Member obtained the assistance of the | to second; and he would point out Government, because his plan would be that the hon. and gallant Member less expensive than their own. Then the was satisfied that the machinery by hon. and gallant Member moved for a which these ends could be accomplished Committee to inquire into the cause of was the Board of Guardians, and that the failure of the potato cropwas the point to which he was adverting when interrupted. While seconding the hon. and gallant Member's Motion generally, having used the rea MR. A. MOORE rose to Order, on the ground that the noble Lord was making observations which had no bearing upon the Motion of the hon. and gallant Mem-sons and arguments upon the potato ber for Galway. MR. SPEAKER ruled that the noble Lord was in Order. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL thanked the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair for putting down disorderly interruption. With regard to the machinery suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway for relieving the poor people of Ireland, he thought that it would be in the highest degree imprudent to entrust the Boards of Guardians with any further powers or responsibility in the matter. What, he asked, had been the result of the Bill of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, by which he had placed in the hands of the Boards of Guardians power to raise funds for supplying the people with potatoes? Why, it was notorious that in may parts of the West of Ireland the Boards of Guardians either took no trouble at all to see that proper seed was purchased, or crop which appeared to him to be germane, he now ventured rather to criticize that particular detail, the machinery, which the hon. and gallant Member would adopt. With all respect, he would submit to Mr. Speaker that his remarks approached nearer to the question than would appear to him (Mr. Speaker). THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Mr. Speaker, I put it to you whether the noble Lord is not trifling with the time of the House? SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: May I call your attention to the fact, Mr. Speaker, that there are no Members of the Government present but the Legal Representatives of Ireland. I protest against the Solicitor General for Ireland's interference with the noble Lord. MR. SPEAKER: As I informed the noble Lord, I understood that he rose to second the Motion. His observations seem to me to be of a critical character, and certainly not in support of the Resolution. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL : dians in Ireland; and, if I may be alI was referring to the Boards of Guarlowed to say so, the Solicitor General for Ireland has not had a very long experience of this House MR. SPEAKER: I must call on the noble Lord not to address himself to an hon. Member, but to the Chair. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL : Yes, Mr. Speaker; I would put it to you, whether Members, even though they be " right hon." Members, should not leave it to you to call hon. Members to Order, and particularly when they have not had very long experience of the House? If they would not be in such a hurry to interrupt THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): I rise to Order. I really would ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the noble Lord is not trifling with the House? And I ask | blown about in the air were absurd and the House whether he is not still more rested on no scientific foundation. The trifling with them by not addressing himself to the Chair? MR. SPEAKER: As I have said, the noble Lord must address himself to the Chair. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL said, he certainly intended to do so, and would, perhaps, be more successful in his attempt if he were not interrupted by hon. Members. He had been saying that the Boards of Guardians had not proved themselves to be the most trustworthy machinery for such a purpose as that stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan). There was a strong belief in Ireland that in many cases the Boards of Guardians had laid themselves open to the suspicion-to say the least of it-of acting from interested motives. This was a fact, and he had no doubt there were Irish Members present who were prepared to say that there was no exaggeration in this statement. He did not think that even the Solicitor General for Ireland could get up and deny it. Whilst agreeing with the hon. and gallant Member in his project, he was justified in criticizing this particular detail. He most strongly objected to any further experiment being made by the Government of the day with the object of entrusting Boards of Guardians with public funds to carry out the wish of the hon. and gallant Member. There were other bodies, no doubt, who would be able to carry out the hon. and gallant Member's object. He was not at all sure that the Grand Jury would not be able to do it. The Grand Jury was composed principally of people interested in the soil. They were landlords, the payment to whom of rent largely depended on the prolific growth of potatoes in a large portion of Ireland. The Grand Jury was also composed of a class of men who would be less liable to imputations of interested motives than Boards of Guardians. No doubt, there were some hon. Members from Ireland who would agree with him in that view. Then, the hon. and gallant Member had drawn the attention of the House to the desirability of "promoting the creation and establishment of new varieties of the potato.' "It had been discovered and shown almost irrefutably that all the theories about the potato seed being The Solicitor General for Ireland fact was that a particular seed, planted and grown in the ordinary method of Irish cultivation-which was not the highest form of cultivation-after a very few years got worn out. In Ireland the soil was not carefully manured and the potatoes were grown in a very careless way; frequently they were not cut up, but put into the ground whole. Year after year this process went on, the worst potatoes being selected for seed and the best for food; and there was no doubt whatever that in about seven years of such treatment as this any kind of potato would become diseased. Of course, where the Champions had been used-whether they had been distributed by the Relief Committees or by the Boards of Guardians-there had been a very satisfactory result; crops almost incredible for their prolific character had been produced. But where the old kinds had been planted-the Regent and the Derry Blue - which were kinds with which, no doubt, some hon. Members were best acquainted, they had turned out most unfortunately, and had not produced the result which had been expected. Therefore, it was very important that the Government should take steps to supply the Irish people, or to assist the Irish people to supply themselves with these Champion potatoes, which appeared to be, with the excep tion of the Magnum Bonum-[Laughter.] he did not know why hon. Members laughed. It was very extraordinary that they should find anything peculiar in this, because these Magnum Bonums were well known; though it was, comparatively, a rare kind of tuber. It had not been tried in Ireland to any great extent. In England it had proved very successful; and if the Government would take steps to bring these recently discovered kinds, the Champion and the Magnum Bonum, within the reach of the Irish people they would be acting to the advantage of Ireland and taking steps to prevent the recurrence of that distress which we had seen in that couutry in 1879. Then the hon. and gallant Member proceeded to recommend the Government to facilitate the progress further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the potato disease, and in this he (Lord Randolph Churchill) agreed. No doubt, the Go of vernment had at present in Ireland establishments which could be advan tageously used for these experiments. As the hon. and gallant Member had pointed out, they had the establishment at Glasnevin the agricultural farm under the experienced direction of Professor Baldwin. If that agricultural establishment could be turned to some Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that Her Majesty's Government should take steps to carry into effect such of the recommendations of the Potato Crop Committee of 1880 as relate to Ireland, by promoting the creation and establishment of new varieties of the Potato; by facilitating the progress of further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the Potato Disease; and by bring. of sound seed to be obtained for cash payments." (Major Nolan.) within the reach of small farmers supplies THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON) said, it was exceedingly to be regretted that the noble Lord, when he had the opportunity, had not availed himself of it to acquire more accurate knowledge of Ireland, and especially of the potato question. SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF rose to Order. He wished to ask whether the Solicitor General for Ireland was in Order in using language of this character to an hon. Member of the House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Gentleman is in Order. such use as that the hon. and gallanting THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON), continuing, said, having regard to the national importance of the question, and to the particular condition of Ireland, not only now but, unhappily, periodically, the thanks of the House were due to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for introducing the subject to the notice of the House. Whatever might be said about hon. Members for Ireland introducing speculative questions, his hon. and gallant Friend had brought before the House a subject which was of the most vital importance to the very existence of Ireland. Political economy and chemical analysis might tell them that potatoes were very bad things; but as a matter of fact they were the food of hundreds and thousands of men who had shed their blood on every field of battle where honour had been achieved by British arms. Unfortunately, by constantly using the same kind of potato it had become worn out, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman had put before the House a plain and practical questionnamely, that inasmuch as they must admit that the people of Ireland would grow and could grow potatoes, that they could and would live largely on potatoes, it must be decided how they were to get seed that would not fail, and how famine was to be avoided. A problem of this kind could, no doubt, be best and most usefully solved by a Ministerial Department for Agriculture and Commerce, to the appointment of which the Government, practically, assented the other day upon the Motion of the hon. Baronet (Sir Massy Lopes). The noble Lord had suggested using the Grand Juries in Ireland for this purpose. He (the Solicitor General for Ireland) did not consider this practicable; they met only twice in the year, at each Assizes, and were only occupied a few days at each meeting. That such bodies could administer any fund for the advantage of the cultivation of potatoes was perfectly impossible. [Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Why?] The noble Lord asked why? He (the Solicitor General for Ireland) had already stated the reason. Grand Juries were not continuing bodies; they were only nominated at each Assizes; and at those two periods of the year transacted fiscal as well as criminal business, and they had no organization suitable for the objects contemplated by the Motion before the House. With reference to Boards of Guardians, he would submit to the House that they were the bodies who would be the most efficient in administering the Relief Fund suggested; they were acquainted with the individual wants in the various localities, and knew where good seed was required and the best means of obtaining it. What was wanted in Ireland was fresh and not worn-out seed. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) would probably agree with him that the experiments he suggested would be most effectually carried out by the National Agricultural Society rather than by a Government Department. If agricultural schools existed, they might have been made useful for this purpose; but the only institutions of this kind in Ireland had been the agricultural schools in connection with the National Board, and their history, he was sorry to say, had been of a most unpromising character. [Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Question!] The noble Lord cried "Question!" He was sorry to see the noble Lord failed still to grasp the real question. The agricultural schools at one time flourished very successfully in Ireland. The Solicitor General for Ireland LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL : I wish to know, Sir, if the Solicitor General for Ireland is in Order in turning his back on the Chair when addressing the House? FOR THE SOLICITOR GENERAL IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): The interruption of the noble Lord, which I presume the Speaker will take no notice of LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: After the observation of the hon. and learned Gentleman, I must ask you, Sir, is it competent for a Member of the House to turn his back on the Speaker when addressing the House? MR. SPEAKER: It must be within the knowledge of every Member of this House that the Chair is to be addressed. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON) said, that no one could for a moment imagine that he intended disrespect to the Chair by any position in which he might stand when addressing the House. He was about to say that the agricultural schools in connection with the National Board fell through because the education given in them was of too theoretical a character. There were now but two agricultural schools in Ireland which survived, and that in Cork would have been actually given up had it not been for the great exertions of the Agricultural Society. The course suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to improve the potato crop in Ireland could not be successfully carried out at this moment, and he hoped the hon, and gallant Member would be satisfied with having ventilated the question, and with having obtained the assurance that he might depend upon it that the Department of Agriculture and Commerce would, when appointed, take the subject in hand. At present there was no immediate necessity for action, for the potatoes were now not only above the ground, but he was glad to say they promised to yield a good crop. MR. GIVAN said, that with regard to the speech of the noble Lord, he must express his surprise that the time of the House was trifled with to such an extent. It was melancholy in the state of Public Business to see the time of the House deliberately wasted by the noble Lord. He disapproved of the suggestion of the noble Lord that any fund for the distribution of seed potato should be entrusted to the Grand Jury in preference to the Boards of Guardians. His hon. and gallant Friend had suggested a very sensible and practical mode in which provision might be made out of the public funds to secure suitable and good seed potatoes in Ireland. Only a grant of £200 would be required, and he hoped the Government would, at any rate, accept the proposal in a modified form. MR. CALLAN said, no hope had been held out to them by the Solicitor General for Ireland that the course suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) would be adopted. There were some Members in the House who, whenever an Irish subject was introduced, felt bound to drag in the Land League. The hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) had suggested that the funds of the Land League should be devoted to the experiments under discussion. As far as the Land League was concerned, the hon. Member reminded him of a character in "David Copperfield"-Mr. Dick, who never could Notice taken, that 40 Members were House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock, till Thursday. MR. MITCHELL HENRY said, if they had to wait till the establishment of a Board of Agriculture, or Minister of Agriculture, they would have to wait long enough, he was afraid, for the ex- get Charles I. out of his head-periment. There were several bodies in Ireland who might make the experiment as to the growth of new varieties not present; House counted, and 40 of potatoes. Several agricultural bodies Members not being present, already did so; but there was a powerful body in Ireland which probably possessed larger funds than any other body in that part of the Kingdom, and which was constituted for the purpose of promoting the interests of the tenants of Ireland he referred to the Land League. Seeing opposite hon. Gentlemen who had a good deal to do with that Association, and who had some influence over its funds, he could not lose the opportunity of suggesting to them that these experiments might be very wisely performed by them. If they could discover for the small farmers the best kind of potatoes to cultivate for the purpose of eking out their living, they would do that which all the world would consider patriotic; and he was quite sure they would find a solace in the endeavour for the heated contests in which they had been so long engaged. MR. A. MOORE said, it had been clearly demonstrated by evidence that one kind of potato could not be expected to last more than 12 years. The Champion was a great success, but it could not be expected to last for more than 20 years at the most; and in the meantime efforts ought to be made to propagate a new species. A very large sum of money was annually spent at Kew; he would suggest that some portion of that money be devoted to the propagation of new varieties of potatoes. He wished to suggest that Boards of Guardians in Ireland should be enabled to sell fresh seed at cost price. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 2nd June, 1881. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE-Stationery Office (Controller's Report), nominated. PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading-Local Government (Gas) Provisional Orders (93); Local Government Provisional Order (Birmingham) (94); Local Government Provisional Orders (Brentford Union, &c.)* (95). Committee-Report-Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2)* (88). PORTUGAL—THE LOURENCO MARQUEY QUESTIONS. OBSERVATIONS. LORD LAMINGTON, in rising to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Lourenço Marquey Delagoa Bay Treaty of May 1879, between Great Britain and Portugal has ever been ratified; and also what our present position is as regards the power of embarking and disembarking troops in Delagoa Bay with a free passage through Portuguese territory to the Transvaal? said, in putting the Question, he hoped that he should be permitted to remind their |