Law (Ireland) Bill. I read it many | invest this gentleman, whoever he may times over in conjunction with a gentle- be, with any sort of glory by bringing man of the highest ability, character, him to the Bar; but, on the other hand, and patriotism, and I came to the con- I think that to put in motion the clusion that I was bound by every con- machinery of this House, and the ausideration of duty to support that mea- thority and dignity of the Chair, for the sure. Sir, I believe that a more tho- purpose of debarring from entering the rough measure was never introduced precincts of the House a gentleman who into Parliament. ["Question!"] Sir, has no title to be there-except such as it is the Question. I believe that a more is possessed by every one of the 4,000,000 thorough measure was never introduced people of this Metropolis and by the into Parliament; and I have no doubt 34,000,000 people of this Realm-would it will be carried through by the Go- be an operation too great, too serious, vernment and the Liberal Party un- for the end at which it aims; and, conflinchingly, and without allowing its sequently, I should hope that my hon. main provisions to be impaired. What- Friend will not put in movement such ever differences I may have with the machinery for a purpose apparently so Government on matters of general Irish trivial. But, besides the Motion before policy, I am resolved to co-operate with us, there is the discussion which has them loyally to carry this measure, as if arisen upon it, and to that I confess I those differences did not exist, or had attach no inconsiderable significance. never existed. I cannot claim to be In the first place, in the position I have more docile or tractable than other the honour to hold in this House, I Members; but I believe that I am as think it is only fair that I should render willing to hear what has to be said on my testimony as to the Gentlemen whose the other side of the question as any characters have been impugned. One other Gentleman, and to yield when I of them has sat here for a very short find reason against me. Long as I have time; the others have sat here for a been in the House I have never allowed considerable time. One of them has, I -and I never intend to allow-myself think, sat here for a very considerable to be carried on one side whilst my con- time; and I know of no title that any man victions are on the other. possesses to say one word reflecting on the Parliamentary character or conduct of any of the three. I am quite sure, with respect especially to the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power), who has been particularly attacked, that it was needless for him to challenge any man to cast imputations upon him, as he did in the strength of conscious innocence; because, so far as I am acquainted with the sentiments of this House-and I think I know the sentiments of a very large, and, perhaps, preponderating number of Members the very last thing they would think of doing, either at this moment or at previous periods, when the hon. Member may have been taking a political course different from ourselvos-that one of them would dream of would be to raise the slightest question as to his motives, or to throw the slightest doubt upon his honour. Another personage has, however, appeared upon the scene-namely, the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and the case stands thus:-We have before us a letter of the matter of which-whatever its importance may be-of the matter of which I imagine that almost, if not quite, MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, it appears to me that there are two matters which have come into our view on the present occasion. One is the Motion made by my hon. Friend, with respect to which, considering it nakedly in its terms, I apprehend there can be no doubt it is a proposition which must be affirmedthat is to say, that the letter which has been read is a breach of the Privileges of this House. I am not speaking now of the authorship of that letter; but the matter of the letter attaches to it that character. At the same time, I greatly doubt whether we ought not to endeavour to persuade my hon. Friend not to persist in the Motion that he has made. And for this reason. He himself has said that he thinks there is no advantage in enabling a person to aspire to the character of a martyr by calling him to the Bar of the House; and he suggests in lieu of that that you, Sir, in your official capacity, should order that this gentleman be debarred from entering the precincts of the House. I quite concur with my hon. Friend in thinking that we should not do well to The O'Donoghue every man in this House is of opinion that it is in a high degree libellous, scurrilous, and discreditable to the person who wrote it. Under these circumstances, the hon. Member for the City of Cork rises, and he describes the gentleman whose name appears at the close of this letter as his friend. [Mr. PARNELL: Hear, hear!] What course does he take in respect to the matter of the letter? He does not avow it, and he does not condemn it. But the measure that he takes is a measure to endeavour to throw the House off the scent as to the person who is really in question. "Do not, I entreat you," he says, "bring into accusation the proprietors or the writers of The Freeman's Journal," and he sets them forth as the victims whom the hon. Member for Galway has in view. Now, although I have had no communication with the hon. Member for Galway, I venture to say that these are not the persons he has in view. The summoning of the editor, or proprietor, or printer of The Freeman's Journal to the Bar would, I apprehend, be, if this were a matter which ought properly to be pursued, only a formal step on the road of detection of the real offender, and the real offender in this case is the gentleman whom the hon. Member for Cork has described as his friend and has tried to screen from our view. What I mean is this. The hon. Member for Cork says that we have no evidence as to the authorship of this letter-no evidence at all. We know that it was published in Dublin on Thursday in last week; we know that Mr. Egan exists; we trust that he is well; we think it probable that he has read this letter as published in The Freeman's Journal. And if Mr. Egan, being in existence, and being in the possession of sound Inind, and in possession of his health, and having read that letter, thinks that the appearance of that letter with his name at the foot of it does not call upon him for some disavowal, then, Sir-I am not speaking now of legal evidence, which I do not want, because I do not wish to proceed in the matter. [Mr. PARNELL Proceed, proceed.] I think we have the strongest moral evidence that the letter was written by Mr. Egan. But Mr. Egan is not to be regarded as an individual, but as a powerful and prominent officer of an organization; and that organization is the organization of which the hon. Member for the City of Cork is the centre and the soul. And this House has a right to know from the hon. Member for Cork whether he thinks this is the manner in which it becomes him and his agent to describe the Parliamentary proceedings of his Colleagues. I think he will feel the force of this appeal. He will be aware that they, and aware that we, have a right to know whether it is by means like these-by terrorism like this, as it has been justly called - I might, perhaps, say by terrorism of a kind not unlikely in certain circumstances and in certain places to be followed up by other measures-whether it is thus that the hon. Member seeks to establish peace, order, and liberty in Ireland? Sir, the writer of that letter, be he who he may, is a man in whose mouth every profession of a regard for liberty is a mockery and a delusion. And there could be no greater misfortune for Ireland than that the cause of her people should be disgraced by having its support and its propagation confided to such men. MR. HEALY, having referred to the avidity with which denunciations directed against Irish Members were listened to, said, it was exceedingly remarkable that though there was no collusion between the hon. Member for Galway and the hon. Member for Mayo, the hon. Member for Mayo should have so conveniently in his pocket the proofs of guilt of certain Members connected with the Land League. [Mr. O'CONNOR POWER said, he had got more.] If the Motion of the hon. Member for Galway were carried, and Mr. Egan should be excluded from the precincts of that House, he could only say that Mr. Egan, on the very first opportunity, would be found coming into that House in a representative character; and he, for one, if only to prove how utterly such sentiments as those which had proceeded from the hon. Member for Galway were discredited in Ireland, he, for one, would be willing to give way for him. He felt sure, no matter with what satisfaction such an arrangement might be regarded in that House, that that satisfaction would be nothing to the satisfaction which the constituency which he had the honour to represent would feel in having as a Representative a man so upright, a man who had spent so much of his time and of his money in the cause of Ireland as a Mr. Patrick Egan. He himself might | had been given to the hon. Member for have brought under the Speaker's notice Galway and the hon. Member below more gross and calumnious attack him, but he would have been rebuked made on himself and other Irish Mem- for wasting the time of the House, and bers, not in an Irish but in an English delaying an important measure. The newspaper; but he had refrained from statements made in the paper to which doing so, though he was called an Ob- he had just referred were as untrue as structive, because the Land Law (Ire- many others which appeared in English land) Bill was before the House; and newspapers about the Irish Members; he regretted that the hon. Member for and he would advise the hon. Member Galway, who professed to be more in for Galway and those who acted with favour of that measure, had not taken him to show some of the patience with the same course. He would read to the which the Irish Members on his side House four lines from that newspaper. bore the attacks directed against them. MR. H. SAMUELSON asked whether, on a Motion that a certain article in a newspaper was a Breach of Privilege, it was in Order for a Member to rise in his place and read other newspaper articles which he thought were injurious to him, but with respect to which he proposed to make no Motion to the House? MR. SPEAKER said, that the hon. Member for Wexford had a right to speak on the Question before the House. MR. HEALY said, as the hon. Member for Frome had never been noted MR. H. SAMUELSON wished to make himself understood before the hon. Member for Wexford proceeded to castigate him. Was the hon. Member in Order in reading an extract that had nothing whatever to do with the Question before the House, and upon which he founded no Motion? MR. SPEAKER said, that the hon. Member for Wexford was about to quote from a newspaper when the hon. Member for Frome interrupted him. MR. HEALY, after the reproof just addressed to the hon. Member for Frome, would let him severely alone. He would now read the extract to which he had alluded from a newspaper which he would not advertise by naming it. That paper said that of course Mr. Healy was put up by Mr. Parnell to oppose the Vote of Thanks to Sir Frederick Roberts and the troops engaged with him in the Afghan War; that if that young man was left to himself he would make a very good Member of Parliament; but, unfortunately, he was not only elected as a follower of Mr. Parnell, but also as an employé of that person, and if he did not obey orders the connection would terminate and the salary would cease. If he had brought that matter before the House he would not have received the sympathetic and cordial cheers which Mr. Healy MR. MITCHELL HENRY: I would ask the permission of the House to withdraw my Motion-["No, no!"]-after the noble vindication of the rights and privileges of Members of this House which that Motion has evoked from the Prime Minister, and which I trust will be a lesson to hon. Members, both as regards their conduct towards their fellowMembers and also as regards those with whom they associate themselves. I beg to withdraw my Motion. MR. A. M. SULLIVAN said, he did not intend to interfere in a scene which to him was exceedingly painful, and one which he regretted should at all have occupied the attention of the House; but the Prime Minister alluded just now to the fact that the hon. Member for Cork City claimed Mr. Egan as a personal friend; and he (Mr. Sullivan) confessed at a moment when such obloquy and denunciation were hurled at the head of a gentleman whom he had long called a friend, it would ill become him to refrain from saying that he shared with the hon. Member for Cork the privilege of calling Mr. Patrick Egan his friend. One might honestly differ from a friend, and one's friend might often say and do things which one might regrot. He read with sincere sorrow the letter of his friend Mr. Egan, for the sake of one passage contained in it. He had long known his hon. Friend behind him (Mr.O'Connor Power), and nothing within his knowledge or belief would ever induce him to sympathize with a charge reflecting upon his personal honour. He deplored that letter; but he complained of the Motion before the House, which must not be withdrawn. The hon. Member must not be allowed to make an empty parade. He knew that in attacking Mr. Egan amid screams of applause he was attacking Mr. Egan in a place where he could not be heard. | shut our eyes to the fact that this is not Mr. O'CONNOR POWER: Mr. Egan is an isolated letter which is written and well represented in this House.] Be- can be regarded as an isolated transacsides, Mr. Egan's letter had been re- tion. We cannot ignore the fact that plied to in Ireland in language which the letter must be taken in connection he could not trust himself to describe in with the proceedings of the body from that House. The hon. Member for Gal- which it is asserted the letter emanated. way had raised a scene which he knew It is impossible to close our eyes to the well the enemies of Ireland would gloat fact that there is a system of terrorism, over, which he knew was calculated to which is applied in the most unscrupuhold Ireland up to ridicule, and which lous manner, and of which this letter he knew every honest Irishman would may be, and appears to be, an example. deplore. Mr. Egan, owing to the in- And that being the case, I think this famous system which prevailed in Ire- House has no option but this-that it is land now, was driven from his home. bound to protect, as far as it can, its There was neither justice nor law in Ire- Members from attacks of the kind which land at present, when men were dragged are aimed at hon. Members, and calfrom their beds, and every protection culated to disparage, if possible, the which men should have in a free land honesty of their votes and proceedings. was denied. Mr. Egan had a large The hon. Members who have spoken in mercantile business in the City of Dublin, this debate may very safely leave their and in that city he had borne for years a characters in the hands of those who spotless reputation as a merchant and a have witnessed their conduct in this man of business. He seized that op- House. I can add nothing to what has portunity to claim Mr. Egan as his friend, been said by the Prime Minister on that and he should hardly be deterred from subject. But I do think it is a case in that course because the hon. Member for which, the charge having been made, Galway came there in his last Parlia- not by Mr. Egan as an individual, but ment to have it out with the people of as the representative-the treasurer-of Ireland by exhibiting their Represen- the Land League, and his action having tatives engaged in a discreditable quarrel been taken of and not disavowed in this of this kind. The hon. Member for the House, and the challenge, therefore, County of Galway had been no party to having been put with all that weight these charges whatever. He was in no and authority, it seems to me that it is way touched by the accusation. Let him quite impossible for us to do otherwise go through with his discreditable work. than give a vote which, undoubtedly, is Let him not fire his blank cartridge and that which the House will be bound to then run away. Let him bring the pub-give if the Motion of the hon. Member lisher and Mr. Egan before the Bar; and the House would find that Mr. Egan was as honourable a man as the Member for Galway ever associated with inside or outside the House. SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, it has more than once been my lot to take part in proceedings when letters or articles in the newspapers have been challenged as Breaches of Privilege in this House; and the general inclination of my mind, and my general course, has been to dissuade the House, as far as possible, from taking notice in a serious manner of imputations such as those that are cast upon the House, or its Members, in public newspapers. If this had been an ordinary case of that sort, I should entirely have agreed with those who think that that course should be pursued on the present occasion. But, Sir, I think that it is utterly impossible to is put. I should myself, under other circumstances, have joined in the request to the hon. Member to do that which he says he is willing to do-to withdraw his Motion, and leave the matter upon what has been said; but we are told that that course will not be allowed. We shall be challenged to vote, and I think it would be well for the hon. Member not to attempt to withdraw, but to take a vote on his Motion. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: No doubt, the declaration made by the hon. and learned Member for Meath (Mr. Sullivan) makes it impossible that the Motion should be withdrawn; and I think, under these circumstances, it will be advantageous that we should see who are the Members of this House who approve of this letter, and who declare it to be not an improper letter, and not a Breach of the Privileges of this House. Every man who votes against the Mo- | thizing with the astonishingly gross lantion is a man who approves this letter. guage used with regard to this question. ["No!"] The hon. Member for Cork He deprecated putting the whole maCity (Mr. Parnell) shakes his head. Has chinery of the House in motion, because he dared to say whether he approves this if they agreed to the Resolution they letter or disapproves? He is in a position would have to take further steps in the in which he dare not say one or the other. matter. He asked the House to reHe will not undertake in this House to member the conflict which they had last say he approves it, and he dare not say Session. out-of-doors that he disapproves it. That is the explanation of the position of the hon. Member for Cork City with reference to this disgraceful, this scandalous, this discreditable document. How is this production headed? This letter is headed thus in The Freeman's Journal"The following letter from Mr. Patrick Egan, Paris, treasurer of the Irish National Land League, was intended to be read at the meeting of the Land League yesterday, but it arrived too late." It is an official missive-an address to the Irish Land League. I challenge the hon. Member for Cork City to get up and deny that it was not sent as an official letter from the Irish Land League to The Freeman's Journal. Will he dare get up and justify this letter in the face of the House? If he does not, then I venture to say there is no man in England, Scotland, or Ireland, who will not say that the letter signed "P. Egan," and the spirit and sentiment it expresses, are the sentiments of the hon. Member for Cork City. It is his policy, his spirit, his actions, which are expressed in every line of that letter. The hon. Member for Cork City and those who follow him will vote their approbation of this letter, and they will say that it is not a Breach of the Privileges of this House; but I believe that a great and overwhelming majority of the Representatives of the people of the three countries-the Gentlemen who are Members of the House of Commons-will affirm the Motion which has been brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Galway, and declare that language of this description is scandalous, and a Breach of the Privileges of this House. LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE wished to point out that the debate was rather drifting away from the Question which was before the House. They were getting into a discussion upon the conduct and character of the hon. Member for Cork, and that was not the Question before them. No one in that House would be suspected of sympaSir William Harcourt LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL said, that he needed not to express his hearty concurrence in the remarks which had fallen from his noble Friend. He thought the best course to pursue was that the Motion should be negatived, and that they should proceed with the Land Law (Ireland) Bill. He would point out that if the Motion were carried, it would be absolutely necessary that the publishers and printers of The Freeman should be summoned to the Bar of the House, in order to get at the writer. That would come on after to-morrow or Thursday; then the discussion would follow. But another question might arise, as the letter was written from a foreign country, and hardly came within the jurisdiction of the House. There was no doubt that the hon. Member for Galway would have withdrawn his Motion if it had not been for the speech of the Home Secretary, who always came forward on these occasions as the Bombastes Furioso of debate denouncing everybody right and left. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman's Colleagues would regret that he had ever made that extraordinary speech. Whenever the right hon. Gentleman saw an oppor tunity of making an attack upon any Member of the House, he could not resist it. If the Land Bill of the Government was obstructed and did not make progress, they would have nobody to blame but themselves and the foolish and stupid advice of the Home Secretary. MR. LABOUCHERE: I think, Sir SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I rise to Order, Sir. [Cries of "Order!"] MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman, having risen to a point of Order, is entitled to be heard. Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT not rising again, MR. LABOUCHERE said, he disapproved entirely of the letter of Mr. Egan, and thought it was quite unnecessary for the hon. Member for Mayo and his Friends to ask the House to say |