MR. T. P. O'CONNOR begged to appeal to the Prime Minister to furnish facilities for a resumption, on Monday evening, of the debate on the question of the Irish arrests.

MR. GLADSTONE was understood to say that he could not stop the progress of the Irish Land Bill on Monday night at 10 o'clock. He would, however, agree to report Progress at 12; and then the discussion referred to by the hon. Member might be resumed.

a very interesting and instructive nature | tial Circular to County Inspectors," and it could not be denied that the speech of move a Resolution censuring the same, his hon. Friend, with which it opened, stood next on the Paper, said, that alwas more of an academical than of a though he regretted to lose this opporpractical character. He could only say tunity, he did not think it right to prothat it had never before been the custom ceed with his Motion in the absence of of the House of Commons to refer mat- the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Seters of this kind to Select Committees-cretary for Ireland. indeed, he remembered the saying of a very distinguished statesman, that he would never submit the Constitution of this country to a Select Committee. Any alterations of the laws of this country ought to be based on a deliberate expression of opinion of the country, and not upon the Report of a Select Committee. If a Committee were appointed, what practical result would follow? It could only be very much a reproduction of the debate of to-night. There would be a very ingenious speech in favour of the Hare system, and ingenious speeches in favour of other systems; and he saw no possibility of arriving at any practical result. For his own part, he was one of the old-fashioned school, and he had never been able to bring himself to admire the notion of turning the electoral system of England into a sort of Chinese puzzle, or selecting Members of Parliament by a sort of double acrostic. That might be a very ingenious occupation for people who had nothing to do; but it would greatly puzzle and confuse the great mass of the electors. He therefore thought it would be more wise for the House to decide at once in reference to the proposal of his hon. Friend, and to proceed with the Business which had been set down for transaction in Committee of Supply.

COLONEL MAKINS said, he could not support the Resolution in its present form, but would accept one directing a Committee to collect information as to the various systems in operation.

IRISH FISHERIES.-OBSERVATIONS.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL, who had given Notice that he would draw the attention of the House to the Report of the Committee appointed by the Colonial Office in 1880 to distribute the grant of £2,000 voted by the Dominion of Canada towards the relief of Irish distress, and to the aid afforded by the Committee to the fishing population on the West Coast of Ireland; and to move

"That, in view of the surprising and excellent results obtained by the expenditure of a comparatively small sum of money on the construction and repairs of harbours and piers, and expedient, in the opinion of this House, that on the provision of boats, nets, and gear, it is further assistance should be given for the de velopment of the Irish fisheries, that such assist ance should be given from public sources, and should be in the form of a free grant," said, that if the Government intimated that it would be inconvenient to discuss the subject in the absence of the Chief Secretary, he would refrain from bringing it forward at present. On two or three occasions previously attention had been called to the fisheries of Ireland; but the House had never manifested any entertained any large scheme for their great interest in them, and it had not development. It had been said on those occasions that there were no actual facts to bring before the House to show that any outlay of money would be remunerative. Now, however, there was some evidence of the return that might be obtained by pecuniary outlay. In the winter of 1879, at the time when very severe distress existed along the West

But

Coast of Ireland, the Dominion of Canada | debt of gratitude they owed to the Parvoted £20,000 for its relief, and the liament of the Dominion in voting sponlate Secretary of State for the Colo- taneously a very liberal grant of money nies intrusted the distribution of it to for the relief of the poor Irish population. a Committee selected from the two cen- The Committee appointed by the Secretral Relief Committees then existing in tary of State for the Colonies determined Dublin. The Committee came to the to apply this sum of money partly in the conclusion that the proper way to carry erection of piers and harbours, and partly out the wishes of the Canadian donors in the provision of boats, and nets, and was to expend the money on works or fishing gear. With regard to piers objects that would have a permanent and harbours, the greater number were and lasting effect. The importance of either completely dilapidated or out of harbours and piers on the West Coast repair. They were fortunate enough to of Ireland had long been recognized. secure the assistance of Dr. Brady, who For some years it had been in the was most enthusiastic in his devotion to power of the Government to make grants the cause of Irish fisheries. That gento localities for the purpose of assist- tleman gave himself heart and soul to ing to construct harbours and piers for the distribution of the grant. His inthe advantage of the coasting popula- formation was always of the most reliable tion engaged in fishing pursuits. But character, especially as to the localities those grants had been of a very niggardly on which they should expend their character. They were limited to about money in providing piers and harbours, £5,000 a-year from the Treasury; it and they were able to contribute more was stipulated that the locality should than 24 piers. The Committee provided provide one-fourth of the sum required, the one-fourth required to be advanced and from the outset the conditions laid by the locality, and the Treasury addown rendered the liberality of the vanced the other three-fourths. Treasury almost useless. So poor were the Treasury made an additional grant, the people that it was all but impossible and instead of the usual £5,000, they for them to find even a fourth of the made a grant last year of £45,000, which money for any such works as were re- had enabled a very large number of quired. It followed that the works con- works to be commenced. He regretted, structed had been very few in number, however, to say that the Treasury, with and the authorities had been unfortunate that extreme prudence and caution which in the selection of sites. The Irish Board were, perhaps, right at the time when of Works had failed in this as in other great demands were made for Irish disthings, and had enforced the necessity tress, had given the House to understand for its re-construction. The Canadian that this £45,000 was an accumulation Grant was a godsend to a poor popula- of the grants for nine years to come, so tion, who were peculiarly situated in this that Ireland would have to go so long respect, that no amendment of the Land without any grant from the TreaLaws would place them in a satisfactory sury for these harbours. He hoped position, because they could not subsist the Government, on re-consideration, wholly on agriculture. In the West of would not adhere to this resolution. Ireland the resources of the people, so The Committee had been able to contrifar as agriculture was concerned, were bute to 24 piers. There were 79 other apdeplorable; but on the coast the com- plications for improvements to harbours, pensation of nature was remarkable in for many of which other resources were the great productiveness of the fisheries. available; but in consequence of the inSome years ago the Western population sufficiency of the Government grants derived very great profits from the they could not be proceeded with. The fisheries. Kelp was also an unfailing total cost of the 24 piers was £55,000, source of income; but that trade had and the estimated cost of the 79, which entirely failed from no fault of theirs. the Committee, after careful investigation, From year to year the funds which en- thought absolutely necessary, and to abled them to provide boats and nets had which the localities were willing to condisappeared. Repairs were not carried tribute, was £181,000. The works apout; their boats became unseaworthy, peared to have been carried on very and their nets rotten. He thought the carefully and satisfactorily, some by the House would gladly recognize the deep Board of Works and others by contracts,

They were not completed; but the Com- | asked for was not very large, considermittee reported that when completed they ing the enormous resources of the counwould be of the greatest possible value try. His own idea was that at least to the population, and would stimulate £250,000 might be expended on Irish the fisheries very much. If hon. Members fisheries in a manner that would be exhad been on the West Coast of Ireland, ceedingly popular, judging from the reon the tremendous coast of Donegal, for sults of much smaller loans. About the instance, as his right hon. and learned population of the West Coast of Ireland Friend opposite (Mr. Law) had been, they there was something very remarkable. would understand that, with the terrific Probably the Attorney General for Iregales on that coast, unless shelter was pro- land had seen the Reports of the Irish vided, men could not be expected to run Fishery Inspectors. If so, he could not the risk that would have to be incurred. have failed to notice that the Inspectors, The richness of the Irish fisheries had whose visits made them acquainted with been brought out by the Committee in the fishing population all round the the most remarkable way. In some loca- coast, invariably spoke of them in the lities the Committee said that each canoe highest terms as peaceable, orderly, and returned laden with mackerel from 50 well-conducted, even in the disturbed to 80 dozen in each. There had not districts. In short, while the difficulties been so heavy a fishing for years. They of the country were wholly caused by also said that for miles along the coast the attitude of the agricultural popula of Clare there were no nets among the tion, the fishermen were worthy objects fishermen until they provided them. of liberality. It would be understood, According to their Report, one boat real- of course, that if piers were constructed ized £60 in three nights, and the cost by means of a free grant of money, a of the boat was only £12. In another small tax should be levied on those locality, where nets were given to 50 using them in order to keep them in refishermen at a cost under £200, in four pair. But piers were not all that was weeks over £1,200 worth of mackerel wanted. He had also to advocate a grant were sold. that was not equally defensible from a business point of view. It would be useless to provide piers and harbours for men who had no fishing-gear, and who were too destitute to buy it. In this case, however, a much smaller sum would suffice, or, rather, would be more than sufficient. He had good authority for saying that £50,000 would do a great deal of good in supplying proper fishing appliances. At present the fishing people were in a condition of extreme poverty. Their misery was undeniable, and had been caused by no fault of their own; and the remedy that he suggested had also been indicated by the Duke of Edinburgh as the result of his experience while distributing The New York Herald Relief Fund among the people of the West Coast. Considerations of political economy might, no doubt, be urged against the grant; but political economy had been banished to Jupiter and Saturn, and it would be hard indeed if it were recalled from those heights as an argument against needful liberality. It was to be borne in mind that the distribution of the grant would be a very easy task. The Coastguard officers and the parish priests would be able to furnish certificates

These poor Irish fishermen had for years been prevented from going to sea by the paralyzing effects of a poverty which had grown on them year by year; but the tiny aid which had been given by means of this fund in various parts of Ireland had done great good. If the Government were anxious to do good on a large scale there were results to encourage them. The men went to sea regardless of weather, and were so skilful as to make enormous captures. The first necessity was the provision of harbours for the population of the West Coast. If the Government wanted to effect any real improvement they must not proceed at the rate of £5,000 a-year, as they had been doing of late years; but they must set aside a very considerable sum for the scientific construction of harbours all over the West Coast, and there was no question but that the outlay would be highly remunerative. He would recommend an absolutely free grant for the purpose, and he was perfectly convinced the arguments in its favour were very strong, It was said that the liberality of Liberal Members extended only to dividing among Irishmen the property of a particular class. After all, the sum he

Lord Randolph Churchill

stating the names of the individuals who were in need of some such State system as he had described, and it could be arranged that a certain sum should be paid back by the fishermen themselves out of their profits. If a grant were made on such a scale as he had suggested a most important supply of fish would, doubtless, be brought into the English market. There was already a fair extension of railways to the West Coast of Ireland, and there would be little difficulty in getting the fish to the market. At present there were three times as many English as there were Irish boats-to say nothing of French boats-gathering this valuable "harvest of the sea," which was the property of Ireland. If the people on the West Coast had the appliances by which they could become accustomed once more to the management of boats and to marine exercises, and if the Admiralty were to place one or two training ships on that coast, a most valuable recruiting ground would be provided for the Navy. In conclusion, he was sorry he could not ask the House to come to an absolute decision on his proposal at the present moment; but, on the other hand, he had been glad to avail himself of this opportunity of bringing the subject before the House.

were extremely honourable, and he (Mr. O'Shea) knew instances in which they had repaid loans in the most unexpectedly prompt manner. It was impossible for those who had not been on the West Coast of Ireland to understand the great difficulties which fishermen there experienced. He must offer his testimony to the numerous services of Mr. Brady on the West Coast of Ireland. It was marvellous how that gentleman had devoted his time for months past for the good of the fishermen on that coast; and he could assure the House the gratitude of the men towards him was very deep. He sincerely hoped some means would be taken by the Government to show they were not insensible of Mr. Brady's services.

MR. BLAKE said, he would not trespass upon the House beyond a few minutes, because he had given Notice of a Motion on the subject of the Irish Sea Fisheries, and he could state his views fully when that came on. The noble Lord, to whom too much credit could not be given for the admirable manner in which he had introduced this matter, had spoken about the Canadian Fund. That fund could not have been so advantageously made use of if it had not been for the exertions of his late Colleague, Mr. Brady, who, at great MR. O'SHEA said, he could cor- sacrifice to his comfort, had worked at roborate the character which the noble its distribution most laboriously, zealLord had given the fishermen on the ously, and efficiently. The noble Lord West Coast of Ireland; and he thought had not time to touch upon the benefits there was no part of it which showed conferred on the maritime population by more clearly the advantage of such a another fund. As many hon. Gentleproposal as that now made than the dis- men were aware, there was a sum of trict at the mouth of the Shannon. Be- £10,000-the residue of a charitable fore the Canadian Grant to the fisher- fund raised some 40 years ago-which, men there, the fishermen in the neigh- during the Viceroyalty of the Duke of bourhood of Loop Head were in the most Marlborough, it was determined to use dreadful poverty. To-day he had had a in granting loans to the Irish fishermen. a letter from the parish priest, Father In six years £32,000 had been advanced, Vaughan, who was regarded as the and £20,000 had been repaid. There father of the fishermen in that district, was overdue for arrears £856; but the and he told him the poor people there greater portion of that sum was in were getting on well this year, and, as course of repayment. In a couple of an instance of this, he wrote, "their years the whole amount would be rerents are nearly all paid." The rev. paid. He himself, as Inspector of gentleman pointed out that in the dis- Fisheries, was engaged in the distritrict there had been caught this year bution of that fund. They could have £100,000 worth of fish; but this quan- advanced advantageously 10 times as tity had been nearly all caught by Eng- much as they had at their disposal. In lish and French boats. At the same the county of Galway he had, the first time, the canoes in which the natives year, only £1,400 to advance, while fished had done extremely well. Al- £20,000 was applied for. That, of though the people were poor, they course, was an excessive figure; but he

believed, had he had £10,000, it would | loans, the noble Lord had shown, first, have been usefully employed. The ex- that they were profitable; secondly, that penditure, according to the noble Lord, they could be granted with security; and, of the Canadian Fund, had been attended thirdly, that the people fully deserved with the most beneficial results, for the the loans, and would properly employ amount of fish captured was 50 times them. He had proved that they were greater than it would otherwise have profitable, and shown that the comparabeen. Only eight counties in Ireland tively small sum of £11,000 spent on had the benefit of the Reproductive Fund. fishing gear had resulted in a profit It would be of the greatest advantage of, at least, treble the outlay. One of if the sum available could be increased, the numerous correspondents who had and the eight counties which had been written on this subject had shown the left out, but in which fishing was carried immense difference there was between on, could participate in the benefits the people who had had the advantage arising from the advances. There was of loans and those who had not. In the one thing particularly wanted for the second place, it had been proved that Irish fisheries, and that was a vessel to those loans could be given with security, look out for new fishing grounds and and he thought that that was a lesson for surveying purposes. Scotland had in the direction of further loans from the for a long time been possessed of a State. On this point he could speak vessel-an efficient vessel, under the with a certain amount of local knowFishery Board; but, notwithstanding ledge, because in a village just outside repeated requests, Ireland had never Galway a large number of loans had succeeded in obtaining one. If such a been granted in the course of nine years, vessel were provided, he was sure much and he was sure that an instance was more fish would be caught. Upon the unknown of anything like a breach of coast of Kerry, as, indeed, upon the engagement by those to whom the loans coast of different parts of Ireland, vast were made. One of the most painful shoals of mackerel were coming in, and difficulties that had occurred to his mind there could be no doubt that if the seas upon this question was that somehow or around Ireland were properly fished, other it seemed very hard to find out the wages and food of the people would how the wishes of the people could best be enormously increased." It was a be met and their interests best advanced. deplorable thing that so magnificent a One of the difficulties was that the popufield of industry as the Irish fisheries lation were rather backward; and owing afforded should be so much neglected to their antagonism to anything like inand comparatively unused; and he novation, and in order to relieve people, hoped the earnest and powerful appeal especially people of the unlettered class, of the noble Lord would have the effect the State must not only give relief, but of causing the Government to do some- they must give them relief in such a way thing in the direction of taking some as to secure the co-operation of the people steps to render more available the themselves. The people in some parts fisheries of Ireland. of Ireland had had considerable diffculty with the persons sent to deal with them through a want of sympathy and a true knowledge of the way in which to deal with those people. It was from no want of zeal or industry on the part of the fishing population that they did not make use of such opportunities as were placed at their disposal, for he found that the Connemara men engaged in lobster fishing were sometimes found hundreds of miles away from their homes, living for weeks together in a small boat under the shelter of an old sail. It was true that that showed in a way that the people had not yet made much progress in the best means of utilizing their opportunities, because

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR thanked the noble Lord for the careful attention he had given to this subject, and said, his excuse for intervening in the debate was that he represented a portion of the country that was more largely affected by the question than, perhaps, any other part of the country-he meant the town of Galway. What must have struck everybody who had visited Galway was the almost appalling rapidity with which the fishing population in the town had decreased. There was no part of the Irish problem that more immediately demanded the attention of Parliament than that of the Irish fishery population. With regard to the

Mr. Blake