notes for the payment of the what would agree with me upon the important public debt; while another large portion of the principle; and yet the first section of this bill | people believe that we have a perfect right to abandons that idea and carries the lowest point | pay the five-twenties in lawful money of the Uniforward for ten years more, so that the bonds || ted States, but that it would be bad faith to exwe may put out now are not to be redeemable ceed in the issue of lawful money $400,000,000; within twenty years, or only after that time has but that with an outstanding circulation of expired. Tihink that that is inexpedient and $400,000,000 we may proceed from year to unuecessary.

year to pay off the greenbacks in tive-twenties. I know the answer that may be given. It is in this coutrariety of opinion a proposition is that we shall not be likely to negotiate the now presented to fund the public debt, includbonds with such a provision. I think, in the lling the five-twenties, in a new set of bonds or

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is a mere proposition to the creditors, and United States, after ten years, and payable after due sooner than the old one. That is a cor they can take it or not take it, I do not think twenty, thirty, and forty years respectively.” clusive argument against it. we have much to gain by it. For myself, I Mr. SHERMAN. I wish to submit to the When I found that Congress was not willing would rather the creditors should refuse to Senate a few considerations that bear directly to take my legal opinion as to the right of the fund than to fund under the proposition of this on this proposition, and trust, on account of Government of the United States to pay the bill. I must say that the securities this bill the importance of the subject, that Senators five-twenties in lawful money I as a matter of will give them will be infinitely better to the will give them such weight as they merit. course was compelled by these reasons to waive creditors than the present securities. In other The oposition to issue a bond redeemable ny opinion and favor a longer boud in order words, this is a bad contract on the part of the at the pleasure of the United States after ten to make an additional inducement for the fundGovernment; it is a contract we, as guardians years was the original proposition made by me ing of the debt. The Senator from Maine of the public interest, ought not to be willing in January last. It is one which I submitted, seems to think that the United States may very to make, and I for one, being unwilling to inake and which, for the reasons stated already by soon negotiate a bond at less than five percent. it, move this amendment, and I hope it will be the Senator from Maine, met my judgment at

I do not believe that time will arrive in this adopted.

the time. But there was great difference of country for thirty or forty years. My own Mr. CATTELL. Of the two propositions, opinion in regard to terms and conditions of impression is that the rate of interest cannot the one presented by the Senator from Missouri the various bonds proposed to be issued. That be kept below that in this country. Although and the one presented by the Senator from differenceexisted in the Committee on Finance, we are growing rapidly we are yet a vast new Maine, I very greatly prefer that presented by land after the fullest consideration I was willing country, with undeveloped enterprises demandthe Senator from Maine. There is a manifest to waive my opinion and vote for a twenty.year ing capital, and a great deal of it. I do not propriety in holding the control of this large five per cent. bond in connection with a propo. believe that in this country the rate of interest indebtedness, if we can possibly do it at this sition to issue a thirty-year bond at four and will fall below five per cent for a generation rate of interest, and succeed in funding the one half per cent., and a furty-year bond at or two generations of men, because the de. debt, or, as the Senator from Maine says, in four per cent. I will state the reason which mand for capital is so great and the accumularefunding it. The proposition of the Senator induced me to change my position on this ques tion is so litile. I think five per cent will be from Missouri proceeds on the opinion which tion. In order to make this funding a success

the lowest rate of interest thai can be had for he expresses here that we may lawfully pay the one of two things must be done. One is for

many years to come; and if we desire to make five-twenty bonds in lawful money. To that you to declare that the bonds of the United this funding scheme a success it is idle for us proposition of the Senator from Missouri I States now redeemable may be paid in the law. to issue a bond running for a shorter time than respectfully enter my dissent. I believe, in ful money of the United States, and if that is twenty years, and bearing a less rate of interthe language of the platform of the great party done we can undoubtedly receive enough money est than five per cent. which the majority in this Chamber represent, for a five per cent. ten-year bond to pay off the My friend from New Jersey said that he that we are bound to maintain the public faith principal of the five-twenty bonds. But the desired to make the best terms possible for the and honor, and to meet our obligations not Senate were indisposed to adopt any such view. United States. The Committee on Finance, only in the letter but in the spirit of the laws No doubt a large majority of the Senate is with possibly a single exception, agreed that a under which they were contracted; and so long against any such proposition. Therefore there less rate than five per cent, and a shorter time as I occupy a seat in this body I cannot con is no inducement for the holder of a five-twenty than twenty years would not do, and I will say, sent, under any conceivable circumstances, to bond bearing six per cent. interest in gold to as my friend from Maine knows also, that that give my sanction to the payment of the public take a five per cent. bond unless you give to him is the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury. debt in anything else than that in which the a longer time for it to run. Let us reason on It is true his opinion would not prevail against Government of the United States has always this point precisely as we would if we were the our deliberate judgment; but we can only make paid its bonded debt, in coin, the legal tender of holders of five-twenty six per cent. bonds. this negotiation through' him. He is limited the country and of the world. I therefore must The holder of such a bond will say the United by this bill so that he cannot sell a single bond vote against the proposition of the Senator from States offers me a five per cent. twenty year unless he can redeem an equal amount of fiveMissouri, because I believe the rate of interest bond; what reason is there why I should give | twenties. He must, therefore, sell them acwhich he proposes is so low as to entirely up a six per cent. for a five per cent. bond? | cording to the market rate, now 113 or 114. defeat the operation of this bill. I believe all One answer is that by this new bond the time A five per cent, ten-year bond cannot be sold the members of the Finance Committee, with within which it may be redeemed is extended. at that rate unless you give it additional value. the exception of the Senator from Missouri, The present bond is redeemable on the pay You limit him by the terms of this bill to sell. are under the impression that the terms pro ment of its face in gold according to the claim || ing the new bonds at a rate which will take up posed in the bill under consideration are the of a majority of the Senate. Why, then, sur: an equal amount of five-twenties. He cannot shortest in point of years and the lowest in render my six per cent. bond and take a five sell them at par in lawful money, he can only point of interest under which the public debt per cent.? The answer is that an extension of sell i hem in such a way as to take up an equal inay be refunded.

time is had, the redemption of the bond is post amount of five-twenties. He cannot do that, It is perfectly proper that those who enter poned. The five-twenty bond becomes pay because he cannot get anybody to give that tain the views of the Senator from Maine, who able in 1882, and this new bond is not redeem- price for a five per cent. ten-year bond, and prefer that the debt should remain in its pres able until 1888, There is an extension of | surrender a six per cent bond which has fifent position at the interest of six per cent. time, which gives additional value always to a teen years yet to run. rather than be refunded under this bill fixing bond.

In regard to all these details, let me say to the time so long as twenty years, without any Another argument in favor of these new Senators who have not examined this subject, option of the Government, should be opposed bonds, and which will induce many people to and probably will not give to it the considera to the bill; but whoever is in favor of refund fund in them, will be this: the old bonds are tion we have done, that in my judgunent, unless ing the public debt at five per cent. interest, taxable by the United States to a certain ex they are clearly convinced by reasons given, it with a bond of positive conditions, payable in tent;

we now levy an income tax on them, and is better to take the terms of the bill as reported twenty years, should vote in favor of this bill,

the House of Representatives, by a decided here by the committee after careful and mature in my judgment. If you attach to it any other vote, directed a bill to be reported levying an consideration rather than make changes, unless conditions or any other rate of interest I fear income tax of ten per cent. on all bonds issued the changes are defended and maintained by that you defeat the working of the bill. It is | by the United States. Although this proposi reasons that approve themselves to their con with this view that I shall vote against the tion never will meet the sanction of the Senate, sciences.

If I thought it possible, I should be proposition of the Senator from Missouri ; and in my judgment, yet it tends to impair the very glad to negotiate a shorter bond, but in I hope it will not prevail. market value of the five twenty bonds, and

my judgment you cannot negotiate on the basis The question being taken by yeas and nays, the holders of those bonds, in order to get a

of this bill in exchange for an equal amount resulted-yeas 8, nays 25; as follows:

bond which is definite on its face, clear in its of five-twenties a bond more favorable to the YEAS-Messrs. Buckalew, Cole, Conkling, Davis, terms, which limits the power of the United Government than a twenty-year five per cent. Henderson, Hendricks, Patterson of Tennessee, and States to tax it to the same income tax that is bond. Vickers-8.

levied on all other incomes, will take this new Mr. FESSENDEN. On looking further at NAYS-Messrs. Anthony, Cameron, Cattell, ConDess, Cragin, Drake, Ferry, Fessenden, Howard, security, and it will have an additional value this provision I find it is new; it does not im. Morgan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Verinont, Mor on that account.

pose upon the Government the obligation of ton, Nye, Osborn, Ramsey, Rice, Ross, Sherman,

These two incidents of the new bond, Sunner, Van Winkle, Wade, Welch, Williams and

paying the principal of these bonds at any time. Wilson-25.

together with the clear stipulation that the It takes what I believe is the English system, ABSENT – Messrs. Bayard, Chandler, Corbett,

principal and interest shall be paid in gold, give the idea of a permanent debt. It says Dixon, Doolittle, Edmunds. Fowler, Frelinghuysen,

to the new bond a value which, in my judgment, deemable after twenty, thirty, and forty years Grimes, Harlan, Howe, MeCreery, McDonald, Norton, Patterson of New Hampshire, Pomeroy, Sauls will induce the great body of the bolders of the respectively.' Redeemable when?. At no bury, Sprague, Stewart, Thayer, Tipton, Trumbuil, five-twenties to convert them into the new specific time; but it simply says: “ If you take Willey, and Yates-24.

bond without any other stipulation or any this bond we will not redeem it before twenty So the amendment to the amendment was threat or any other measure.

years, or thirty years, or forty years shall have rejected.

If the amendment of the Senator from Maive expired, as the case may be, and after that we Mr. FESSENDEN. I move to amend the li prevails, and you reduce the running of these will redeem it when we can." amendment by inserting in the fifth line of the bonds to ten years, the new bonds will fall | which were first issued during the war were first section after the word "after,'' the words i due before the old ones. The old bonds would redeemable after five years, and payable in

ten years and payable after;"" so as to read fall due in 1882, and the new one would fall | twenty years, as I recollect ; that is, we became "redeemable in coin at the pleasure of the i due in 1878 so that the new hond would fall absolutely bound to pay them at the end of

The bonds

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twenty years. It is a question to be considered to the demands for money, people would just whether in our country, where money is chang: as willingly, in my judgment, have a bond ing hands so rapidly, a bood which imposes no liable to be redeemed in ten years as in twenty obligation to pay at any specific time would be provided that the bond itself had what they favorably received. I propose to modify my considered ample security for its redemption amendment by substituting for the last word, in the credit of the obligor, but whether they "after,' the word "in;'! so as to read “re would or not I think we had better let things deemable after ten years, and payable in twenty, stand as they are for any purpose whatever thirty, and forty years respectively.'

except for the mere temporary purpose of Mr. SHERMAN. I have all the loan laws making an impression on the public mind, before me, and I will state to the Senator from which in my judgment amounts to just nothing Maine that, with two or three exceptions, their at all. Nothing will be affected by it at the provisions have been in this form, redeemable present period by changing our bonds from one after a certain time.

condition to another. The effect will be to Mr. FESSENDEN. And payable when ? put off the period when we shall have power

Mr. SHERMAN. Payable at the pleasure to take them into our own bands by payment. of the United States after a certain time. Even I am strongly impressed with the belief that I in regard to the bonds redeemed in July last am right about this matter ; but whether I am we were not bound to pay them unless we or not will be for the Senate to judge. chose. I have here the act of 1790, the original Mr. SHERMAN. I bave looked over the funding act of Hamilton which made the same loan laws, and I find that all the loans of the provision.

United States up to 1862 were in the forin Mr. FESSENDEN. My idea is that we contained in this bill as to redeemability. The should follow out the system which was inaugu loan of 1881 now running is not payable in rated at the beginning of the rebellion. It 1881, but payable at the pleasure of the United might have done in old times when our debt States after 1881. was very small and we were borrowing small Mr. FESSENDEN. I am aware of that. sums to leave the time of payment indefinite; Up to that period the bonds were always so but my judgment is that if you want bonds tó | issued, making no difference between redeembe taken you should fix a definite period when ability and payability ; they were all redeemthey become payable, and that it will not do to able and payable at the same moment, and it issue a bond which is simply redeemable at the would amount to the same thing. But when pleasure of the Government, because that is we found that we were to be so largely in debt, the amount of this bill as it stands. I think the having a war upon us the end of which we people prefer to take a bond which has some could not foresee, the system was adopted of definite period of payment fixed. I still adhere fixing a short time within which the bonds to what the Senator has said to be my original might be redeemable if the Government was opinion. He says truly that this bill confers able to redeem them and another time when additional advantages upon the takers of these the Government would be obliged to pay. That bonds. One which is a very important one is is the system which we then adopted, and that it settles the doubt as to the medium in which we have carried through. In my judg. which they are payable, whether in coin or in ment it was one of the wise ideas of the then currency. If the holders exchange the present Secretary of the Treasury who had recourse to bonds for those issued under this act they get it, and I have always believed that we ought rid of that ditficulty. Then there is a limitation not to depart from it, and that we should not upon the power of taxation by the General issue long bonds which were entirely out of Government which does not apply to the other our power for the whole time they have to run. bonds. Thus making these two things definite Mr. EDMUNDS. If the Senator will per: and taking the bonds out of the domain of legis- | mit me in that connection I will say that is the lation or of temporary excitement or temporary

actual form in which the form was actually purposes, you give to them a character of sta issued. The bond reads “redeemable at the bility which at present our public obligations pleasure of the United States after the 30th very much need. I think with these changes of April, 1867, and payable the 1st day of it becomes an object with the holders of the May, 1882.' That is the express form of the bonds to exchange them, and that they would probably-because it is all mere probability

Mr. SHERMAN. The United States never take the bonds which they hold now, redeem- stipulated to pay money at a specific day until able but not exactly payable, floating in the it was doue under the severe pressure of the market, subject to all the contingencies, and war, and we never ought to do it again. Sup. exchange them for ten year bonds on these pose a great amount of bonds, $500,000,000 terms.

or $1,000,000,000, should fall due when the But, sir, I recur to my original proposition. | five-twenties would be due, the 1st of May, I believe it would be better for the United 1882, the United States are compelled on that States to let their bonds already funded and day to pay this vast sum of money, because not yet payable for many years stand as they | they have no power as before to pay it at their are at present. I believe the five-twenty bonds, il pleasure after a specific day, but they must pay alıbough redeemable, do not become payable on that day. That is a very severe and onerfor thirteen or fourteen years to come, so that ous burden on the Government of the United we have an ample margin. Our obligations | States, and the stipulation that was put in the are not pressing upon us.

It would be better, five-twenty bonds was an advantage to the in my judgment, to let them remain as they creditor which at that time the United States are funded for the present, rather than make was compelled to insert, that they would pay an effort at this time, when the credit of the the money at a certain time whether it was United States, owing to certain circumstances, able to pay or not. Now, however, the United accidents, and considerations to which I need States is at peace, and I think we ought to go mot advert, does not stand as it ought to stand, back to the old system, make our bonds, like and defer that effort to refund them until a few the bonds of other Governments, payable at years longer. I would prefer to pay the addi- | the pleasure of the Government after a speci. tional per cent. for a few years rather than put fied time. The specified time is for the benourselves in a position where we could not lay efit of the holder of the bond, within which his our hands on any of these bonds, whatever investment may not be interfered with. The niight be our condition and circumstances, and time after that is for the benefit of the Governwhatever might be the state of the money ment, which may not find it convenient to pay market, and however high our credit might be, at the stipulated time. Therefore the language until the expiration of such a long period of used in this section is introduced following the time.

uniform language of all loan laws with the That is the answer I make. I do not agree exception of those in regard to the five-twenwith the honorable Senator that the change ties and ten-forties. would necessarily affect their negotiability, Mr. FESSENDEN. That is the very guesbecause in the constantly fluctuating state of tion I am trying to test in the Senate. If we things in this country, particularly with regard Il go back to the old system we necessarily take


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