hon. Members. We intend to bear it | House to the grievance of having a conundivided, and to confine ourselves which would be our duty if the case arose-to defending ourselves from any and every allegation that may be made against us. MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY failed to find in the right hon. Gentleman's speech any answer to the arguments of the hon. Member for the City of Cork. The right hon. Gentleman did not show by any Resolution or by any clause in the Act that Parliament prevented the Chief Secretary for Ireland from giving this information in cases where it was thought fair and right to do so. It was entirely in the discretion of the Government, if they pleased, to answer the questions which had been put-they could give the reasons why the hon. Member for Tipperary was arrested by the Irish Executive. The right hon. Gentleman complained that the Motion which stood in his (Mr. Justin M'Carthy's) name was not proceeded with, and protested that the Government were eager to meet it. But he would ask what chance was there of bringing it on at a reasonable hour for discussion? The right hon. Gentleman only suggested that if he waited his chance he would, no doubt, be able to bring the Motion before the House. That was to say he might be able to bring it on at the fag end of a long discussion, perhaps at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, when he should be speaking to empty Benches. The right hon. Gentleman was willing enough on two or three occasions to interrupt the course of Business in the House for the purpose of introducing questions which might very well have waited. He was willing to interrupt the course of important Public Business in order to propose a Vote of Thanks to men engaged in a war which he himself little more than a year ago condemned as a crime. He was willing to interrupt the course of Business to propose a National Monument to the memory of a statesman of whom he had said not long since that he had given some of the best years of his life to thwarting and opposing his policy. He (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) did not find fault with him for taking that course; he only mentioned it to show how easily he found an opportunity for interrupting the Business of the House for any purpose which he himself wished to carry out. The right hon. Gentleman had referred in that stituency deprived of one of its Representatives. For the purpose of preventing such a thing he was prepared to give up the time of the House to a most disagreeable and unnecessary discussion, especially at this period of the Session; but when they caine to raise the question whether the act of the Government had not practically disfranchised Tipperary, he had no suggestion to make, except that anyone who had a Motion to make on the subject might wait for his chance, and take the first chance he got. If he (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) was not mistaken, the event which they were discussing was absolutely without precedent in Parliamentary history. He believed there was no other case, so far as he could recollect, in which a Member of that House was arrested and imprisoned under the same conditions as his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary. Mr. Smith O'Brien was sent to prison on a direct charge, openly made and formally recorded against him; and he was, on the first opportunity, brought before a public Court of Law, and tried for the alleged offence. But in this case his hon. Friend was arrested and consigned to prison without himself or any of his friends having any chance of knowing what was the exact charge on which he was committed, and whether he was fairly suspected of being guilty of it. This, he did not hesitate to say, was without precedent in, and reflected discredit upon, a civilized country. His hon. Friend was coming over to Parliament to ask the Government whether the charges which he had made against landlords in regard to the evictions going on were not correct. No reasons had been given by the Government to justify the course which they had adopted; and, therefore, many persons would sce in the arrest not the act of legitimate authority, but the desperate stratagem of a political partizan. If the health of his hon. Friend should be seriously injured by his imprisonment, and if the worst should result from it, he would not be the first who had sacrificed his life for the benefit of the Irish people. The speech which his hon. Friend (Mr. Parnell) had made was not in the nature of a plaintive appeal to Her Majesty's Government for mercy to his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary, but was a note of warning to them of the serious and important responsibility which they had taken upon themselves in having, without reasonable cause, arrested an hon. Member of that House, and in continuing to detain him in prison. Her Majesty's Government had also incurred the responsibility of proclaiming a great, populous, and peaceful city like Dublin, and of placing it in a state of siege by a stroke of the pen. Mr. Justice Fitzgerald, who certainly was not an admirer of the Land League, shortly before the Government took that step had declared the state of Dublin to be eminently tranquil; and, indeed, the only ground that the Chief Secretary himself had assigned for proclaiming that city was because one or two speeches had been made in it of which the Government did not approve. Could a parallel case be found in modern history, a case in which a great peaceful city had been placed in a state of siege merely because one or two persons, whose very names were not given, had made speeches which were disapproved by a Member of the Government of the day? He admitted that the course which had been pursued on this occasion of moving the adjournment of the House was somewhat irregular; but the Irish Members had felt bound to take it in order to bring a matter of utmost urgency under the notice of the House and of the country. The right hon. Gentleman had said that Her Majesty's Government were compelled, in the first place, to make the laws of the country respected and obeyed in Ireland. He (Mr. Justin M Carthy) supposed they could exact and enforce a sort of sullen obedience to the law by the use of their military and police; but to make the law respected in Ireland was not within the power of all their police or all their soldiery until they made the law different from what it was, and administered it otherwise than they did at present. MR. W. E. FORSTER said, he thought that the course adopted by the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) was unfair and unreasonable. It was in the power of the hon. Member to have brought forward that night the Motion of which he had given Notice-a Motion which brought a direct charge against. Her Majesty's Government, which the Government were perfectly prepared to Mr. Justin M'Carthy have met. To the insinuations of the The MR. DALY said, that his hon. Colleague had asked what were the words or acts on which the hon. Member for Tipperary had been arrested; and they believed that all the evidence which the Government possessed, and on which the arrest was made, could be given by the Government officials; therefore, the Chief Secretary need not shelter himself behind the extraordinary powers given to the Government by the Coercion Act, and refuse to answer the questions which had been put. The Government had 30,000 soldiers and 12,000 policemen in Ireland; and, therefore, they could have no fear of any result arising from the reasons which they might give. The Government should have courage, and answer all the questions categorically. He believed that this Liberal Government would be accused of doing a mean and dastardly act, and then of sheltering themselves from the consequences of that act in a cowardly way. Practically, Her Majesty's Government had, of their own motion, disfranchised one of the Irish constituencies. His hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary could have spoken with authority in regard to the evictions in Ireland, and which were going forward in the most monstrous manner, as on all these things he had a more intimate knowledge than any other man. The position of the Government, in not answering the questions put, was unsound and untenable. MR. J. COWEN said, he was astonished that the Government had not given a more satisfactory answer to the If question that had been addressed to man. To see a starving family crouchthem. They would have reasons for ing in the cold on a bleak hillside was a arresting Mr. Dillon, and surely they spectacle that no one could behold withmight state them. In the absence of out emotion. Mr. Dillon had witnessed this information, all the House could do these scenes, and he had spoken in was to speculate on the cause of the strong, but not too strong, reprobation arrest. No one, he supposed, would of them. He might probably have overaccuse Mr. Dillon of having been en- stepped the thin line that separated gaged in houghing cattle, shooting legality from illegality. But the surlandlords, or burning property. There roundings being recollected, no generous was no overt act that he had committed. man would judge him harshly. EspeThe only ground for his arrest, therefore, cially ought this to be the case with must be his speeches. He had not seen the present Government. There were any report of those speeches, except Members of the Administration who such as had appeared in the English had lived amongst Leagues, and had newspapers, and these reports were not risen to power through agitation. to be trusted. They were usually at- everything they had said and everytempered to the appetites of English thing they had done during periods of readers. Many of the statements that excitement had been as strictly watched appeared in the English papers respect- and as strictly judged as Mr. Dillon's ing Ireland were absolutely false-others speeches and doings had been, some of were grossly exaggerated. Even when them would certainly not have escaped the statements were themselves correct, a prosecution if they had escaped imthe explanation necessary to their under-prisonment. Mr. Dillon knew that the standing was withheld. To form an estimate of what had been said by any man in Ireland from what appeared in the English newspapers was to do that man an injustice. Before the House passed a condemnation of his Friend he begged it to pause. He asked it to consider the circumstances-the strongly extenuating circumstances-under which Mr. Dillon had spoken. There had been great agricultural depression over the whole Kingdom. This depression had been most severely felt in Ireland. In some places it had deepened into distress -in others into want and starvation. Mr. Dillon, during several months, had employed himself in going from one part of the country to another, and had been brought face to face with the realities of the situation. The Government had introduced a Bill designed to improve the social condition of the Irish people. The measure might be wise or unwise; but that was its purpose. The landlords, or at least a large section of them, feared that the operation of the Bill would be injurious to their interests, and, with a view of getting quit of the responsibility that it entailed upon them, they were scattering notices of ejectment broadcast. These ejectments had, in many instances, matured into evictions. He did not know whether hon. Gentlemen had witnessed an eviction. The harrowing scenes that accompanied them could not be viewed unmoved by any YOL. CCLXI. [THIRD SERIES.] mass of the English people were ignorant of the condition of Ireland, that a large number were not only ignorant but indifferent, and that some even were hostile. It was a cynical but too common observation that this country would be benefited if Ireland was cut adrift from us, or if she was sunk beneath the Atlantic waves long enough to procure the destruction of her population. This hard view of Ireland and her people was not so prevalent now as it was in former years; yet still it existed. Mr. Dillon also knew that nothing ever was obtained in the way of political or social consideration from this country until there had been an agitation amounting almost to an insurrection. We conceded nothing to Ireland from a sense of justice-only from force. We yielded to fear what we refused to reason. ["No, no!"] Some hon. Members denied that statement. He appealed to history in confirmation of what he had said. Since the Union there had been three serious attempts made at ameliorative legislation in Ireland. And how had those attempts been initiated? One of the pledges given by the English Government in 1800 was that if the Irish Parliament would consent to the Union the penal laws against the Catholics should be at once repealed. How was that pledge fulfilled? Thirty years were allowed to elapse before any serious attempt was made to comply with the H engagement, and then it was rot com- | would never have been attempted if it plied with because of its righteousness had not been for the action of the Land or its justice. The Prime Minister League. If there had been no Land of the day had the audacity to declare League there would have been no Land that Catholic Emancipation was yielded Bill. The movement directed by the because there were only two alternatives. League had created a public opinion The one was emancipation and the other such as had compelled the Government Civil War. Emancipation was therfore, to take action. The League really had in his judgment, only a less evil than forced the Government measure. The Civil War, and hence it was conceded. Ministry was the acting power, but the Sir Robert Peel endeavoured to deal with organization which Mr. Dillon controlled the three great Irish grievances-Land, was the motive power. It was most Education, and the Church. But he did unfair to send to prison the men who not deal with these questions from any had aroused the public opinion which intrinsic sense of the injustices under rendered the measures of the Ministry which the people were labouring. Eng- possible. What were the simple facts land was at the time in trouble with of the case? Mr. Dillon had collected foreign States. There was a dispute a larger amount of information respect with America about Oregon, and a dis- ing the condition of Irish peasants than pute with France about Otaheite. The was possessed by any other man in the Government were afraid if they went to House. There was no Member there, war with either or both of these Powers not even the Irish Secretary, who had that French or American troops might anything like the amount of information be landed in Ireland. The Irish, being on the subject that he had. He was on discontented, might receive them as de- his way to Parliament to submit this liverers. It was not because the people information to it. An announcement were suffering from an injustice, but to that effect had been made in all the because it was desirable to send them papers. It was well known to his what Sir Robert Peel described as a Friends that he intended to be in the message of peace, that the three mea- House last Thursday and to take part sures he had indicated were proposed. in the discussion. The Government ar It was fear of the Irish aiding the rested him on his way there, and landed French or the Americans in the threat- him in Kilmainham. And what would ened wars that got for them the Queen's be the consequence of that step? If he Colleges, an increased grant for May- had been in Parliament his power would nooth, and an attempted amendment of have been circumscribed; but now that the laws respecting land. The third he was in prison his counsel would occasion when Parliament essayed to solve be more potent than ever. The Irish the Irish difficulty was during the last peasants trusted him and respected him, Liberal Government. The circumstances and they would trust him and respect were still fresh in their recollection. him all the more since he suffered for They all knew how many times the them. Mr. Dillon might be a rebel at question of Land Reform had been sub- Westminster; but he had long been mitted to the House by Mr. Sharman a patriot in Tipperary, and now he Crawford and others, and how often would be a martyr. Ministers used Resolutions respecting the Irish Church no end of smooth words about the had been rejected. The House refused condition of Ireland; but they did not to legislate on these points until the back up these words by their actions. Fenians broke open a prison van in the The arrest of Mr. Dillon was like streets of Manchester, released two of sticking a blister on a raw wound. their leaders, and blew down the wall The English people were singularly unof Clerkenwall Gaol, in the expectation fortunate in their government of subject of setting free a third. It was a fear races. For some reason or other-even of the Fenian insurrection that caused when they had the best intentions-they the Church and Land Questions in failed to win the good feeling or the 1868-9 to pass from the domain of affections of those they ruled. He could speculation to that of practical politics. not explain it. He could only lament Mr. Dillon knew all this. Every Irish- it. But such was unquestionably the man knew it, and they also know that fact. They had ruled Ireland for 700 the legislation of the present Session years, and the people were as disconMr. J. Cowen said. He would not equivocate, he would not excuse; he would be "as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice." If they laboured under the delusion that by degrading such men they would facilitate their rule in Ireland, they were in error. He knew their theory was that Ireland ought to be taught to fear before she was taught to love. The falsity of that theory had been shown by experience. By Coercion Bills and Arms Bills they could not win the confidence of a suffering, struggling, and sensitive race. They could not kill ideas by chains and prisons. Ideas were as indestructible as either earth or heaven, and the attempts to annihilate them by pains and penalties would fail now as they had failed in all past times. It was a source of deep regret to every man concerned in the future of Ireland to see the prospects of the legislation the Government were prosecuting blasted by the harsh, unwise, and illiberal treatment that they were now manifesting towards Mr. Dillon, Mr. Davitt, and their countrymen. tented and dissatisfied as they were cen- | He was in earnest in what he did and turies ago. France ruled Alsace some 200 years, and in that time the Alsatians became even more French than the Gascons. There must be something either in the manner or the spirit of the English administration that engendered in the Irish people so much distrust. The minds of some statesmen were said to be like the pupils of the human eye-they contracted themselves the more the greater the light that was shed in upon them. With all the experience of the past, and with good intentions, the present Government were treading in the footsteps--the painful and disastrous footsteps-of past Administrations. Just let them look for a moment at what they had done during these troubled times. There never was an agitation that did not have at its head one or two men who typified the hopes and aspirations of the people. These men in the present agitation in Ireland were Mr. Davitt and Mr. Dillon. They embodied, to a larger extent than any other two, the spirit and wishes of the Irish race. And how had the Government treated them? They had sent one to penal servitude and the other to gaol. The late Government, when they believed that Mr. Davitt was guilty of some offence against the law, attempted to put him upon his trial. This was a fair and honourable way of treating him. If he had broken the law, it was right that he should be made to feel the consequences. But the present Government did not follow a like course. They went back upon a conviction that in equity and morals, if not in law, had been more than complied with. He did not speak of the wisdom, of the cruelty, of the justice of Mr. Davitt's re-imprisonment. But he was there to declare that he did not know in his experience--and he did not believe any man in that House knew -of a meaner thing having been done by any Government than the sending back to slavery of this man. If the Government imagined that that was the way to pacify the Irish people they were grossly mistaken. The treatment of Mr. Davitt would neither be forgotten nor forgiven by those who shared his opinions and admired his character. And Mr. Dillon. He was not a common man. He was not angling for Office-he was not canvassing for a job. He knew the wants of his countrymen. He had seen and sympathized with their sufferings. MR. MACIVER said, he agreed most cordially with much that had fallen from the hon. Member who had just spoken. It was not necessary to approve of what Mr. Dillon had done to condemn what had been done by the Government. What the hon. Member for Tipperary had done had been compared fairly in the light of what the Prime Minister himself said when he was in Opposition. But the Government allowed this agitation in Ireland to go on to an extent they ought not to have done. They might long ago have stopped this agitation, which had led to the formation of this Land League; but they did not wish to do it. The Prime Minister said that the explosion at Clerkenwell Prison and the murder of a policeman at Manchester were necessary to bring the Irish Church Question within the range of practical politics. He Mr. Mac Iver) spoke directly to the right hon. Gentleman, the apostle of peace, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who represented Birmingham, which provided arms and ammunition for all the world. His inconsistency on this and every question was well known to a'l in that House; but he did say that the right hon. Gentleman in his Irish views was perhaps more inconsistent than on any other question, |