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ments so repealed, or any of such enact- SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, ments."

I personally see no objection to the hon. Remaining clause agreed to.

Member's proposal; and the Foreign

Office are in communication with the Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. Board of Trade as to the best mode of 96.)

meeting his wishes.
House journed at a quarter before
Nine o'clock, to Friday next,

GAME ACT-DEALING IN GAME. half past Ten o'clock.

MR. P. A. TAYLOR asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the fact that on April

30th, at the Bala Petty Sessions, CatheHOUSE OF COMMONS,

rine Owen, of the Lion Hotel, Bala, was fined £50 for having, on the 11th Feb

ruary, bought ten pheasants from RoTuesday, 21th May, 1881. bert Davies, not being then a person

entitled to deal in game according to the statute, it being admitted on the

part of the prosecution that Catherine MINUTES.) - Select COMMITTEE -- Report - Owen could not, at the time of purchase,

House of Commons (Accommodation) [No. have been aware that the pheasants had 248).

been poached; and, if he will cause inPublic Bills-Second Reading- Local Govern

ment Provisional Orders (Birmingham, Tame, quiry to be made into the circumstances
and Rea, &c.) * [160]; Local Government which could justify a sentence of such
(Ireland) Provisional Orders (Ballymena, apparent severity ?
&c.) * [173]; Tramways Orders Confirma- SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT : Sir,
tion (No. 1) * [167]; Tramways Orders Con. I have not got the entire facts of the
firmation (No. 2)* [168]; Tramways Orders
Confirmation (No. 3) * [169].

case; but I think it is one very proper Committee-Local Government Provisional Or- for inquiry. I have previously expressed

ders (Askern, &c.)* [152], discharged. my opinion as to the penal clauses of Report-Gas Provisional Orders * [147].

the Game Act--that they require to be Withdrawn-Church Patronage * [30].

entirely revised and altered, and none more than those clauses which relate

to the sale of game. I have been lookThe House met at Two of the clock.

ing into the Act, and, as far as I can QUESTIONS.

make out, if a gentleman shoots pheasants on his own ground and sells them

to his friend, the gentleman who has TRADE AND COMMERCE-REPORTS OF got the pheasants is liable to a penalty SECRETARIES OF LEGATION AND of £2 for every such pheasant in his CONSULS.

possession; and if a gentleman likes to Mr. R. H. PAGET asked the Under does not want them for his own use,

present pheasants to any person who Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,

and who converts them into money by Whether he will be good enough to issue instructions to Her Majesty's Se- selling them, the person selling them is

liable to a fine of £5 for every such cretaries of Legation and Consuls to prepare their Trade Reports on the pheasant. If a law of that kind is on

forced in its rigour, I think everyone
Manufactures, Commerce, &c. in the
Countries in which they reside, in such will see that the sooner it is altered the

a manner that the information afforded
might be separately printed, and pre-
sented to Parliament under two distinct

CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT-REDUNheads of Agriculture and Commerce,

DANT OFFICERS, with a view of giving some practical MR. HEALY asked the Secretary to effect to the recent acceptance by the the Treasury, Whether he is aware that First Lord of the Treasury of the prin- the promotion of redundaut clerks to ciple of the establishment of a Depart- the higher division in the warehousing ment of State with separate divisions departments in the Customs has been for Agriculture and Commerce ? suspended by the Board of Customs;

whether the action of the Board has

STATE OF IRELAND_“SLAVE been taken in accordance with any di

DRIVING” IN GALWAY. rections given by the Treasury; and, if so, whether he will be good enough to

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR asked the Chief state the grounds on which the redun- Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of dant clerks have been deprived of their Ireland, Whether he is aware, in referpromotion ?

ence to a letter published in the “ Nero LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: castle Chronicle," on “duty work," acSir, measures are in contemplation for companied by physical punishment, that improving and simplifying the bonding such labour was exacted in Barna and and warehousing system in the Revenue the neighbourhood from time immeDepartments; and, in view of economies morial until the establishment of the which it is hoped may be effected, the Land League in the district last year; Board of Customs have suspended the whether he is aware that up to a recent filling up of vacancies in the upper di- period the tenants on some of these vision of clerks in the warehousing de- estates were obliged to give fifty-two partments. This was done by the Board days' labour in each year, at the rate of on their own responsibility; but the sixpence for one half, and eightpence for Treasury entirely approve the course the other half of the

year; whether the pursued. I must remind the House tenants thus employed were superin. that the selection of redundant clerks tended by a driver” armed with a for the upper division is absolutely ac- blackthorn stick, and occasionally struck, cording to merit, and not of seniority; many of the persons thus punished being nor are vacancies necessarily filled up

still to be found in the village of Barna; from the redundants in the Department and, whether he will accept the proposal in which they occur.

of Mr. Patterson to have his contradic.

tion and Mr. Patterson's assertion of NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM, SOUTH these facts testified by an investigation

on the spot? KENSINGTON.

MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, I have Mr. FIRTH asked the senior Mem- already answered one or two Questions ber for the University of Cambridge, on this subject. With regard to the Why the Trustees of the South Ken- first part of the Question, I have stated sington Natural flistory Museum have on information forwarded to me that withdrawn their announcement that the account was apparently without such Museum would be open from May foundation, and certainly I am not aware to the middle of July on Mondays and that “duty work,” accompanied by phy. Saturdays till 8 p.m., and from the sical punishment, was exacted up to last middle of July till the end of August, on year. The question is not as to what the same days, till 7 p.m.; and, whether happens now, but as to what happened

7 they are prepared to restore to the pub- at some previous periods. It is not the lic the facilities of evening attendance business of the Government to investigate which were originally given ?

into what has happened in former times. Mr. SPENCER WALPOLE, in reply, It is our business to make the most strict said, that the Trustees had every dis- investigation, if we had reason to believe position to give the public the full bene- or suspect that the state of things repre• fit of the Natural History Collection at sented was going on now; and, if so, upon South Kensington as far they could ; receipt of anything approaching reasonbut the arrangements for the Collection able information, we will take care that were still so imperfect, and the staff of the most strict inquiry is made, and a assistants and attendants necessary for prosecution instituted against anybody its superintendence was still so scanty, who offends. But we have sufficient to that he was afraid they could not open do with the state of Ireland as it is it till a later hour than they did at pre- without attempting to find out what may sent. But as soon as they were able the have been the state of things in former Trustees would re-consider that matter, times. In making this statement, I am not and, in the meantime, they would take to be supposed as admitting the truth of care that the public should have such what is alleged to have happened lately, facilities for attendance as the circum- Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Sir, I will stances would permit.

read a letter which I have received in 1lr. Hеаlу

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reference to this Question. The right ask the Under Secretary of State for hon. Gentleman has frequently given Foreign Affairs, Whether there has been contradictions to the fact, and his con- any correspondence between Her Matradictions were distinct that duty jesty's Government and the Italian Gowork" of this kind, accompanied by vernment with regard to Tripoli; and, physical punishment, never took place if so, whether that correspondence bears

. Mr. W. E. FORSTER: I never said upon the alleged communications by

Lord Salisbury with reference to the Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Oh, but you occupation of Tripoli by Italian forces did. ["Order!"]

as compensation for the entry of France MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member upon Tunis ? said, he wished to alter the is entitled to put a Question to the right second part of the Question, and to ask, hon. Gentleman bearing upon the Ques- If there was any record in the Foreign tion which he has already asked; but Office of those alleged communications he cannot enter into a debate.

by Lord Salisbury in reference to the MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I will not occupation of Tripoli ? enter into a debate with the right hon. Sir CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, I Gentleman. I wish to state that I do will answer the Question as placed on the not at all want to cast any slur on the Paper; but I must ask my hon. Friend veracity of the right hon. Gentleman; not to ask Questions of which no Notice but I would ask him, whether it is true has been given. that, a short time ago, a man named MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: I shall John Molloy was employed as a "driver" be happy to defer it. on one of the estates outside Galway ; SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I will whether there lives still in Galway per- answer it. No correspondence has taken sons who have been subjected to phy- place between Her Majesty's Governsical punishment by this John Molloy; ment and that of Italy with regard to and, whether in view of that case, he Tripoli. will withdraw the slur he has cast on MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD gave Notice the veracity of Mr. Patterson, my cor- that on Thursday he would ask a Quesrespondent?

tion with respect to the designs of Italy Wr. W. E. FORSTER: The hon upon Tripoli. Member must give Notice of that Question. All I can say is, that I inquired FRANCE-AFFAIRS OF TUNIS. into these allegations, and the answer I THE EARL OF BECTIVE asked the received led me to believe that there Under Secretary of State for Foreign was no truth in them. I cannot under- Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government is take to find out what has happened in aware that Lardi Zarruck, President of previous times. I do not believe that the Tunis Municipal Council, a gentleat any recent period such a thing as an well known to European residents pbysical punishment of the kind de- for his integrity and administrative scribed has happened; but I certainly ability, has been driven into exile by never stated—I could not think of stating the action of M. Roustan, because he -that it never happened in past times. advised the Bey not to sign the Treaty

Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: I am sorry, foreed upon him by the French GovernMr. Speaker, that I must be a little per- ment; if Her Majesty's Government is sistent in this matter. I will not move aware that M. Roustan is virtually for the adjournient of the House unless I the present dictator of the Regency of am forced to it. Tho right hon. Gentle-Tunis, and has demanded the incarceraman states his belief that these things tion of seventeen Tunisians connected never took place; but, as a matter of with the administration of the Regency; fact, they have taken place, and the and, if, in consideration of the anomalous right hon. Gentleman, when he comes and humiliating position in which Her into such direct conflict with facts, should Majesty's Agent and Consul General, have the matter settled by an impartial and the political Agents of other Powers investigation.

are placed by the present confusion and

action of M. Roustan, Her Majesty's ITALY-OCCUPATION OF TRIPOLI. Government will take steps pending

MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD who had their acknowledgment, or otherwise, of the following Notice on the Paper:-To the Treaty imposed upon the Bey to


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1207 Protection of Person and {COMMONS) Property (Ireland) Act, 1881. 1208
come to some arrangement with the THE EARL OF BECTIVE asked if the
French Government and the Tunisian statements in the Press had been seen
Government by which our diplomatic by the Government ?


be carried on in a manner SIR CHARLES W. DILKE, in reply, more in accordance with the usages of said, the Government had seen the stateEuropean nations ? He wished further ment in the Press, and they were conto ask, whether among the 17 gentle- vinced that if it was true they must men who had been threatened with im- have known of it. prisonment in Tunis one is a British MR. MONTAGUE GUEST asked the subject ? For obvious reasons he did Under Secretary of State for Foreign not wish to mention the gentleman's Affairs, Whether, notwithstanding that

Mons. Jules Ferry had publicly declared MR. MONTAGUE GUEST asked the in the French Chamber that the French Under Secretary of State for Foreign expedition to Tunis had nothing whatAffairs, Whether Her Majesty's Govern- ever to do with the Enfida case, as rement is aware that Monsieur Roustan, ported by Lord Lyons to Lord Granin his new capacity of French Minister ville in his despatch received on 13th Resident in Tunis, has demanded of the February 1881, Mons. St. Hilaire, in Bey the arrest and punishment of seven- his Circular addressed to the French teen high Tunisian officials, alleged to be Representatives abroad, distinctly states unfavourable to France, among which is that one of the motives assumed by the Sheikh el Islam, or Chief Mufti, France against Tunis was, “The attempt who is the supreme civil authority in to snatch by illegal means the Enfida the Regency, and under whose authority Estate from an honest and industrious the right of pre-emption was originally Marseilles Company?" exercised in the Enfida Estate case, by SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, my Mr. Levy, a British subject ?

hon. Friend is correct in his statements, SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, and Lord Granville drew attention in Her Majesty's Government have no offi- his Note to M. Challemel-Lacour of the cial information on these points beyond | 20th instant (Tunis, No. 3, page 10), having been informed by Mr. Reade to the inconsistencies in the explanations that the President of the Municipality given at Paris as to the reasons for had taken refuge in the Consulate, in French intervention in Tunis. order, presumably, to avoid arrest by Tunisian officials. He left the Consulate PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PRO. after an amicable arrangement had been PERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881-ARRESTS arrived at. In regard to the supposed

UNDER THE ACT, arrest of a British subject, we have cer- MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR asked tainly heard nothing, and I am con- the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutevinced that if Mr. Reade had reason to nant of Ireland, Whether it is true that suppose any British subject had been the police authorities in Ireland inarrested he would have informed us of formed him, before the Protection of the fact.

Person and Property (Ireland) Bill had THE EARL OF BECTIVE asked the passed this House, that they would, on Under Secretary of State for Foreign its becoming law, be in a position at Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government once to arrest a hundred persons against has received any intelligence that the whom they could bring an amount of German Government has offered to me- evidence sufficient to secure their condiate between the Ottoman Porte and the viction at the hands of an ordinary EngFrench Government in the Tunis Ques-lish jury; and, whether, since that they tion; and, if Her Majesty's Government have not proved themselves unable to will guard its interest in maintaining redeem their promise ? the Berlin Treaty by associating itself Mr. W. E. FORSTER: It appears

to with the German Government in such me, Sir, that the hon. Member, in putmediation ?

ting this Question, was misled by his SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, own imagination or by some mistaken Her Majesty's Government have re

I must decline to give him any ceived no information to this effect, and information as to confidential communihave every reason to think the state- cations received by me from the police ment untrue.

authorities. The Earl of Bective

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1209 Protection of Person and {MAY 24, 1881] Property (Ireland) Act, 1881. 1210

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: With the holders to demand more than par, reference to the answer just given by there is no doubt that due notice must the right hon. Gentleman, Sir, I may be given before any operations of the be allowed to explain that I did not kind can take place. The obligation of draw on my own imagination; and that the State to the public is strictly limited I would not place the Question on the to one of two things-either to pay a Paper, but that I derived my informa- perpetual annuity of £3, or, in deviating tion from a source which I believe to be from that course, to pay a

sum of thoroughly reliable.



MR. MACLIVER asked the Financial

OF MR. BRENNAN. Secretary to the Treasury, When the MR. SEXTON asked the Chief SecreReport of the Sugar Industries Commit- tary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, tee of 1880 will be presented to Parlia- Whether Mr. Thomas Brennan, secrement?

tary to the Irish National Land League, LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH : arrested yesterday, has been imprisoned Sir, the Reports of the Sugar Industries in the gaol of Naas; whether his medical Committees of both Sessions of 1880 attendant, Dr. J. E. Kenny, of Dublin, have been already presented to Parlia- | has made a protest against the selection ment. The Sessional numbers of the of Naas gaol as a place of confinement Papers are 106 and 332.

for Mr. Brennan; and, whether the Go-
vernment will order the removal of Mr.

Brennan from Naas to Kilmainham,
THE NATIONAL DEBT-INTEREST ON where he can receive from his own medi-

cal adviser the care which that gentleMR. DICKSON (for Mr. WHITWORTH) man considers essential for the preservaasked the First Lord of the Treasury, tion of his health ? Whether, owing to the long continued Mr. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, I must cheapness of money in this Country he answer the first part of the Question in the should determine upon the reduction of affirmative. With respect to the second, the Interest on Consols, could the holders I am not aware of such a protest having demand more than par for the portion been made. With respect to the last, I to be paid off ?

may say that we should, of course, conMR. GLADSTONE: I do not like, sider any grounds of application made to Sir, to answer this Question in a manner us for the purpose, if we believed that any that would give any reason to suppose particular gaol was unhealthy, and direct that there is any immediate prospect of a strict investigation for that purpose. a reduction of the interest on Consols. We do not admit, however, that prisoners I may say that an opportunity will be should be at liberty to choose their place afforded, when the Resolution comes on of confinement in order that they may with respect to the conversion of Stock | be near any particular doctor. into Annuities, to make any needful re- LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL marks on the subject. I may, perhaps, asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord take this opportunity of mentioning to Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is the House that we have recently got aware that the chaplain of Naas gaol is into a state of things in the Money the president of the local branch of the Market in which, just as the 3 per cent Land League; and, whether the knowMetropolitan Stocks have come to bear ledge of that fact influenced the Governa far better price relatively than the 3. ment in selecting that particular prison so the 2} Public Stocks have come to for the detention of prisoners under the bear a better price relatively than the Coercion Act ? 3 per Cent. Under those circumstances, MR. W. E. FORSTER: I am not we have been making some sales of 21 aware of the fact stated by the noble per Cent Stock to the public, which have Lord ; and I think no one will imagine been advantageous to the Public Debt that the gaol in question would be Commissioners. With respect to the selected for such a reason but the noble immediate Question, as to the power of Lord.

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