MR. CHILDERS assured the hon. Member that he would not postpone the Army Estimates one single day beyond what was necessary; but, for the general purposes of the Government, he would have to ask their forbearance.

support the Government if they went to | mates were pressed upon them at a late a division. He thought it would facili- hour, because of the Irish Land Bill. tate matters if the Secretary of State They were voting away the money of would assure the Committee that he the people of this country, and that was would not take any Vote later than the what they ought to consider long before middle of July. the Land Bill, which would do no good at all. In the meantime, however, he wished to know if this Vote included the cost of transport in the recent operations in the Transvaal. If the right hon. Gentleman assured them that the Vote was absolutely necessary, he would not oppose it; but he had not told them so. He deprecated this hasty way of voting £3,500,000. It was a course which the Liberal Party would never allow others to follow, and the right hon. Gentleman knew very well that he would oppose such a course, and had opposed it when it was proposed by another Government.

SIR ALEXANDER GORDON quite agreed that these collusions between the two Front Benches were dangerous things. The fact was that the ex-Secretary of State for War had prepared a scheme which his own Government would not bring into operation, and he had put it into a pigeon-hole in his Office, and the present Secretary finding it there now asked the House to sanction what the late Government would not do. He thought the late Government were quite right, and showed great prudence; but the right hon. Gentleman had not stated whether the House would have an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the new organization before it came into operation, and he wished they could have an assurance to that effect.

COLONEL STANLEY said, he wished to disabuse the mind of his noble Friend and some others of the idea that there was necessarily any arrangement bethe two Front Benches on this occasion. What caused him to deprecate undue discussion was that the House, having already voted the men and material of the Army, would stultify itself if it refused to allow the head of the Army to carry out the previous Vote. But he thought the right hon. Gentleman would facilitate the progress of the Vote by letting the Committee understand that, not only so far as he was concerned, but so far as the Government were concerned, there would be an opportunity for discussion before the Regulations of the 1st of July were acted upon.

MR. CHILDERS said, he would repeat the assurance he had already given that he would not delay by one single day these Estimates, and that he would do his very best to get them before July. He did not think he could be more explicit than that.

MR. ONSLOW said, that on this occasion he should support the noble Lord. Night after night these Esti

Mr. A. J. Balfour

MR. CHILDERS said, he had never objected to any Vote of this kind when it had been declared to be necessary for the Public Service. The charge with respect to the Transvaal was for troops who had gone out in the early part of the year, and the other matters there would be an opportunity of discussing.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS said, the Secretary of State had told them that this Vote was necessary, and on that ground he should support the Government. It was not in the least from any agreement between the Front Benches, but because it was absolutely necessary to carry on the Services of the country. A word about the Civil Service Estimates. It was an enormous temptation to the Government, especially when they had got a heavy Bill before them, to put off the Estimates to the latest possible time. He understood they were going to ask a Vote for six weeks on account for the Civil Service Estimates; and he understood, from the peculiar circumstances of this year, that that Vote would be granted to them. But he wanted to give the Government warning that they were not to expect another Vote on Account, and, having had the indulgence of the House so far, they must not ask for that indulgence again simply because they had a Bill before them which must go on. He should oppose any further Vote on Account, because it was time they resorted to the old practice, and that the Votes for the Civil Service and also for the greater Services should not be put off to a late period. He admitted that the right hon. Gentleman

was right in saying that under the pre- | hon. Gentleman the then Chancellor of vious Government he had never opposed the Exchequer; but when the matter a Vote which was declared to be abso- was looked into it was found to be imlutely necessary for the Public Service. practicable. At the same time, as far At the same time, he was bound to say as he was aware, the question had not that when the late Governmerment did been lost sight of. ask for Votes on Account they were opposed by a great number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, and were requested to give up their Bills and go on with Supply.

MAJOR NOLAN said, he thought a good deal of the money expended on transport at home was wasted. There was £116,000 for the escort of prisoners, and his own experience was that there were more escorts going about than were necessary. This employment took the men away from drill and cost the country a great deal of money, and very often persons were taken up for deserters who were not deserters at all. If attention were called to this, several thousands of pounds might be saved. It often happened that men who were merely absent without leave were arrested and sent under escort. A large number of Roman Catholic men were sent out without any chaplain; and although the late Secretary to the Admiralty promised that when there were a large number a Catholic chaplain should be sent out with them, he (Major Nolan) believed the promise had never been executed, and he would like to know whether that was so or not.

MR. HEALY reminded the Committee and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Childers) that some of the Irish Members wished to discuss the presence of soldiers in Ireland assisting in evictions. They could not attempt to do that at so late an hour, and if the right hon. Gentleman would give them an assurance they would be willing to waive the matter then. There was, however, another matter. Public feeling in Ireland was very high; there were Irish soldiers there who sometimes went out on the spree, and cheered Irish leaders. For that exceptional sentences were inflicted, and there was one case in which a young man of the 18th Royal Irish was sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment. The Irish Members would also like to discuss the conduct of the Guards in Dublin, which was, beyond all doubt, a disgrace to the British Army, and a standing menace to every peaceful citizen in Dublin. There was a case the other day in which two or three of those roughs had knocked down and beaten a man, and the man could get no satisfaction; and there was the celebrated case of the man who was thrown into a canal by some Army Service Corps men and nearly drowned. There was a series of these cases, and, seeing the way in which troops were being poured into Ireland, and how careful the Government were that they should be English soldiers, it was important that the right hon. Gentleman should keep a strict watch over them. And when the right hon. Gentleman introduced Votes, it would be well if he would bring them on at a reasonable hour, so that they might be discussed.

MR. CHILDERS said, his attention had been drawn to the question of deserters, and as to the Roman Catholics he would take care that when there were a large number sent out, a Roman Catholic chaplain should be sent with them. A promise to that effect had been given in general terms, and in one case a Roman Catholic chaplain was sent with a troop-ship this year to South Africa. He believed that what had been done had been entirely satisfactory to those who looked after that question. MR. CHILDERS said, the general The troop-ship expenditure did not points raised by the hon. Member might come under this Vote. It was an Ad-be dealt with on Vote 3; but he could miralty Vote.

MAJOR NOLAN did not think the promise as to chaplains had been fulfilled, and he urged that if men of other religions had chaplains, the Roman Catholics should.

COLONEL STANLEY said, that to the best of his recollection the promise was given, not by himself, but by the right

assure the hon. Member that there was not, either on the part of the officers or of the superior authorities in Ireland, any desire to screen any soldiers who might commit any improprieties such as had been described. On the contrary, when such cases had come before them, they had rigidly dealt with them. It was not the case that the soldiers had

MR. P. MARTIN said, he was interested on behalf of some of the Militia Staff-sergeants in Ireland, who considered themselves ill-treated; and he was anxious to know more definitely when the Army Scheme would be brought under the attention of the House. He would not go into the details of the grievances of these men; but he would ask the right hon. Gentleman, in consideration of his not doing so, to give some precise statement as to when the scheme could be brought before the House, so that there should be an opportunity of discussing the grievances, and urging them upon the House.

been severely punished for cheering; | therefore, that the money was absolutely but in one of the cases referred to the necessary now would not bear investigaman had used language of a most trea- tion. He would further remind the right sonable character, which could not be hon. Gentleman that he always had passed over. The wish of the Army autho- balances of millions under the control rities was that discipline in all respects of the War Office. He did not seem to should be maintained. In regard to the be so well acquainted with the details case of the man thrown into a canal, of his Office as he might be. At the the man appeared not to be sober, and end of the Appropriation Account in when he was asked to pick out the men any year he would find in detail the who had assaulted him he could not account of all the balances standing to identify them. He did not know what the credit of the War Office at the end more the authorities could have done of September, and he would find that than they had done in that case. these balances invariably amounted to £12,000,000 or £15,000,000. He did not say that all these moneys were immediately available for every purpose; but over and above the £4,500,000 he had had voted to him there were other funds available, and he, therefore, could not want funds, and would not be in want of funds for three months. There was no necessity, therefore, for this Vote. The right hon. Gentleman said he had selected this particular Vote because it was non-contested. It was simply because it was the largest Vote he could ask for. If he wanted noncontentious Votes, why could he not ask for that for Divine Service or for some Non-Effective Service? These were not Votes on which contention could arise; but he wanted this because, having already got Vote 1, if he also had Vote 10 he would have all the money for pay and food and transport, and all the most contentious business connected with the War Office, except stores, would have passed. The question of the transport of troops was one upon which a large amount of discussion might reasonably be expended. Discussion might very properly be raised on such questions as stoppages of soldiers' pay, Colonial losses, fuel, forage, or provisions; and in the Appendix, page 193, there were figures connected with the Transvaal which suggested a number of questions. But if they passed this Vote, how were those questions to be dealt with? When they came to other Votes it would not be in order to discuss the points which might be properly raised on this. He therefore could not accept the right hon. Gentleman's observation that it was necessary that this money should be voted; and even if it were, it was the duty of the Government to have brought it before the House at some more convenient hour. It was now past 2, and it was not right

MR. CHILDERS had had no intimation of the grievances; but on Vote 5 he would give the hon. Member the fullest opportunity of discussing them. At present, however, he was not aware of the special points to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR considered it obvious that the Committee was not then in a condition to pass this Vote. Here was an hon. Member appealing to the Secretary of State for War for an assurance about something, and when the Committee tried to ascertain what it was upon which he wanted an assurance they found it had nothing to do with this Vote. This was simply because the Vote had been suddenly sprung upon the House, and when not a Member of the Government had a copy of the Estimates in his hands. The right hon. Gentleman had had more than one-third of the Effective Vote voted to him, and he said he should have another £3,500,000; and he proposed that the discussion of the Army Estimates should go on in the beginning of July. From the 1st of April to the 1st of July was only three months, and he could not in that quarter have spent £4,500,000. The statement,

Mr. Childers

MR. CHILDERS said, in answer to the question of the hon. Member for Queen's County, that he had ascertained beyond doubt that the £8,000,000 balances at the War Office were not at their disposal, and that the money would run out about two weeks or more from this day. Therefore it was absolutely necessary to have this Vote. The hon. Member was a terrible tempter in suggesting that he should take a Vote on Account; but it was understood to be a canon in that House not to take Votes on Account for the Army Service.

or proper to pass a Vote of £3,500,000 | at such an hour without discussion. It had been sprung upon the House without reasonable Notice, and they had no reason to suppose it would be proceeded with until the Civil Service Estimates had been discussed. If it was necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to have money, why not ask for a general Vote on Account? Why not take half of this Vote and leave the other half as fair ground on which to raise discussion connected with the items? Half the money ought to be enough. The right hon. Gentleman did not appear to be able to accept that suggestion. Under those circumstances, he must challenge the Vote, and he did not think he could finish his remarks much before 3 o'clock.

MR. BIGGAR said, the old idea was that no large sums of money should be asked for after 12 o'clock at night; but on this occasion, at five minutes past 1, they were asked for £3,500,000. The right hon. Gentleman said he could not name a particular day on which hon. Members might have an opportunity of discussing questions connected with the Army, the Government having got into a mess with regard to their other Business. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that this money was very much wanted; but the hon. Member for Queen's County had pointed out that that statement was very incorrect, and it was very strange that the Army was in a far better position, as far as funds were concerned, than any other Service. Only two months had elapsed since the Army got £4,500,000-a sum sufficient for four months; so that that part of the case entirely broke down, unless there was something kept in the background. He suspected there were large expenses connected with the Transvaal, and so on, which had to be paid off, and which the Government did not wish to have discussed till their other Business was practically disposed of. He would urge the Committee not to allow this new principle to be introduced of asking for large sums without the opportunity of discussion at this late hour.

66

GENERAL BURNABY begged to move that the Chairman do leave the Chair. His reason for doing so was that this Vote comprised a great many soldiers' grievances-some of those shabby things which the Army were beginning to become alive to. For instance, he should like to know whether in the first item of £1,500,000, for the "Cost of Provisions," was comprised that portion of a soldier's rations which were deducted from his pay? It had been said by a general officer commanding the Home district that the notion that the soldier got his rations free was nothing but a snare and a delusion." There was nothing which so disappointed a soldier as to find that the lump of meat and portion of bread he got was all he got, and that his evening meal-bread, tea, coffee, potatoes, vegetables, &c., had to be deducted from his pay to the amount of 18s. 11d. per week. He also should like to know whether, under the head of "transport," was included the cost of a soldier's funeral from the place where he died to the place where he was buried? The sum of 358. had to be deducted from a soldier's effects and savings in the Regimental Savings' Bank, his effects being all his under garments, which the soldier had to pay for, and these were seized by the Paymaster after death, even to the shirt off his corpse, and sold by auction. Then, as to separation allowances for wives and families, he would like to know whether the Vote for "Cost of Provisions" included proper and full rations for those wives of soldiers married with leave and their children, when they were forcibly separated from the soldiers, who were fighting for their country? There were other things upon which the House should have full opportunity of discussion. He found that soldiers had to pay