Government, and to the probability that | Protectionists-the Protectionist theory could not be far distant when Her Ma- of the old times had passed away, but jesty's present Advisers would be out of not more completely than the theories Office. The only hope as regarded secur- of Free Trade. He thought the time ing better commercial arrangements with had arrived when the country should France was that something like a busi- reconsider its fiscal system in the light ness-like tone should be introduced into of present circumstances. The time had the negotiations now pending. He asked come when we should decide as businessthe House to remember that the exports like men to adapt ourselves to our prefrom England to France of raw materials sent position, by practising Free Trade from 1863 to 1879 amounted in value to as far as it was possible, and Protection 60,000,000f., while the imports of raw as far as it was necessary. materials during the same period from France to England did not amount to one-third of that stated value. Our exports to France of articles of luxury were a mere trifle, while our imports from France of like goods amounted to 5,274,000f.; while of manufactures generally, our exports to France, as compared with our imports from France, were as 37,000,000f. in value to 72,000,000f. He had only, in conclusion, to say that the proposal he had placed on the Paper was based upon principles advocated by Adam Smith and strongly supported by John Stuart Mill. Adam Smith, in Wealth of Nations, said MR. SLAGG said, the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Mac Iver) had not made to him his meaning particularly clear, and he thought others were in the same condition of mind with himself as to what the hon. Gentleman really meant. The hon. Member referred, in the course of his speech, to the triumph of his opinions as illustrated by the return of Mr. Ecroyd for Preston. He had the advantage lately of reading the arguments of Mr. Ecroyd, and he must say that they conveyed to him no more concise impression of what was intended by the present movement in regard to Protection or Reciprocity than the arguments of the hon. Gentleman "The case in which it may sometimes be a matter of deliberation how far it is proper to who had spoken to-night. He believed continue the free importation of certain foreign Mr. Ecroyd wished to impose duties upon goods is when some foreign nation restrains by the food supply of the people of this high duties or prohibitions the importation of country; and if that was the idea which some of our manufactures in their country. Re- the hon. Gentleman wished to place upon venge in this case naturally dictates retaliation, and that we should impose the like duties and his banner to-night, and which he very prohibitions upon the importation of some or all wrongly attributed to the Tory Party as of their manufactures into ours. There may be being adopted generally by them, he good policy in retaliations of this kind when would find very little support in the there is a probability that they will procure the repeal of the high duties or prohibitions com- country; and none whatever from thinkplained of. The recovery of a great foreign ing Members in the House. The hon. market will generally more than compen- Gentleman said a great deal as to the sate the transitory inconvenience of paying French Treaty. He told them several dearer during a short time for some sorts of times that this country was being pergoods." sistently robbed by France; but he (Mr. Slagg) wished to ask whether it was robbery to buy a thing from France at a cheaper price than we could make it for ourselves? It seemed to him that And the following remarks were made by John Stuart Mill in his Principles of Political Economy :— "A country cannot be expected to renounce the power of taxing foreigners unless foreigners will in return practice towards itself the same forbearance. The only mode in which a country can save itself from being a loser by the revenue duties imposed by other countries on its commodities is to impose corresponding revenue duties on theirs, only it must take care that those duties be not so high as to exceed all that remains of the advantage of the trade, and put an end to importation altogether, causing an article to be produced at home or imported from another and dearer market." The authors of these opinions were not was not robbery, but a distinct advantage. Because the French were too short-sighted in regard to political economy to buy from us on the cheapest possible terms, it did not seem to him at all to mend matters that we should refuse to buy from them as cheaply as we possibly could do. The hon. Gentleman had further said a great deal on the subject of the bargaining process that had taken place in our negotiations with France, and particularly with regard to the Treaty of 1860, and he seemed to think there was something very wrong in that proceeding. He (Mr. Slagg) was not one of those who advocated the bargaining process in relation to commercial negotiations. He thought it was very much to be deplored, and it was only on the ground of the absolute necessity of presenting some concession to France by way of duties in order to induce her to make similar concessions to us that Mr. Cobden entertained the idea. Mr. Cobden did not look upon it, he was perfectly sure, in the light of making a concession to the disadvantage of England, for it was his intention not only to concede those duties to France, but simultaneously to concede them to all the world. At the close of the last Session the Prime Minister introduced into his Budget scheme a further concession on the Wine Duties in order to facilitate negotiations with the French in reference to further concession on their part. He was not sorry that that proposal fell through, because the fact that we had now nothing to offer France which she considered valuable as a concession really placed the subject on the true and pure basis of trade between the two countries. The bargaining process, he was happy to find, had now gone by altogether, so that the Treaty could never be reproached in the future with being accompanied by some process which was thought, in a measure at least, antagonistic to pure Free Trade principle. The hon. Gentleman again had said that we should be prepared to impose duties in our present negotiations with France. He (Mr. Slagg) entirely disagreed with that proposition. He thought it could not be shown that such a process would be of the slightest advantage. On the other hand, if it were possible to lower duties in the forthcoming negotiations, he should be very glad to do so, and the only retaliation which we could possibly make in the present situation was not in the direction of increasing duties further, but in the direction of lowering them. For instance, he thought it would be possible for us to make concessions in regard to the Wine Duties of Spain and Portugal, and thus to place those countries on a much more favourable footing than they occupy at the present moment. Such a step as that might possibly stimulate France to a better Mr. Slagg frame of mind in regard to her treatment of us. But the fact was really this-that the French did not any longer value a reduction of their Wine Duties. Having suffered from three or four bad harvests, they did not now produce as much wine as they could consume in their own country. He thought they had given up the idea altogether of providing this country with a lower class of light clarets, and we could dismiss altogether the notion that the French valued such concessions. The argument of the hon. Member was not new with regard to suffering industries and robbing the population of this country. It was heard whenever any particular industry was in a condition of temporary depression; and economists, such as the hon. Member for Birkenhead, seemed to have no other resource in their mind for the amelioration of a suffering industry than to rush to some form of taxation. Who paid the duties that were to be imposed? The hon. Gentleman did not go into that question. If he could assure him that the exporter paid the duties on their arrival on this side, he (Mr. Slagg) would go with him heartily; for he could not imagine a more delightful thing than to force the foreign exporter to pay the taxes in one's own country; but if such a thing were possible it would have been found out long ago. Not only England, but every other country, would have been in the game. They knew, however, as a matter of fact, that the consumer pays every farthing of the tax. He often noticed that the professors of Protection or Reciprocity stopped short at one very important point. They did not state upon what they were going to impose their duties. His task would have been very much easier to-night if the hon. Gentleman had told him precisely the method in which he intended to apply those duties; but the hon. Gentleman left that entirely to the imagination of his hearers, and certainly Reciprocitarian imaginations were very active indeed in the absence of facts and arguments. Would the hon. Gentleman impose a tax upon cotton? He, as a Lancashire Representative, would strongly resent any idea of that sort. He knew perfectly well it would handicap them in every market in the world, and they would then have to compete in third markets with their neighbours, the French, who were now nearly abreast of them in that indus- | sensible tone which had since sprung try. Would the hon. Gentleman put up, and anything which threatened to a tax upon iron? The loom-makers, destroy that Treaty was to him (Mr. so far as his own district was concerned, Slagg) a great political as well as a would certainly not stand that. They commercial mistake. In relation to what had a keen competition already with they were about to do with France, he other countries. They supplied ma- agreed with the hon. Gentleman when chinery for the whole of the world, and he said that they should allow no Treaty it would be out of the question to im- to be made which was worse than the pose a tax upon this material. It seemed Treaty now existing. The present almost a waste of time to ask if his Treaty had largely increased their comhon. Friend would impose a duty upon mercial intercourse and developed good corn? They knew the agricultural in- relations between the two countries. To dustry of this country was suffering very that extent it was a success, and he seriously indeed from foreign competi- maintained it would be wrong for this tion; but in what respect would a pro- country to put its name to a Treaty tective duty help it? Could it be shown which should be in the slightest degree that it would have the slightest effect worse than the present Treaty. They in lessening the burdens on agriculture? were led to suppose last year, in the corWhat was becoming more and more respondence between M. Léon Say and apparent every day was that agriculture Lord Granville, that the new Treaty required freedom of land, free sale, and would be based on an amelioration of the easy transfer. There was a peculiar existing Treaty; and he thought that danger, a peculiar impropriety, in push- all commercial bodies would support ing those retrograde notions forward at him in saying that they should decline, present. They were on the eve of nego- in the interests of Free Trade, to negotiating a Treaty with the French, and tiate unless they actually secured some if they allowed them to think it was the improvement on the old tariff. The hon. opinion of a large number of English Member said that Mr. Ecroyd would soon economists that it was a good thing for be among them, and that he would give us to impose duties on articles we import, them his views. He hoped he would. we had no excuse to ask them to remit He should like to have a discussion duties. To make such a proposition at on the whole question of Free Trade. the present time, he thought, would work It seemed very sad to have to make serious mischief. Again, as to robbery, the statement; but there were evidences, he did not assume that the trade was which could not be ignored, that these done between one country and another retrograde doctrines were taking hold in without profit. Merchants did not go some quarters of the community. He on importing for a series of years with- believed they came entirely from those out making something out of it. What interests which had suffered a tempohad been the result of their commercial rary depression from foreign competirelations with France? In 1859 their tion. When competition assailed them exports to that country were £4,000,000 through exports from foreign countries and their imports £16,000,000. They had a most wholesome stimulus was really increased since then, and their total trade applied to their industries. Improvewith France was now over £53,000,000.ments were introduced, economies were Surely that was a very great advantage to everyone who had dealt in the articles concerned. But there was another point on which he might dwell for a moment, and it consisted in the very great importance of trade in the political relations of the two countries. In the old days of Lord Palmerston everyone would remember that their political relations with France were of the most suspicious character. He was sure that he was not wrong in attributing to the Treaty, in a very great measure, the friendly and practised in every direction; and, as a thorough Free Trader, he welcomed imports of all descriptions as being a benefit to the consumer, and also as being an excellent stimulus to the manufacturer. When it was found that by no process of ingenuity or economy could he compete with the foreigner it was time for him to declare that the industry in question was no longer fitted for the country, and betake himself to some other more profitable and congenial occupation of his capital. IMPORT DUTY ON FOREIGN BARLEY things that evidently could not con AND MALT.-OBSERVATIONS. COLONEL BARNE, who had the following Amendment on the Paper :— "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to consider the desirability of placing a duty upon the import of foreign barley and malt," said, he was quite aware that in the present composition of the House of Commons his views on this question would receive no large amount of support; but, as sure as the sun would rise tomorrow, so sure would this subject be brought prominently forward during the next very few years. The artizans had now found out the fallacies which were imposed upon them by Cobden and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright) 30 years ago; and they were beginning to ask what was the use of having a cheap loaf when they had no money to buy it with? The supporters of the system of Free Trade contended when it was adopted that all the other nations of the world would follow our example; but America and France and Germany were too astute to take that course, and the consequence was that there was not an industry in the country which was not being undermined by foreign competition. He ventured to say that the negotiations which were pending for a new Treaty with France would entirely break down, because we had nothing to offer in return for concessions. The majority of the people of this country were and ought to be producers, and there could be no doubt that it was in the interests of the producers to prevent foreign competition. There was hardly a trade in England that was not suffering from foreign competition. The other day he observed from a paragraph in The Standard that at a meeting in Birmingham with reference to the proving of firearms, it was stated that, whereas 10 years ago 36 per cent more gun barrels were proved there than at Liège, that state of things had been rereversed, Belgium now proving as many more than England; whilst, moreover, we had been importing fowling-pieces, and paying away to foreigners money which, by having the article made at home, we ought to keep in our own pockets. At the present time our imports exceeded the value of our exports by £60,000,000 per annum, a state of tinue. A Return published in 1878 lowing the example of other nations, levy an import duty on foreign produce. THE PROBATE, LEGACY, AND SUCCES. SION DUTIES.-OBSERVATIONS. MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWRENCE said, that if the Forms of the House had permitted, he intended to have proposed"That no alteration of the Probate, Legacy, or Succession Duties can be satisfactory that does not at the same time provide for the imposition of the same duties upon freeholds as those imposed upon leaseholds." The changes made by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been just or equitable, although, now, useful alterations were proposed. Neither the late nor the present Government had taken upon themselves to look into this subject thoroughly, and to consider the enormous amount of freehold that was, at present, exempt from Probate Duty. He brought the subject before the House, not because he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer could be expected to make an alteration in the Budget now, but to impress on the House that the country was not satisfied with the present arrangement. He hoped the duties would be placed on a fair, equal, and just foundation. MR. GLADSTONE pointed out that, although the subjects of the speeches delivered that evening were of very great interest, yet they were entirely incongruous the one with the other, and the only feature they possessed in common was that no practical issue or decision could result from them. He appealed to those other hon. Members who had Notices on the Paper to forego them, and allow the House to go into Committee. It was of very considerable importance that the Government should be allowed to proceed with the practical proposals which were in the Tax Bill of the year. He did not say there was anything unreasonable in discussing any of those matters; but the House would see that the Government were greatly strained and pressed; and, as the time was now at hand when the change in the Probate Duty was appointed to take place, great inconvenience would arise, both in regard to that matter, and also in regard to the Income Tax, if there should be any longer delay in proceeding with the Bill. It would likewise be undesirable to be compelled to The tax MR. H. H. FOWLER said, he could not allow this clause to be passed without entering a protest against the continued imposition of the exorbitant duty upon tea, which he considered to be one of the prime necessaries of life. at present stood at 6d. in the pound, and the sum levied amounted, he believed, to between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000 sterling. He protested against the tax because he believed it to be an unequal and unjust tax, which pressed most heavily upon the working classes of this country. He would ask the Committee to consider what the tax was. It was a tax producing nearly £4,000,000 upon an article the annual value of which, when imported into this country, did not amount to £12,000,000. It was practically, therefore, a tax of from 30 to 40 per cent upon a prime necessary of life. He understood that one of the great principles which had been introduced into the fiscal arrangements of the country was that no taxes should be levied on actual necessities, but, as far as possible, should be confined to luxuries. Île maintained that all Customs duties were paid ultimately by the consumer, and this tax-a tax amounting to between 30 and 40 per cent upon the cost of the article-was paid principally by the working classes of the country. He knew that it was too late to raise the question except by way of protest; but he certainly did protest against the luxuries of the most luxurious age of the most luxurious country in Europe passing practically untaxed, while one of the necessaries which entered largely into the consumption of the working classes was taxed |