Hutchinson, V. (E. Hawke, L. Melville, V. Hylton, L. (V. Grey de Wilton.) Harris, L. On the Motion of the Marquess of SALISBURY, clause further amended, in Kintore, L. (E. Kin- page 1, line 25, by leaving out from ("pounds") to end. tore.) Lamington, L. Bath and Wells, L. Bp. Leconfield, L. Gloucester and Bristol, Clause, as amended, agreed to, and Lovel and Holland, L. ordered to stand part of the Bill. (E. Egmont.) Northwick, L. Oranmore and Browne, L. Ormathwaite, L. Poltimore, L. Clause 4 (Approval of schemes made under 16 & 17 Vict. c. 137, ss. 54-60). THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in rising to move, as an Amendment, in Shute, L. (V. Barring-clause, to substitute "the Committee of page 2, line 27, and throughout the ton.) Silchester, L. (E. Long-Council on Education," for "one of Her ford.) Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State," Stanley of Alderley, L. said, he was not quite clear how the Stewart of Garlies, L. clause was intended to work. Before (E. Galloway.) Strathspey, L. (E. Sea- proposed alterations were laid before field.) Parliament they were to be submitted to Talbot de Malahide, L. the Home Secretary; and he was not Tollemache, L. aware that at the Home Office there was Tredegar, L. Tyrone, L. (M. Water- NOT-CONTENTS. Selborne, L. (L. Chan- Annaly, L. cellor.) Bedford, D. Ashburton, L. any machinery corresponding to that of the Education Department for inquiring into the details of educational schemes. He did not know whether the Home Secretary was to have the power of altering or modifying any scheme before it was petitioned against that was now exercised by the Education Department. The Home Office did not seem to be a very suitable Office for such revision; it had no sub-departments to which the work could be referred. The practical result would be that the work of the Charity Commissioners would be entirely unsupervized, and the Home Office would practically allow them to do pretty much what they pleased. This method Kenmare, L. (E. Ken-watched with much jealousy, or it would of proceeding by schemes required to be Blachford, L. Lansdowne, M. Northampton, M. Airlie, E. Camperdown, E. Churchill, L. Derby, E. Clinton, L. Ducie, E. Colchester, L. Fortescue, E. Granville, E. Kimberley, E. mare.) Lovelace, E. Minto, E. Leigh, L. Morley, E. Lyttelton, L. Northbrook, E. Sydney, E. Powerscourt, V. London, L. Bp. Coleridge, L. Lawrence, L. result in giving a Public Department unchecked power to make Acts of Parliament. He feared the effect of the proposed change would be to diminish the checks which now existed upon the acts of the Commissioners, and that there would be no check left over any proposals, except the power of moving an Address during the 60 days that a scheme was before Parliament. For the several reasons he had given, he would move the Amendment of which he had given | ment, or part of an endowment, to eduNotice. cational purposes, the scheme, or part Moved, In page 2, line 27, and through-ferred to the Education Department; of a scheme relative to it, might be reout, to substitute ("the Committee of Council on Education") for ("one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State")-(The Marquess of Salisbury.) but, with the large mass of business already on its hands, he should object to what was not germane to it being thrown upon the Department. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he could not agree to the suggestion of the noble Earl the President of the Council. They knew something of the Education Department, which, on the whole, had given satisfaction; but the Home Office, so far as it had meddled with this sort of business, had not been so successful. On question, resolved in the affirmative. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that all that was done was to substitute the Home Secretary for the discharge of functions which, under the Endowed Schools Act, were assigned to the Education Department, in respect of proposals which were not educational in their character, and in which, therefore, the Education Department was not concerned. Already the Home Office exercised, as to Scotland, not merely a concurrent, but, in some respects, an overruling supervision, even in regard to matters that were educational; and On the Motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, in many local matters of another kind, the following Amendment made:such as were usually made the subject In page 2, line 40, after ("either") add of Provisional Orders, it had machinery("on such (if any) of the grounds of appeal which enabled it to do exactly what mentioned in that Act as may be applicable to was done by the Education Department the case, or.") with regard to educational charities. The action of the Home Office in such matters was well known and understood, and it would be less anomalous to charge the Home Office with this business than to devolve on the Education Department responsibility for charities that were not educational. EARL CAIRNS said, that the majority of the schemes in question were connected with education; and, as far as he was acquainted with the Home Office, he could not help thinking it was unfitted to deal with them. EARL SPENCER said, the Education Office might feel flattered by the way it had been referred to, and the confidence that had been expressed in it; but he did not relish the suggestion that it should deal with charities not connected with education. There might, perhaps, be some convenience in having educational schemes referred to the Education Department; but there many other charity schemes in no way connected with education, and he would rather not have them referred to the Education Department. While, however, he objected to the clause as altered by the proposed Amendment, he was perfectly willing to consent to such a modification of it as would provide that if the Home Office wished to divert or change any endow : On the Motion of Lord CLINTON, the insertion of the following Proviso in page 2, after line 36, was agreed to: "Provided that no scheme shall be approved deals with any property originally given to or certified by the Board under this clause which charitable uses less than fifty years before the date of the approval or certifying of the scheme, except upon the application of the trustees of the charity, or a majority of them, made in the table Trusts Act, 1860." manner prescribed by section four of the Chari Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 5 (Act of Parliament relating to charity to be alterable as provisions of founder). On the Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, made:-In page 3, line 9, after ("any ") the following Amendments add ("private"); line 14, after ("founder") insert ("in the case of a charity having a founder "). On the Motion of Earl CAIRNS, from the word "Provided" in line 15, to the word "Court" in line 20 was struck out of the clause. Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 6 (Modification in certain cases of objects of charity) agreed to. EARL CAIRNS, in moving the omission of the clause, said, that there were not sufficient safeguards for the protection of trustees and others. It provided for the recovery of money improperly expended out of charitable funds; but it would make the Charity Commissioners both the prosecutors and the judges. Clause 7 (Recovery of money impro- | which followed this in the Bill introperly expended out of charity). duced in 1878, with which he believed his noble and learned Friend had been satisfied; and this clause was wanted, to enable the Commissioners to have access to the Court in cases, with the circumstances of which they were already well acquainted, and also for the security and proper management of charity funds which might happen to be in Court. He thought it desirable that in certain cases the Charity Commissioners should have power to apply to the Court for directions as to the management of property. The costs would be paid out of the funds only when the Court so Moved, "To leave out the Clause."-(The Earl Cairns.) EARL CAIRNS repeated his belief that, as costs would be incurred in every case, the difficulty he anticipated would be certain to occur. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the power proposed to be given by this clause would, in all cases, be sub-ordered. ject to an appeal to the Chancery Division. Without it, there would be no effectual audit of the accounts, now required by law to be rendered to the Charity Commissioners; and it would save the expense of litigation, in cases of clear and undisputed liability. It was only in cases in which a prima facie case had been made out that the Board might make an order, and if it were found that there was any real ground for contesting the matter in a Court of Law no order could be made. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY ported the Amendment. sup On Question, resolved in the affirmative. Clause 8 (Power of Court to remit to Charity Commissioners to frame scheme) agreed to. Clause 9 (Power of Board to apply to Court respecting property of charity). EARL CAIRNS said, that the Charity Commissioners had not got a staff of solicitors or counsel; but by the clause, for the first time, they were themselves to appear in court. He wanted to know whether the Attorney General was superseded? If the Charity Commissioners were to be heard, they would have to employ counsel, and then would arise the question of costs, as to which he wished to have some information. On the whole, he regarded the clause as unsafe, and he therefore moved its omission. Moved, "To leave out the Clause.". (The Earl Cairns.) THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that there were similar clauses to those On question, resolved in the affirmative. Clauses 10 to 12, inclusive, agreed to. On the Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, Clause 13 (Production of deeds), struck out. Clauses 14 to 25, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments. On the Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, the following new Clause added, to follow Clause 25: (Appointment of inspectors.) "It shall be lawful for Her Majesty, by warrant under Her sign manual, to appoint such number of Assistant Charity Commis. sioners, permanent or temporary, as Her Majesty may think necessary for the purpose of enabling the Board to perform the duties for the time Parliament. being imposed upon them under any Act of under this Act shall perform such duties as may "The Assistant Commissioners appointed be assigned to them by the Board with the sanction of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, and shall be possessed of the same powers, authorities, and jurisdiction, and be entitled to the same privileges as the inspectors appointed under the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853. "There shall be repealed the third section of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1855, and so much of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853, as relates to the appointment of inspectors, and so much of section three of the Endowed Schools Act, 1874, as relates to the appointment of Assistant to any appointment made previously to the Commissioners, without prejudice nevertheless passing of this Act, in pursuance of the enact ments so repealed, or any of such enactments." Remaining clause agreed to. Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 96.) House adjourned at a quarter before Nine o'clock, to Friday next, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, 24th May, 1881. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE Report House of Commons (Accommodation) [No. 248]. PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading-Local Government Provisional Orders (Birmingham, Tame, and Rea, &c.) [160]; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Ballymena, &c.) [173]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) [167]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) [168]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3)* [169]. Committee-Local Government Provisional Orders (Askern, &c.) * [152], discharged. Report-Gas Provisional Orders* [147]. Withdrawn-Church Patronage* [30]. The House met at Two of the clock. QUESTIONS. 10 SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, I personally see no objection to the hon. Member's proposal; and the Foreign Office are in communication with the Board of Trade as to the best mode of meeting his wishes. GAME ACT-DEALING IN GAME. MR. P. A. TAYLOR asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the fact that on April 30th, at the Bala Petty Sessions, Catherine Owen, of the Lion Hotel, Bala, was fined £50 for having, on the 11th February, bought ten pheasants from Robert Davies, not being then a person entitled to deal in game according to the statute, it being admitted on the part of the prosecution that Catherine Owen could not, at the time of purchase, have been aware that the pheasants had been poached; and, if he will cause inquiry to be made into the circumstances which could justify a sentence of such apparent severity? SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, I have not got the entire facts of the case; but I think it is one very proper for inquiry. I have previously expressed my opinion as to the penal clauses of the Game Act-that they require to be entirely revised and altered, and none more than those clauses which relate to the sale of game. I have been looking into the Act, and, as far as I can make out, if a gentleman shoots pheasants on his own ground and sells them to his friend, the gentleman who has TRADE AND COMMERCE-REPORTS OF got the pheasants is liable to a penalty SECRETARIES OF LEGATION AND CONSULS. MR. R. H. PAGET asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he will be good enough to issue instructions to Her Majesty's Secretaries of Legation and Consuls to prepare their Trade Reports on the Manufactures, Commerce, &c. in the Countries in which they reside, in such a manner that the information afforded might be separately printed, and presented to Parliament under two distinct heads of Agriculture and Commerce, with a view of giving some practical effect to the recent acceptance by the First Lord of the Treasury of the principle of the establishment of a Department of State with separate divisions for Agriculture and Commerce ? whether the action of the Board has been taken in accordance with any directions given by the Treasury; and, if so, whether he will be good enough to state the grounds on which the redundant clerks have been deprived of their promotion? LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: Sir, measures are in contemplation for improving and simplifying the bonding and warehousing system in the Revenue Departments; and, in view of economies which it is hoped may be effected, the Board of Customs have suspended the filling up of vacancies in the upper division of clerks in the warehousing departments. This was done by the Board on their own responsibility; but the Treasury entirely approve the course pursued. I must remind the House that the selection of redundant clerks for the upper division is absolutely according to merit, and not of seniority; nor are vacancies necessarily filled up from the redundants in the Department in which they occur. STATE OF IRELAND-"SLAVE DRIVING" IN GALWAY. MR. T. P. O'CONNOR asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware, in reference to a letter published in the "Newcastle Chronicle," on "duty work," accompanied by physical punishment, that such labour was exacted in Barna and the neighbourhood from time immemorial until the establishment of the Land League in the district last year; whether he is aware that up to a recent period the tenants on some of these estates were obliged to give fifty-two days' labour in each year, at the rate of sixpence for one half, and eightpence for the other half of the year; whether the tenants thus employed were superintended by a "driver" armed with a blackthorn stick, and occasionally struck, many of the persons thus punished being still to be found in the village of Barna; and, whether he will accept the proposal of Mr. Patterson to have his contradiction and Mr. Patterson's assertion of NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM, SOUTH these facts testified by an investigation KENSINGTON. MR. FIRTH asked the senior Member for the University of Cambridge, Why the Trustees of the South Kensington Natural History Museum have withdrawn their announcement that such Museum would be open from May to the middle of July on Mondays and Saturdays till 8 p.m., and from the middle of July till the end of August, on the same days, till 7 p.m.; and, whether they are prepared to restore to the public the facilities of evening attendance which were originally given? MR. SPENCER WALPOLE, in reply, said, that the Trustees had every disposition to give the public the full benefit of the Natural History Collection at South Kensington as far they could; but the arrangements for the Collection were still so imperfect, and the staff of assistants and attendants necessary for its superintendence was still so scanty, that he was afraid they could not open it till a later hour than they did at present. But as soon as they were able the Trustees would re-consider that matter, and, in the meantime, they would take care that the public should have such facilities for attendance as the circumstances would permit. Mr. Healy on the spot? MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, I have already answered one or two Questions on this subject. With regard to the first part of the Question, I have stated on information forwarded to me that the account was apparently without foundation, and certainly I am not aware that "duty work," accompanied by phy sical punishment, was exacted up to last year. The question is not as to what happens now, but as to what happened at some previous periods. It is not the business of the Government to investigate into what has happened in former times. It is our business to make the most strict investigation, if we had reason to believe or suspect that the state of things represented was going on now; and, if so, upon receipt of anything approaching reasonable information, we will take care that the most strict inquiry is made, and a prosecution instituted against anybody who offends. But we have sufficient to do with the state of Ireland as it is without attempting to find out what may have been the state of things in former times. In making this statement, I am not to be supposed as admitting the truth of what is alleged to have happened lately. Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Sir, I will read a letter which I have received in |