that monstrous set of fabrications had been laid before the House; and to say that "the sense of the House" could be taken on that was a mere juggling with words and paltering with the intelligence of the House. The noble Marquess should be reminded that the people of Ireland were not to be treated by the noble Marquess as he treated the Natives of India. MR. T. P. O'CONNOR wished to know whether the Government were or were not going to give them an opportunity of discussing the affairs of Ireland? (Mr. O'Donnell) an opportunity of contributing some observations to the elucidation of the Government case. Then came the Chief Secretary with a speech of two hours' duration, leaving about 30 minutes for exposing the monstrous tissue of misrepresentations which had been imposed upon that innocent and incredulous person. The Whips had issued their mandate, and the Government were prepared with their strong battalions. The bulk of the Liberal Party had only been present at the observations; but they were to snuff out the Irish debate by voting blindfold,["No, no!"] [Mr. FINIGAN: Hear, in trust upon the observations of the hear! Excellent Radicalism.] He (Mr. Chief Secretary alone. Such a manner T. P. O'Connor) heard replying to his of treating Irish affairs was something question the voice of an hon. Member like adding insult to injury. He would who had added little to his dignity by ask the noble Marquess to use some of unseemly squabbling during the course his influence to induce a more economic of his election. He had put his quesuse of time in the discussion of the Land tion to the Government, and not to the Bill, so as to enable Irish Members to hon. Member. Early in the evening he bring forward the very grave charges had informed the right hon. Gentleman they had to bring forward against the the Prime Minister that they would not Irish Administration. He was not aware begin the discussion of the Motion of the what opportunity could be given for hon. Member for Longford at 12 o'clock discussing the affairs of Ireland, if the at night. They wanted an earlier discusnoble Lord and those who acted with sion, and would have been perfectly prehim persisted in encouraging their fol- pared to go on with the debate at 10 lowers to take up the time of the House o'clock if they had been allowed. The in unnecessary discussions on the Land Prime Minister, the Secretary of State Bill, to give the Government an excuse for India, and several other speakers on for shelving every discussion on every the Treasury Bench, had laid great stress subject. There were a large number on the decision of the House being given of Amendments, some of which were to on this question. He might say, on his the effectown behalf, and on behalf of several hon. Friends behind him, that they had very little regard for what the decision of the House might be. They were not so foolish as to suppose that their Motion of Censure against the Irish Executive would be carried in that House. They knew that, necessarily, they would be in a miserable minority; but what they wanted was a fair discussion, in which their side, as well as the Government side, of the question would be laid before the public of this country and the people of Ireland. What was the position of affairs at the present time? Why, the real speech which was before the country was that which the Chief Secretary delivered on Tuesday afternoon. The right hon. Gentleman ended his speech at 10 minutes or a quarter past 6 in the evening. The contested Business at these Morning Sittings had to be concluded at 10 minutes to 7, so that the Irish Members had only had THE CHAIRMAN: I must point out that the hon. Member is going beyond the Motion before the House. He is discussing the Amendment. MR. O'DONNELL said, he was sorry he had been misled, but he understood the Secretary of State for India had introduced the necessity for discussing the Land Bill. He (Mr. O'Donnell) did not wish to mention the words of the Bill, but only to say that the Government should not bring forward the Land Bill as a convenient extinguisher of every matter that was proposed for discussion. Repressive measures were working as badly as possible for the Government, and he could assure them that this Motion would remain hanging over their heads, and that, in season or out of season, they must have an opportunity of showing that the Chief Secretary had been imposed upon by a monstrous set of fabrications. As yet nothing but Mr. O'Donnell manner, they would not give Irish Members an hour for the purpose of discussing the Motion of his hon. Friend. It was clear that the Government did not wish the speech of the Chief Secretary to be replied to. from 10 minutes past 6 to 10 minutes | coercion to Ireland in the most brutal to 7 to answer a speech of an hour and a-half in length. His hon. Friend then took up this question, which was entirely unconnected with the real question at issue, and the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, carefully prepared, very ably put together, and characterized by his usual dexterity in putting his case, was allowed to go before the country without any reply on the part of Irish Members. The Government must understand that they would not be permitted to dismiss the House for the Whitsuntide Vacation until Irish Members had had an opportunity of giving a full reply to the speech of the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He did not wish to discuss this Vote at so late an hour if he could avoid it; but Irish Members could not allow it to pass without discussion, inasmuch as it raised the whole question of the Government policy in Ireland. MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY renewed the suggestion made to the noble Marquess that he should consent to take the Land Bill up to 10 o'clock on Thursday night, and allow Irish Members to go on with this discussion at that hour. The two hours that would be thus given would not be much time to take from the discussion on the Land Bill; and if the opportunity were afforded, Irish Members would have the satisfaction of knowing that their case had gone before the country. He trusted that this proposal, which was made with the object of arriving at a convenient settlement of the difficulty, would be accepted by the noble Marquess. MR. CALLAN hoped the noble Marquess would not yield to the proposal of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy), inasmuch as the Land Bill was of far more importance than any other subject at the present time. He suggested to the Government that instead of having Morning Sittings on Tuesdays and Fridays, they should take the entire days until the Bill had been disposed of, and that the progress of the Bill should not be interfered with by the discussion of any other subject. MR. HEALY remarked that, notwithstanding the solicitude of the Government to pass a Land Bill for Ireland, they had occupied the time of the House for six or eight weeks in discussions on Coercion Bills, and that, after applying THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I entirely acknowledge the courteous tone in which the proposal of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) has been made; and if I thought it was possible to meet his wishes with regard to Thursday night, without seriously interfering with the further discussion of the Land Law (Ireland) Bill, I should be very happy to accede to a proposal so fairly made. But I wish to point out that the suggestion would, unfortunately, reduce the time which we should be able on Thursday to devote to the consideration of the Bill in Committee to perhaps two or three hours. It is too frequently the case now that we do not reach Committee until an advanced time in the evening; and if we are to adjourn the debate at 10 o'clock on Thursday, the day would be almost entirely lost for the purposes of the Bill. I must also point out that it would not be in the power of the Government to secure the object in view in that way. It frequently hap pens that when an important debate is proposed to be adjourned at an early hour, all sorts of opposition is raised to that Motion. Therefore, if we proposed to adjourn the debate at 10 o'clock on Thursday, it might be impossible to secure the opportunity desired by the hon. Member for Longford. If hon. Members from Ireland are really anxious that this debate should be renewed, I ask whether it would not be possible to renew it on Friday next? If so, Her Majesty's Government will do all in their power to induce Members, having Notices of Motion on going into Committee of Supply, to withdraw them, and would take measures for making and keeping a House in the evening. MR. PARNELL thought the Government had made the best proposal in their power, and for his own part was perfectly willing to accede to it. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. The Committee divided:-Ayes 18; Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock. Committee to sit again upon Wednesday. SUPPLY-REPORT. Resolution [27th May] reported. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution." MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR moved that the Vote be re-committed. The Vote, he said, was brought on at 10 o'clock on Saturday morning and it was represented by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War that it was absolutely necessary that it should be taken, and that it was a Vote which might be passed without much discussion. As a matter of fact, this particular Vote required to be very carefully scrutinized and canvassed by the House. Year after year it had been rapidly increasing. In 1875-6 it amounted to £2,950,000; but that was a great deal more than was really required, inasmuch as at the end of the financial year the War Office had in their hands no less than £95,000. In 1876-7 the Estimate went up to £2,997,000, and again there was a surplus. The increase went on, and in 1877-8, including the Supplementary Estimate, the Vote was £3,188,000; but this sum was in fact exceeded by no less a sum than £282,000. In 1878-9 the Estimate, including the Supplementary, amounted to £3,800,000, and this was exceeded by £500,000. In 1879-80 the original Estimate was exceeded by £2,000,000. In 1880-1 the Estimate fell to £2,790,000; and now the sum asked for amounted to £3,500,000. Now, the War Office authorities had already obtained under Vote 1, £4,500,000. The present Vote would put them in possession of £8,000,000. The total of the Army Estimates for the year was about £16,000,000, and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Childers) wished the House to understand that it was absolutely necessary before the end of the second month of the financial year that one-half of the Army Estimates should be voted. It seemed to be perfectly impossible that the War Office could require that 50 per cent of the whole of the Army expenditure should be voted so early in the financial year. It was hardly reasonable that a Vote which covered almost every ground of Army administration should be taken at 2 o'clock in the morning. The Vote was for food, forage, fuel, and light, lodging allowances, field allowances, grants for home and abroad, besides miscellaneous sources-in fact, it was difficult to understand what part of Army administration might not be affected, at any rate, by the Vote. It was a Vote which might very properly provoke criticism; but the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War represented that it was just the reverse. Some Members in the House on Saturday morning expostulated; but the Secretary of State for War seemed to think it was exceedingly unreasonable of them to do so. The hon. Baronet the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Sir Henry Holland) went so far as to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should be content to take one-half of the Vote, and leave the other half as a ground for raising any criticism which might appear on some subsequent occasion to be called for. If the right hon. Gentleman had agreed to this suggestion, he (Mr. A. O'Connor) would not have raised a single objection. The noble Lord the Financial Secretary to the Treasury did not urge any of the Civil Service Estimates, on the ground that it was too late an hour. It seemed extraordinary that when it was too late to take the Civil Service Estimates, which in amount did not equal this single Vote, the Secretary of State for War should press on this Vote. When the Vote was brought on the Committee was scarcely in a mood to consider the Vote properly, and the consequence was there was a great deal of heated discussion, which did not conduce to the proper appreciation of the subject. Included in the Vote were a number of items which might fairly be criticized, especially under present circumstances. There were charges for the continuance of soldiers upon work which certainly Irish Members could not be expected to countenance. It was only fair the House should consent to have the Vote re-committed, to admit of proper discussion. He now moved that that course should be adopted. Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the said Resolution be re-committed," Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." MR. R. N. FOWLER said, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. A. O'Connor) seemed to think the Vote was passed on Saturday morning after a short discussion. As a matter of fact, the discussion occupied from 1 o'clock to 5; and that, notwithstanding the importance of the Vote, could not be considered an inadequate consideration. After the long discussion on Saturday morning, and after a responsible Minister of the Crown, supported by his Predecessor in Office, had declared that it was necessary the Vote should be taken at once, it seemed unreasonable that it should be further postponed. MR. BIGGAR said, the greater part of the Sitting on Saturday morning was occupied in discussing the Motion for Adjournment. On account of the lateness of the hour no report of the proceedings of the House could be made; and although, no doubt, a large majority of the Members were in favour of granting the money, it was not wise to set aside the established and very salutary custom which had heretofore been looked upon as almost the law of the House namely, the custom of considering Votes of such large sums at an early hour of the evening. Question put, and agreed to. Main Question put, and agreed to. MINUTES.] SELECT COMMITTEE Stationery Office (Controller's Report), appointed. PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-Land Drainage Provisional Orders (104); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Bandon, &c.) (105); Local Government Provisional Orders (Halifax, &c.) * (106). Second Reading - Veterinary Surgeons (87); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2) * (88). Second Reading Committee negatived Third Reading Customs and Inland Revenue* (98), and passed. Referred to Select Committee-Stolen Goods* (86). Committee-Report-Local Government Provisional Orders (Berwick-upon-Tweed, &c.) (85). VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL. (No. 87.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read. It LORD ABERDARE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to prevent the assumption of the title of veterinary surgeon by unqualified persons. provided for the infliction of a penalty on persons practising as duly qualified veterinary surgeons without first having become members of the Veterinary Col LAND LAW (IRELAND) [PAYMENT OF IN- lege. It was not intended to interfere DEMNITY, ADVANCES, SALARIES, EXPENSES, &C.]. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, of any indemnity which may be given by the Land Commission, also the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of sums required for advances or purchase of Estates, as well as of the salaries of Commissioners and others, and of the expenses incurred by the Land Commission, which may become payable under the provisions of any Act of the present Session to further amend the Law relating to the occupation and ownership of Land in Ireland, and for other purposes relating thereto. of the clock. Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock. VOL. CCLXI. [THIRD SERIES.] with persons who acted as farriers or treated cattle without professing to be veterinary surgeons. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2"." (The Lord Aberdare.) EARL SPENCER said, he was able, on the part of the Government, to support the second reading of the Bill. In some parts of the country there was a considerable deficiency in the number of trained veterinary surgeons. It was important in carrying out the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to encourage as far as possible the veterinary science; but beyond that he thought it was of the greatest possible importance that whilst they endeavoured to prevent the 3 L spread of infectious diseases amongst cattle they should try to mitigate the severity of the diseases themselves which were a source of very great loss to the farmers in this country. Every measure, therefore, that would have the effect of improving the position of veterinary surgeons would deserve their Lordships' support. He could not help thinking that some of the clauses of the Bill went rather further than they should. No doubt every person who assumed a title to which he had no right should be liable to some prosecutions; but he did not think if any person chose to consult a cow doctor, or anyone who presumed to have a knowledge of a certain cattle disease without being able to call himself a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, that the law ought to object. Thus, in the 3rd clause, the words "or veterinary practitioner;" and, again, "or otherwise qualified practitioner" might, strictly construed, apply to many people qualified to practice veterinary surgery, but who could not under this Bill assume the title of veterinary surgeon. Subject to the objections he had indicated, and which could be amended in Committee, he would support the measure. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, he wished to point out that there was a very important body in Edinburgh called the Edinburgh Veterinary College, which had a large staff of Professors, and was thoroughly competent to give perfect and adequate instruction in veterinary science. When he held the Office he had the honour to hold in Ireland in connection with the late Government, they had frequently selected practitioners. who had been educated at that College for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act in Ireland. They always had the greatest possible confidence in the diplomas given to persons educated in that College, and in no case had they found that they had acted improperly in appointing persons educated there. To all intents and purposes the gentlemen educated there were veterinary surgeons in the highest sense of the term; and he thought it would be a very sweeping enactment to say that no person should call himself a veterinary surgeon save and except those who had been educated at the Royal College of Surgeons in London. The noble Lord (Lord Aber Earl Spencer dare) had not stated the reasons why he had excluded that College; and perhaps he would inform them now, before the Bill was read a second time, why he had taken that course. It seemed to him (the Duke of Marlborough) desirable that every precaution should be taken for the protection of the veterinary science, and for providing duly quali fied practitioners; but he thought it would be sufficient if every person who called himself veterinary surgeon should put letters after his name indicating in what College he had been educated. The term veterinary surgeon was, no doubt, a source of some amount of pride and gratification to persons following the Profession; and he thought it would be unfair if they shut out such a scientific body as the Edinburgh Veterinary College from allowing its members to attach the title veterinary surgeon to their name. LORD ABERDARE said, he would entirely concur in the objection if it were well founded; but he wished to point out to the noble Duke that this Bill had been brought in with the full knowledge. and consent of the Royal Highland Society. The Charter of that Society was for the purpose of recognizing all the degrees already conferred by the Highland and Agricultural Society of Scotland. [The noble Lord here read an extract from the Charter, setting forth the object for which it was granted, and stating that an arrangement had been entered into with the Royal College of Surgeons in London that no diplomas should henceforth be given by the Highland Society.] THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY pointed out that there were two or three Colleges of this kind in Scotland, two in Edinburgh, and one in Glasgow, which were capable of giving diplomas. They were all under the Charter. It seemed rather hard to say that nobody except persons educated in a particular College should hold the title of veterinary surgeon. It was almost the same as saying that general practitioners who had not been educated in a particular College should not be allowed to call themselves doctors. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 16th of June next. |