ciples, not only applicable to the peculiar circumstances of the present time, but applicable to all circumstances and to all time; and when we consider that there is a large quantity of land in the country held for the purpose of sport and not for the purpose of trade, we at once see how difficult the question is. It will require great consideration to do justice to it, and I am sure it would not be possible for us at present to settle it on a new basis. to sit up. They were to have a Morning Sitting to-morrow, and were promised an exciting day in the discussion of the Irish arrests, in which the constituents of many hon. Members took a great deal of interest. The Prime Minister had given the opportunity for the discussion; but they did not know whether the matter could be disposed of in the five hours which would be available at the Morning Sitting, and whether they might not be asked to sit up all night to-morrow, as they were doing now. Of course, he did not know whether they would sit up all night to-morrow; but he was looking on this as a matter of principle, and, consequently, contemplated that which possibly might occur. If the Government chose to bring in a large number of Bills, more than they could conveniently carry, they must take the consequence. If they were to pass the great Land Law of Ireland, somehow modified to suit the feelings of Members in different parts of the House, well and good; but the Government should give up some of their Bills. The sooner they gave up the Bribery Bill, the Ballot Bill, and the Bankruptcy Bill LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL hoped his hon. Friend would stick to his Amendment, and not be intimidated by the clamour around him. This was an important Bill, and when, at 10 minutes past 2 o'clock, a Motion was made to report Progress, the Prime Minister and the Government coolly proposed to the Committee to go through the Bill, because they had another legislative measure which must come on on a particular day at their command. ["Oh, oh!" and "Divide!"] Divide!"] Hon. Members might go on with these interruptions as long as they liked; but he would point out to them that they were only wasting time. There never was such a demand made upon the House the sooner they gave up the "three before-that because the Government B's" in favour of the "three F's"-the had a legislative measure of greater or better. It was too much to expect of less importance to pass, therefore the hon. Members that they would put themHouse of Commons was to be kept sit- selves to inconvenience to pass a whole ting until 3 or 4 in the morning in order | host of measures which were not reto pass another Bill, and no proposal to quired by the country. Hon. Members report Progress was to be considered. opposite had objected very much to what Never before had a Prime Minister en- they called the "Imperialism" of the deavoured to pass off such conduct on late Government; but there was a worse an Opposition. For the sake of principle word, which could be aptly used in con-[Laughter.]-hon. Members seemed to nection with the present Government, think there was no principle involved in and that was "imperiousness." dealing with the finances of the country at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning; but what would have been said of the Conservative Government if it had attempted to do this? For the sake of principle, and as a protest against the voting of money in Money Bills at a quarter past 2 in the morning, he hoped the Motion would be pressed. MR. WARTON felt it to be his duty to support the Motion for reporting Progress. He felt the appeal-the almost personal appeal of the Premier, who said that, though it was extremely inconvenient for him to sit up, he would sit up to any time if necessary. But he would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that it was not necessary for him MR. DODDS said, there were a considerable number of Amendments yet to be disposed of, but all of them had reference to those parts of the Bill relating to Probate and Legacy Duty, and he was sure it would not take longer to dispose of them than the time it would occupy the Chairman in reading them. The Amendments were mere formal matters, and he saw no reason why the Bill should not be gone through in another 10 minutes. ["No, no!"] Hon. Members said "No;" but he said "Yes." He challenged contradiction when he said that there was not one Amendment which, unless it were for the purpose of wasting the time of the Committee, would take more than five minutes to dispose of. He hoped the Motion for reporting Progress would be withdrawn. SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTON said, the answer of the Prime Minister entirely corroborated what he had said, because the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the question of the payment of Income Tax under Schedule A was so important that it could hardly be discussed across the Table of the House. MR. GLADSTONE: No, no. SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTON: I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that. MR. GLADSTONE: My hon. Friend has entirely misunderstood me. This is a proposal to introduce an entirely new method of dealing with the Income Tax; and the question is, whether the owners of land shall be excused for paying the tax in regard to that part of their property which is unoccupied, and for which they do not realize anything. This is a large and difficult question, which will have to be carefully considered. There is no proposal before me; and what I say is, that I cannot undertake to discuss the question, under the circumstances, at the present moment. The matter may be opened up on some future occasion, and we may have to ask the House to deal with it. With regard to the statement of the noble Lord as to my supposed declaration with reference to reporting Progress, what I really said was that, so far as I was aware, there was no question after Clause 16 that was a contested question. MR. MAGNIAC said, the Prime Minister had misunderstood the remarks which had fallen from him. He had made a definite proposal, and it was one which need not delay the passage of the Bill for one minute. He had requested the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether he could not deal with Schedule A as his Predecessor had dealt with Schedule B. He hoped the Government would consider the matter, and, if possible, do something without delay; but if, at the beginning of next Session, he found that nothing had been done, be would himself make some proposal on the subject. MR. GREGORY said, he was responsible for some of the Amendments to subsequent clauses of the measure; but he could not flatter himself that they would all be agreed to. If he thought Mr. Dodds they would, he should be easy in his mind; but he was afraid that some of them might lead to discussion. He did not wish to delay the Bill for a moment, and he therefore hoped the hon. Member would withdraw the Motion. He, for one, was willing to go on with the Bill. MR. HEALY said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think it a great crime on the part of the Committee to move to report Progress. The Government had wasted three months of this Session with the Coercion Bill, and if the Prime Minister now found it necessary for him to keep up during a large portion of the night to pass this Bill, he must remember that he had only himself and the Chief Secretary to blame; and when he appealed to the House he must remember that there was a section it was quite in vain to appeal to. It was quite in vain to appeal to men of his (Mr. Healy's) way of thinking, anyhow; and, so long as they could not get a civil answer from any Member of the Government, it would continue to be in vain. So long, moreover, as their countrymen continued to be arrested it would be in vain. These arrests would never be forgotten in Ireland-never. COLONEL RUGGLES-BRISE believed a great many hon. Members wished to express their opinion of the clause of the Bill at which they had arrived. The clause dealing with Schedule A was a most important one, especially to people in the country. He had every sympathy for the state of health of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and he was sure most hon. Members would agree with him in thinking that he ought to be in bed. He (Colonel Ruggles-Brise) fully, also, sympathized with the right hon. Gentleman in the sense of duty which induced him to ask them to continue the discussion of the Bill to-night; but, at the same time, he must point out that the argument on which the request for continued sitting was based had no effect whatever on that (the Opposition) side of the House. They did not see the force of these measures before the House. SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT would make an appeal to the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman saw the position in which the Committee was now placed-he saw that it was absolutely impossible to go on with the Bill. The question was, was it wise to persevere? The right hon. Gentleman did | this was rendered necessary-as the Irish not come down to the House very often Members alleged-through the misconduring the time the late Government duct of the Chief Secretary. All these were in power; but if he had he would difficulties had arisen through the action have seen what little support the Go- of the Government; and an appeal of vernment got from the Opposition. It this kind, therefore, certainly came with was now nearly half-past 2 in the a bad grace from the Treasury Bench. morning, and, considering that they had The question before the Committee in to come down again at 2 in the after- the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill noon, it was unreasonable to ask them to was one of considerable difficulty, and proceed with the Bill. His only anxiety he failed to see on what grounds the was to promote the Business of the Government could ask them to go into country, and he certainly did not think the discussion at this hour. The thing that the way to promote Business was to could not be done. He had had some remain there wrangling at half-past 2 little experience in the last Parliament in the morning. of matters of this sort, and he had never seen any good to anyone come out of an attempt on the part of the Government to force on Business at such an hour, against the will of a large section of the House. MR. BIGGAR said, there was another point made by the Prime Minister beyond those which had been mentioned by previous speakers, which appeared to him a very weak one. The right hon. Gentleman had appealed to the Committee to do nothing to interfere with the great Irish Land Bill. But the great Irish Land Bill now before the House was not a good measure. It was very complicated no doubt, a good measure for the lawyers; but for the people of Ireland MR. MARJORIBANKS: I rise to Order. I wish to ask whether the hon. Member is in Order in mentioning the provisions of that Bill? THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not in Order in mentioning the provisions of the Irish Land Bill. MR. BIGGAR said, he had said all he had to say on that subject. The hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Healy) had mentioned another matter to which he (Mr. Biggar) wished to draw the attention of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant and the Prime Minister. The hon. Member had referred to the conduct of the Chief Secretary towards the Irish Members; and he thought that if the right hon. Gentleman were to get a caution from the Prime Minister with regard to his general behaviour and his duty, the House would be able to get along more smoothly, and Irish Members would be more inclined to assist the Government. At present they were in this position. It was nearly 3 o'clock in the morning; they had to hear the opening speech of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) with regard to the Irish arrests, and they had to come down to the House at 2 o'clock in the afternoon to continue the discussion. All MR. GLADSTONE agreed to Progress being reported, finding a section of the House though, he believed, a very small section-determined to impede the progress of the Committee. He tendered his most sincere thanks to hon. Gentlemen who had offered to sacrifice their own convenience on this occasion. Question put, and agreed to. Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday. LAND TAX COMMISSIONERS' NAMES BILL.-BILL 126.] (Mr. John Holms, Lord Frederick Cavendish.) COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, Chair."-(Mr. J. Heims.) "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." (Mr. Healy.) MR. J. HOLMS appealed to hon. Members to allow the House to go into Committee on this Bill, which had already received the sanction of the House. MR. SEXTON said, the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken wanted to put the House off the scent. Irish Business of urgent importance had to be brought before the House to-night, and Irish Members had been waiting for hours. Two hours ago they would have been justified in asking that other Business should cease. MR. R. N. FOWLER said, he believed | made without reference to politics, but this Bill was not opposed, and he hoped solely with reference to their practical the Motion for going into Committee knowledge of the City of London; and would be acceded to. he appealed to the House to allow the Motion to pass. Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 11; Noes 80: Majority 69.—(Div. List, No. 209.) MR. BIGGAR begged to move, "That this House do now adjourn." MR. HEALY rose to second the Motion, but MR. SPEAKER pointed out that the hon. Member for Wexford, having already moved the adjournment of the debate, was out of Order in seconding the present Motion. No other hon. Member rising to second the Motion, it was not put. Original Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 79; No 1: Majority 78.-(Div. List, No. 210.) Main Question "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Preamble be postponed." Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."(Mr. Healy.) MR. BIGGAR said, there was room for an enormous deal of alteration and amendment in the Bill. It was a Bill that ought not to have passed the second reading, as it did, without discussion. He supported the adjournment, in order to have an opportunity of looking the Bill over. MR. T. P. O'CONNOR hoped the Government would not put the Committee to the trouble of a division. He should vote against them if they did. Eleven hours from the present time there was to be a Morning Sitting, when Members from Ireland were to bring before the House a most important Motion, dealing with the whole question of the Irish Executive, and some of them required a little preparation. MR. R. N. FOWLER said, that this was a purely formal matter. The Bill had previously been assented to, and the names to be submitted were those of gentlemen of high position in the City of London. The selection had been Mr. Sexton LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH sympathized with hon. Members who desired not to be detained; and if this Bill had been allowed to go through Committee, instead of occupying half-an-hour, it would not have occupied a minute. MR. CALLAN appealed to the hon. Member for Cavan to allow the Bill to go on. MR. BIGGAR said, it seemed to him there was something very peculiar under this Bill; and he thought they ought to have the names before them before going on with it. Question put. Noes 78: Majority 69.-(Div. List, The Committee divided:-Ayes 9; No. 211.) Question again proposed, "That the Preamble be postponed." MR. O'DONNELL hoped the Government would concede what was asked. He observed that when the Liberals were in Opposition the iniquity of the Land Tax was a fertile theme of indignant denunciation; but now the House was told that this Bill could be passed through without even the preliminary communication to the House of the names of the Commissioners to be appointed. It was not creditable on the part of the Liberals to treat the question in that manner; and he hoped the Government would accede to the request, and hasten on to the Motion which the Irish Members had at heart. It did not show a great amount of courage on the part of the Government to persist in forcing opposition to the Irish question at such an hour in the morning. He did not wish to carry his opposition to the length of endeavouring to throw out the Bill; but he thought it should be brought on at another time, and that no further opposition should be advanced against the discussion of the Irish Motion. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. O' Donnell.) MR. W. E. FORSTER: I think everyone is aware that we might now have been hearing the hon. Member for Long ford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) but for the Motions which have been made. No one doubts that if the usual course had been adopted, the Bill before us would have passed as a matter of course. It has been very late for some hours for the hon. Member to bring forward his Motion, but he will be able to speak in reply afterwards; and if the hon. Member who has just sat down thinks I intend to take an advantage I will state that, wishing myself to be prepared to take part in the debate to-day, I shall go to bed. MR. HEALY thought that as the spirit of contention had left the House they might proceed more quietly. He pointed out that at half-past 2 the right hon. Gentleman on the opposite side had moved that the Speaker should leave the Chair; and he stated that the Irish Members were determined, when matters of this kind were brought on at that hour in the morning, to oppose them. There was not the slightest necessity for the Government to go on with this measure, and it was they who delayed Business. Whenever an appeal was made to the Irish Members under such circumstances, they would be obliged to remind the Government that they had wasted three months of the Session in legislation of a most invidious character; and when Motions of this kind were made at 2 o'clock in the morning, he should exhaust his rights as far as he could in opposition. Question put. said, he thought most Members of the House would agree that hardly ever had anyone risen to address an Assembly like this under conditions of such great disadvantage. The main object one might have in stating a case of this kind was almost entirely frustrated by the lateness of the hour and the thinness of the House, and by a natural objection to keeping too long an unwilling audience; while the Minister of State to whom he wished particularly to appeal had been in such a hurry to get away from his duties that he had gone home to bed, and left the House to manage affairs as best they could without him. Under those circumstances, he should not make a lengthy statement of the case he had to urge against the Government. The points he wished to state were those set forth in the Motion. The Irish Members con The Committee divided:-Ayes 9; Noes 77: Majority 68.-(Div. List, tended that the arrest of Mr. Dillon was No. 212.) an act of unspeakable discredit to the Question again proposed, "That the Government, and an act which would Preamble be postponed." MR. HEALY said, the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) had informed him that he would be obliged to go home and postpone his Motion, if he (Mr. Healy) persisted in dividing the House. If he could see his way out of that difficulty he would stop all night; but if Motions to take such measures at that time were made, he should pursue the same course as he now had. Question put, and negatived. Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow, at Two of the clock. discredit the Government so long as they remained in power. They had heard some extraordinary casuistry not long ago with regard to the complaint that the Government had arrested Mr. Dillon in order to remove out of their way a political opponent who was coming to oppose them in the House. It was well known to all his Colleagues that the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon) had announced in Dublin his intention to come to the House to expose the results of the policy of the Government in Ireland in enforcing evictions by the aid of military and police. He said-" We shall make an attempt in the House of Commons next week to expose the policy of the Government;" and those who [First Night.] |