evil it is desired to remedy. What you | Staleybridge (Mr. Summers), for inwant I will point out. The right hon. stance, based his speech upon the imGentleman says we make no sugges-provements the tenants had put in the tions; but I wonld venture to offer one. land. He never touched this point that I assume my premisses are right, and we object to. What we object to is, that the evil you want to correct is that not payment for improvements, but the Act of 1870, though it practically payment for something else—something prevented eviction to a great extent, yet that does not belong to the tenant and did not prevent the raising of rents. The never did The hon. Member for StaleyChief Secretary put before us some bridge, therefore, failed to appreciate that heart-rending cases where tenants had part of the case. Do not let the hon. reclaimed land and removed stones and Gentleman run away with the idea sugbuilt houses, the result being that the gested by the Chancellor of the Duchy rent had been largely increased; and of Lancaster that all the improvements there is no one on this side of the House are done by the tenant. (Mr. John who would not say that that is a mon- Bright : I did not say all, but ninestrous iniquity. I do not mean to say, tenths.]_That is nearly all. Do not and the Commission very properly states, let the House run away with the idea that you cannot say all the improve that all the improvements are, as a rule, ments are to be taken from the landlord done by the tenant. When we read and handed over to the tenants, other the Report and the Evidence published wise landlords would have nothing but by the Bessborough Commission, we find waste land. There must be a statutory that on most of the large estates most limitation. What you mean is that all of the improvements have been made the recent improvements made by a by the landlords, and that some of them tenant shall not be put in the landlord's have practically received no rent for the pocket, and you want to prevent the land. [“ Oh, oh!”] Well, you find landlord from raising his rent. Well, that to be the case in some parts of why do you not say that if the tenant Ireland, and you know that it is so. has his rent raised he has a right to say - Many of the large Irish landlords have “ Very well, we will have a settlement. spent nearly the whole of their receipts If things are allowed to go on as they on their estates. All these improveare I shall be content; but if you choose ments should be deducted when the to raise the rent it is time we had a tenant makes his claim. We are not settlement of accounts. I have done so willing that you should give the tenant much, my predecessors did so much that which he never had and has no built houses, planted manures that are right to have. I am far from saying not exhausted, and so forth. Let us fix that the Ulster Custom is not a wise the value of the improvements that be- one or has not worked beneficially in long to the tenants—let us know what Ulster, and I do not say that if you they are and pay me the money down. introduced that custom to the rest of If you cannot afford to pay me money Ireland it would not work well. It down capitalize it and deduct the interest would not suit English habits, and I do from the rent.” Here you would have a not profess to be a judge of what Irish remedy for a great evil you want to pro- habits are; but I say if you are going to vide for. You would not infringe any | take a serious step, state at once openly principle of political economy; you would and precisely what it is you are going do what is just, and you would not give to do. You are going to take away to the tenant one farthing that he has something which has hitherto been connot a right to receive. If you did this sidered as always belonging to the landyou would do justice between the parties. lord, and to hand it over to the tenant, You are not content with that, however; and you are not going to pay the landyou want to do something more, and it lord anything for it. It comes to that; is just because you want to do some and I cannot for one moment imagine thing more that we are so entirely op- that in all these discussions the question posed to this part of the Bill. I have of compensation has not entered into observed in a great many of the speeches the minds of the Government. I quite of hon. Members who have spoken on see all the difficulties they must have this matter that they have mixed up had to consider in dealing with the two things. The hon. Member for question. They may have asked them

[Fifth Night.)

selves—-"Where is the compensation to “That the Adjourned Debate on the Question come from? Can we get it from the [2nd May], " That Mr. Speaker do now leave British taxpayer ?” They might have Oaths (Motion for Bill)' be further Adjourned

the Chair for Committee on the Parliamentary thought of the Church Surplus Fund; till Tuesday next, at Two of the clock.”—(Lord but I am afraid there is no Church Frederick Cavendish.) Surplus. I have no doubt that that

Question again proposed, “ That the was thought of; but there is no surplus Debate be further adjourned till Tues. Lor, at least, there is none available. day next, at Two of the clock.” But that does not alter the question

Debate resumed. whether compensation ought to be given or not. All I can say is, give the tenant

MR. SPEAKER : It may be con. by all means the full value, if he wants venient to remind the House that the it, of his improvements; let us have a Question before it is-That this debate reckoning up. The landlord raises his be further adjourned till to-morrow, at rent, and the tenant says-„Very well,

2 o'clock. then, you shall pay the value of my im- Mr. R. N. FOWLER: I beg to move provements.” But if, beyond that, you that the debate bo further adjourned till are going to take from the landlord Thursday. what has always been considered to be- MR. SPEAKER: No Amendment to long to bim you must pay him for it. that effect can now be put, as the House If in the wisdom of the Government has already affirmed the proposition they think it right that this should be that the words proposed to be left out done, and that the property shall be in stand part of the Question. the hands of the tenant for the future, he wished to remind the House that the

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT said, let them say so outright, and not by a clause which we cannot understand. Let Prime Minister had promised to state the them say—“In our opinion it is right course he intended to pursue when the that the tenant right custom of Ulster Motion was brought on that evening, should prevail all over Ireland. We and had also stated that he should like shall therefore say to the landlords of a division to be taken. He (Sir Walter Ireland —' For the public good this B. Barttelot) thought the best course must be taken out of your estates, and the House could pursue would be to they must be considered as if they were proceed, as soon as possible, to that diin Ulster. There is no usage or custom vision. He should, to enable them to to warrant us in doing so, but as we do so, conclude by moving the adjournthink it is for the public benefit-that ment of the debate, and on these parit is for the benefit of Ireland that ticular and distinct grounds. The House the custom and usage which prevail in had been sitting since the 6th of January, Ulster should prevail throughout the and the right hon. Gentleman had ablength and breadth of the country-we sorbed, under the necessities of the case, are bound to say we shall impose that and in the interest of the country as he obligation upon you which is imposed on had stated, the whole of the Private the landlords of Ulster. But, as in all Members' nights. The Motion was one other cases when we take away property

which might well be made on some fufrom one man for the benefit of others, ture day without interfering with any. and ample compensation for the injury discussing when there was time on a we offer you compensation-full, fair, thing, and on which there might be a far

better opportunity of considering and we undoubtedly do to your estates.'' Motion made, and Question, "That right, and fair,

and just for the Govern:

Government night, and then it might be the Debate be now adjourned,”--(Mr. ment to press forward the question. But Shaw,)-put, and agreed to.

it was not right, or fair, or just-it was Debate further adjourned till Thursday. Gentleman should take away private

unjust and unfair that the right hon.

Members' days in the way now proposed. PARLIAMENTARY OATHS (MOTION

It must be remembered also that if the FOR BILL).

House granted a Day Sitting to-morrow,

they might have another on Friday, Order read, for resuming Adjourned and there would be nothing to prevent Debate on the Question (6th May], Day Sittings until this or any other

Sir R. Assheton Cross


Bill was brought in and passed. He to the proposal to have that Morning would move that the debate should be Sitting, and twice gave Notice of oppoadjourned.

sition; but when the time came he did MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK said, not oppose the Motion, and the debate he would second the Motion, in order to was proceeded with at a Morning Sitplace before the House some facts to ting with the unanimous consent of the show that to grant this Morning Sitting House. A Morning Sitting was held would be to establish a dangerous pre- on the 27th of May merely for the concedent in regard to the rights of private venience of the House before the Easter Members. It would, he said, be in the Holidays, and regular Morning Sittings recollection of the right hon. Gentleman were not resumed till the 10th of June. that during the last Liberal Administra- The practice of not holding Morning tion it was his (Mr. Cavendish Ben- Sittings before June was in accordance tinck's) duty to protest against the en- with the old practice of the House when croachments which the right hon. Gen. Morning Sittings commenced at 12 tleman made on the privileges of private o'clock; and it was clear from the preMembers, and especially with regard to cedents he had cited that Morning Sitthe practice, then first established, of ap- tings, early in the Session, ought not pointing Morning Sittings in the early to be appointed except with the consent part of the Session. His remonstrances, of the House-which, in this case, was then, and those of his Friends, were of clearly not given. For the convenience little avail; but the Government of Lord and information of hon. Gentlemen who Beaconsfield adopted a fairer and more called themselves independent, and who equitable course. To prove that he sat below the Gangway on the other need go no further back than 1876, side of the House, he had thought it when, on the 8th of June, and on a desirable to make them acquainted with siunilar occasion, Lord Beaconsfield laid these facts; and he thought the right down the principle upon which, in his hon. Gentleman would gain a great judgment, Morning Sittings ought to be point if he could so govern them as to appointed. He said Morning Sittings obtain their support to some Motions he were not a procedure to which he would had proposed, but to which they were ever have recourse except towards that extremely adverse. It would also be part of the year when the pressure of well if they would come down to the Public Business was very great. Ac- House when encroachments were to be cordingly, in that year, the regular Morn- made on the rights of private Members, ing Sittings commenced upon the above and would oppose a Motion which, if date, and in 1877 were tirst appointed the votes of the House could be taken, for Tuesdays only, commencing on June as he thought they ought to be taken, 5. In the following year there were by ballot, he believed would be reno regular Morning Sittings until June jected. 18, and in 1879 the first regular Morn

Motion made, and Question proposed, ing Sitting was on the 27th of May.

" That the Debate be now adjourned.” The principio clearly was that no Morning | -(Sir Walter B. Barttelot.) Sittings should be held before the commencement of June, or thereabouts, ex- MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, at this time cept with the consent of, and for the con of the night the most rational course venience of, the House. The precedent would be, if we are to have a division, mentioned on a former occasion by the to go straight to that division ; but the noble Lord the Secretary of State for right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. India of a Morning Sitting held in 1879, Cavendish Bentinck) thought he had on the 6th of May, by the late Governo matter to communicate to the House ment, was wholly inapplicable to the pre- which was so important and so accurate sent case, for it would be seen by a refer- that he could not possibly withhold it. ence to Hansard that that Morning Sitting The right hon. and learned Gentleman on the 6th of May was held at the re- says there was once a Government in quest of Members of the House, in order this country--at a period so deplorable that the House might proceed with the that he cannot refer to it without painValuation Bill. The hon. Member for when there was in operation a conSwausea (Mr. Dillwyn) took objection spiracy against the rights of private

Members, but that that guilty Cabinet | made an accurate statement to this was dismissed from Office, and another House. I make no complaint of those Government came in; and then the Morning Sittings. My own opinion is right hon. and learned Gentleman, al- that, as far as Morning Sittings go as a though he had in vain struggled in plan, they ought not to be introduced at former times to defend the rights of the an early date. This seems to be a special House, found he had a different set of ground, at all events, on which to try people to deal with. [Mr. CAVENDISH the judgment of the House. When that BENTINCK : I never said anything of the judgment has been taken there will be sort.] I am not endeavouring to cite time for further discussion ; but it will the words of the right hon, and learned be remembered that a measure to try Gentleman. It would be perfectly in the judgment of the House is no part of vain for me to try to do so; they are far the policy of the Government. It is beyond my powers. It will be seen that simply a proposal made by the Governit is the spirit of his speech to which I ment with a view to providing for a am confining myself. With this new dilemma that has arisen out of a vote Government the principles of the right which the Government resisted. The hon. and learned Gentleman prevailed; Government felt it to be their duty, and then, with some insignificant excep-notwithstanding, to render any assisttions which are hardly worth notice, all ance they could, and they therefore Morning Sittings were adjourned, or not made this proposal. We are certainly allowed until late in May, or until the desirous to have the judgment of the month of June. That is the upshot of House upon that proposal; but before the statement of the right hon, and they can have that judgment they must learned Gentleman; and I must admit have the power of taking the vote of the that, so far as I can judge, during House, and the power of making a prothe time of the late Government the posal. The object of the Morning Sitright hon. and learned Gentleman ting which is now asked for is to enable bad ample leisure for informing him them to make that proposal, and the self on this matter, although he ap- preliminary step to making that propeared to be generally oppressed by the posal is that which is now before the duties of Office. But I wish simply on House. this occasion, without further discussion, MR. NEWDEGATE said, that the to test the statement of the right hon. Prime Minister had charged the Oppoand learned Gentlemen, and show, with sition with having placed the House in reference to the present circumstances, a dilemma; but the fact was that the what were the actual dates, extracted dilemma had arisen on account of the from the Records of this House, when very peculiar appearance of Mr. BradMorning Sittings commenced, as he laugh at the Table, for which the Minishas told us, when he completely suc- terial Party were accountable. No one ceeded in defending the rights of private could doubt that the dilemma of which Members. I will take, first, the year the right hon. Gentleman spoke had been 1875, when the first Morning Sitting created by those by whom Mr. Bradwas on the 16th of March.

There was laugh had been supported, of whom the another Morning Sitting on the 13th of leaders were Her Majesty's Ministers. April, and then they became usual. In He hoped that hon. Gentlemen on that 1877 the first Morning Sitting was on (the Opposition)

side of the House would the 27th of March ; in 1878, the first

so humble a Member of the Morning Sitting was on the 19th of House as himself (Mr. Newdegate) for March, and the second and third Morn- distinctly repudiating, on the part of the ing Sittings in that year were of par. Opposition, any responsibility for the ticular interest in connection with the present dilemma.

The right hon. Genpart which the right hon. and learned tleman claimed for his attempt to estabGentleman has taken on this peculiar lish Morning Sittings early in the Sesquestion. On the 26th and the 29th of sion the precedents established by the March there were Morning Sittings on late Government. But, if his memory the Mutiny Bill, in which the right hon. did not betray him, he (Mr. Newdegate) and learned Gentleman was specially thought that the right hon. Gentleman interested. After that the right hon had deemed it to be his duty to repudiate and learned Gentleman thinks he has the entire conduct of the late Adminis

Mr. Gladstone


tration. He (Mr. Newdegate) himself, the House in taking Morning Sittings indeed, regarded the conduct of the late was that there should be a general Government as reprehensible in not hav- assent to them. There was, so far as ing shown more promptitude and firm- he knew, no instance in which Morning ness in dealing with obstruction, and it Sittings had been forced upon the House was that systematic obstruction of the by a small majority against the general Business of the House which had in the wish of the House. What he wished to last Parliament rendered early Morning ask the Prime Minister—and it was a Sittings necessary. He held, then, that question which he should like to have the right hon. Gentleman was basing answered before any further proceeding his conduct upon precedents which he was taken-was whether, as so large a had repudiated and condemned at meet- proportion of the House was opposed to ings throughout the country, as well as a Morning Sitting that day, he still in

a in that House, while he pleaded nothing tended to persevere with the Motion for in justification for this change of opinion a Morning Sitting ? on his part. The right hon. Gentleman MR. GLADSTONE: Personally, I had charged the late Government with should feel inclined to state the matter adopting a course which endangered the rather differently from the hon. and independence of Parliament, and yet learned Gentleman. He says that there now proposed to pursue the same course has been, so far as he knows, no taking himself; and he (Mr. Newdegate) con- of a Morning Sitting except with the tended that the precedents which the general assent of the House. What I right hon. Gentleman had cited in favour should say would be that, as far as I of the course he proposed for the virtual know, so far as Morning Sittings are and practical coercion of the House were concerned, a general disposition to acvitiated by his own often-repeated pre- cede to the desire expressed by the vious statements.

Government. ["No, no!”] That has Question put.

certainly been my experience; but I do

not wish to make it a matter of contenThe House dirided :-Ayes 182; Noestion. So far as the division which has 202: Majority 20.-(Div. List, No. 199.) just taken place is concerned, the numMain Question again proposed.

ber of those who voted for a Morning

Sitting is larger than the number who MR. RITCHIE said, he wished to ask voted against it. On the other hand, I the right hon. Gentleman the Prime presume that hon. Members who voted Minister whether, after such an expres- with the minority are quite prepared to sion of opinion of the House, he intended move other Motions for adjournment. to persist with the Motion that the Therefore, if I were to persevere with

í House should meet that day at 2 o'clock?, the Main Question that this debate be adHe desired to point out to the House journed until a Morning Sitting this day, that the division had been taken espe. I certainly should do so in the conviction cially at the instance of the Prime i that some hon. Gentleman would move Minister, who rather went out of his the adjournment of the debate, and that way in order to attach significance to wo should have a good chance of a the division, and led the House to be. Morning Sitting, although it would be lieve that the whole of his forces would , a Morning Sitting continuous from now be marshalled in the support of the until 2 o'clock to-morrow. Under these Government.

circumstances, I may say that I do not MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to propose to take a Morning Sitting, but the hon. Member that as he has already , we will take time to ruminate on the addressed the House on this Amend. | full significance of the division which ment, he has exhausted his right of has taken place. I may, however, say speaking.

to the hon. Member for the Tower MR. GORST said, he had not yet ex. Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), that he is quite hausted his right, and therefore he wrong in his supposition that there has thought he was entitled, seeing that so been any marshalling of the forces of large a minority had voted, to ask a | the Government. There has been noquestion : f the Prime Minister on the thing of the kind. We have simply subject of the Motion before the House. , taken this division ont he Notice which The principle which had always guided was previously given. The hon. Menu.



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