the other gases emitted by cement works, SOUTH AFRICA – THE TRANSVAAL

and what minimum emission of each of THE BRITISH GARRISONS.

those gases the Government is prepared LORD EUSTACE CECIL asked the to allow, having regard to the fact that First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is impossible wholly to prevent these under the terms of the armistice con- emissions ? cluded in March last there exists any MR. DODSON: I am not prepared power

of supplying the garrisons in the to exempt cement works from the Bill; Transvaal with material of war; and, if for although no practical means may at not, what steps it is proposed to take to present exist for consuming carbonic remedy so serious an omission in view of acid gas, I have no doubt that, in many the critical state of pending negotia- instances, arrangements are capable of tions, and the probability of a native being made for regulating its emission uprising?

so as to render it much less objectionMR. GLADSTONE: In answer to the able than at present. As the Bill simply Question of the noble Lord, I have to requires the adoption of practicable and say that Sir Evelyn Wood entered into available precautions it is impossible to an engagement not to send ammunition suppose that it will have the effect of into the Transvaal; but the information closing cement works, although I have in his possession, and transmitted to us, no doubt it will lead to a considerable is that the garrisons in the Transvaal abatement of the present nuisance-a are amply supplied with ammunition. nuisance which, in the words of the

Royal Commission, is substantial, and PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE which may be mitigated, if not avoided HOUSE.

altogether. I cannot undertake to exMr. GLADSTONE: As to the course plain in detail in the Bill what are the of Business to-night, the Government

other gases emitted by cement works, will offer no opposition to the adjourn- and what is the minimum emission the ment of the debate on the Land Law Government is prepared to allow, as this (Ireland) Bill at such an hour as the would be to place these works on a difHouse may think fit; but, at the same

ferent footing from many others named time, I should desire to call the attention in the Bill, and, as in the case of the of the House to the fact that the debate alkali works, a test could only be preon the Bill has been unusually pro: careful inspection.

scribed after the experience acquired by longed. (“No!”] Well, it has gono

] on an unusual length of time. I do not

PARLIAMENTARY OATHS (MR. BRAD. say it is without precedent; but if it is further adjourned Monday next will be

LAUGH). the seventh night of its extension, and I

Mr. NEWDEGATE asked the First wish to express a hope that the debate Lord of the Treasury, When it is the will, at any rate, close on Monday.

intention of Her Majesty's Ministers to

invite the IIouse to proceed with the ALKALI, &c. WORKS REGULATION BILL Oaths ? Ho explained that he put the

Adjourned Debate on the Parliamentary -CEMENT WORKS.

Question because he found that the adMR. W. FOWLER asked the Presi- journed debate stood on the Order Book dent of the Local Government Board, the last Order for Tuesday next. Whether, having regard to the fact that Mr. GLADSTONE : I think the no means of a practicable character exist Question of the hon. Member is perfectly for consuming carbonic acid gas, he is justified by the facts; but, at the same · prepared to insert words into Clause 8 time, I hope he will agree with me that, of the Alkali, &c. Works Regulation as the subject is likely to be raised toBill, exempting cement works from the morrow by the Motion of my hon, operation of the Bill, so far as relates to Friend the Member for Carlisle, I should the emission of this gas; and, whether postpone my answer until that Motion he is aware that the passing of the Bill has been disposed of. in its present form will have the effect of Sir STAFFORI) NORTHCOTE: I closing cement works; and, if he is pro- rise to put two Questions to you, Sir. I pared, before the Bill is proceeded with, wish to ask you whether it is competent to explain in detail in the Bill what are for a Member of this House to move

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that a Resolution, formally submitted to ring from your answer to my second
the judgment of the House, put from the Question that you regard the Motion as a
Chair, adopted by a majority of the question of Privilege, and not as a ques.
Members present and voting, and re- tion of Order ?
corded on the Journals of the House re- MR. SPEAKER: I think it is a ques-
peatedly acted upon by the House, and tion of Privilege, and not a question of
still unrescinded, is an illegal Motion ? Order.
And, secondly, Sir, I wish to ask you LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
whether, if such a Motion is in Order, I do not think hon. Members have at
it can be regarded as a Motion entitled all gathered whether the terms of the
to precedence, bearing in mind that more Motion are in Order, because I would
than a fortnight has elapsed since the submit, before you give a final decision
passing of the Resolution referred to; on the subject, when several hon. Mem-
and, if so, upon what ground precedence bers were suspended, one after the other

, would be given to it ?

before the Easter Recess, it was proposed MR. LABOUCHERE: I wish further by some other hon. Members to call in to ask you, Sir, whether it is not com- question the action of the House as petent for any hon. Member, on any illegal and arbitrary; and you ruled day he may think fit, to raise a question that any calling in question the action of Privilege as to the arbitrary and of the House would be a breach of illegal exclusion of an hon. Member Order, which you would be obliged to duly returned by a constituency to this meet with very severe penalties. ThereHouse before he has taken the necessary fore, I would like to ask you to decide steps to bring himself within the full clearly whether the hon. Baronet's Mojurisdiction of the House ?

tion is in Order; and, if so, how it differs MR. SPEAKER: Exception has been from the Motion which the Irish Memtaken by the right hon. Gentleman the bers were anxious to make with respect Member for North Devon to the word to the suspension of a large number of "illegal,” used in the proposed Resolu- that body, and which Motion was protion of the hon. Baronet the Member for nounced to be a gross breach of Order? Carlisle. I must admit that there is MR.SPEAKER: I have already stated some force in that objection. I have that the expression “illegal" in the understood the expression “illegal” to Resolution of the hon. Baronet is open dicating the rescinding of the Resolution hon. Baronet that that expression should of the 26th April, 1881 ; but I am bound be withdrawn; and also upon this ground, to say that I think the hon. Baronet that it bears the construction--it may would have been better advised if he bear it, although I have not put that had proposed, according to the usual construction upon it myself-that an exParliamentary practice, to move that pression of that kind is scarcely respectthe Resolution of the House be rescinded. ful to the House, and reflects upon & In regard to the other point raised by Resolution which this House has already the right hon. Gentleman, I have to say passed. that if the hon. Baronet had thought fit MR. WARTON: I wish to ask, Sir, yesterday to make a Motion on the whether, in the event of the hon. Baronet letter of Mr. Bradlaugh having been refusing to withdraw the word"

illegal," read, and if that Motion had been in you would refuse to allow the Motion to regular form, he would have been en be put ? titled to proceed with that Motion as a MR. SPEAKER: I am not prepared question of Privilege; and I cannot to answer that Question until I see the think that he has forfeited his claim to Resolution in its revised form. have that question considered as a mat- SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: May ter of Privilege by reason of

his having, I ask whether, to-morrow, it will be for the convenience of the House, post- competent for any hon. Member, on the poned it until a future day, I think the Motion of the hon. Baronet, to move answer I have given already sufficiently that it is not a question of Privilege ? answers the Question of the hon. Mem.

MR. DILLWYN: I would further ask ber for Northampton.

whether it will not

competent for any SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I hon. Member to move that it is a queswish, Sir, to ask if I am right in infer- tion of Privilege with respect to the il

Sir Stafford Northcote


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legal exclusion of a Member from this the permanent pacification of that country, House ?

he would propose that the discussion of MR. SPEAKER: I must wait to see that Bill should be carried on de die in what Motion may be made before I give diem until such time as it should be an opinion upon any Motion which may passed ? be taken in this matter. I am not pre- MR. MACARTNEY desired to know, pared to say now, upon a hypothetical before the right hon. Gentleman answered question, what course it would be right the Question which had just been put, to take.

whether, if those who wished to address Sir I. DRUMMOND WOLFF: I the House should not have had an opshould like to ask whether, when the portunity of doing so before the end of hon. Member for Carlisle brings forward Monday's debate, the right hon. Gentlehis Motion to-morrow, before he rises man would use his large majority to or after he submits his Motion, it will bring the debate to a conclusion that be competent for any Member to move evening ? as a question of Order, or as an Amend- MR. PARNELL wished to know, whement to that Motion, that it is not a ther it would be necessary to obtain question of Privilege?

urgency in order to carry on the debate MR. NEWDEGATE: May I further de die in diem. Two-thirds of the House, ask you, Sir, whether, if the subject of or a majority of two to one, were rethe Notice given by the hon. Baronet quired to obtain urgency:

Could not the Member for Carlisle is brought for the course which had been followed ward in this House as a question of Pri- earlier that Session on the Coercion vilege, it will not, and ought not, to Bills be followed, and the days of pritake precedence of all other Business? vate Members be given up to the discus

MR.SPEAKER: I have already stated sion till the Bill was passed ? that I consider that the Motion of the MR. GLADSTONE: With regard to hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle, the closing of the debate on Monday, it when put in the proper form, would be would be extremely disagreeable to my brought forward certainly as a question taste and desire that any Gentleman of Privilege; and if an Amendment should be precluded from addressing the were moved to the effect that it was not House in the present stage of the Bill; a question of Privilege, that would be, but it seems to me that we work under in effect, to challenge the ruling of the very severe conditions as to time, and Chair.

under very severe conditions indeed as MR. GORST: I beg to give Notice to public interests of a character affectthat, when the hon. Baronet makes the ing the whole of the people of Ireland; Motion with which the House is not yet and, although I may be very sorry to acquainted, if that Motion should raise press anything of a restrictive nature substantially the same question as that against Members, yet I even hope that on which the House has already ex- some hon. Gentlemen will, if possible, pressed its judgment, I shall ask you, submit to a sacrifice rather than allow Dir. Speaker, whether it is competent us to go on, in the face of the very great for an hon. Member to bring forward, necessity for this Bill, for the sako of all in the same Session, the same question parties in Ireland, with a debate extendon which it has already expressed an ing over many weeks on a stage of the opinion?

Bill in which, after all, we can make no

progress towards a final adjustment of LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL- its terms. Ilon. Members will, I trust, I'RGENCY.

continue the debate longer than usual MR. THOROLD ROGERS asked the to-night; but I am afraid I cannot recede First Lord of the Treasury a Question of from what I have presumed to say with which he had given him private Notice, regard to the closing of the debate on Whether, considering that the Govern- Monday. As to the Question put to me, ment demanded and obtained Urgency I am not sure that I follow with perfect for the passage of two Bills which they clearness the Question of the hon. Memdeclared to be necessary for the main ber for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell); tenance of order in Ireland, and that it but I do not know that it is very imwas equally necessary that the Land portant at the present moment, because Law (Ireland) Bill should be passed for I may say, in answer to him and in


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answer to the hon. Member behind me quiry, and as yet not one of those hon.
(Mr. Thorold Rogers), it would be more Members had had an opportunity of
convenient to wait until the House has speaking. The Question he rose to put
disposed of the second reading before was, Whether it would not be possible
considering any course which it may be for the Speaker and the Representatives
the duty of the Government to propose of the different Parties in the House to
to expedite the progress of the Bill. make an informal ballot of the names of
All I can say is that there is no recession the hon. Members who wished to ad-
from the pledge I have given that no dress the House? If such an arrange- .
Government Business will be allowed to ment could be come to, it would greatly
interfere with it, except Business of abso- contribute to the convenience of Mem-
lute necessity. A matter of absolute ne bers; and he wished to know if it would
cessity would be the disposal of the Tax- be in accordance with the Rules of the
ing Bill in Committee, but I have no House ?
reason to believe that that will occupy MR. SPEAKER: I am always most
any great length of time. That is the anxious to promote the convenience of
only exception. I will be able to answer Members of this House; but the hon.
the questions after the Bill has been Member is imposing a task upon me
read a second time and the Bill has which is beyond my powers.
arrived at the stage of Committee.
COLONEL MAKINS asked whether,

in view of what the right hon. Gentle-
man had just said, it was likely that the
House would rise for Whitsuntide; and, LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.-[Bill 135.)
if so, when it would rise, and for what (Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Forster, Mr. Bright, Mr.
length of time?
MR. GLADSTONE thought it was

Attorney General for Ireland, Mr. Solicitor rather soon to ask that Question. He

General for Ireland.)
would consider the matter.

MR, MACFARLANE askedif it would

not facilitate the division on the second

Order read, for resuming Adjourned reading of the Bill on Monday if a Sitting Debate on Amendment proposed to took place on Saturday ? MR. ONSLOW asked the Prime Mi- be now read a second time.”

Question [25th April), “That the Bill nister whether, if the Motion of the hon. Member for Carlisle were altered


And which Amendment was, the word “illegal,” the Motion, as To leave out from the word “That" to the amended, would receive the support of end of the Question, in order to add the words Her Majesty's Government?

“this House, while willing to consider any just MR. GLADSTONE said, he should

measure, founded upon sound principles, that

will benefit tenants of land in Ireland, is of follow the wise example set by the Chair, opinion that the leading provisions of the Land and wait until the words of the Motion Law (Ireland) Bill are in the main economi, were before him before giving a reply.

cally unsound, unjust, and impolitic,"—(Lord

With regard to a Saturday Sitting, he

instead thereof.
looked upon the adoption of such a
course as a very strong measure, and he Question again proposed, “That the
would rather postpone raising that ques. words proposed to be left out stand part
tion for the present. He did not think of the Question."
it was a satisfactory method to follow, as

Debate resumed.
it was very difficult to secure the at-
tendance of Members.

MR. SRAW said, that he should make MR. J. COWEN said, that, as far his remarks as brief as possible, for the as he could learn, there were certainly Bill had now been debated for seven 40 Members anxious to address the nights; and, so far as he could judge, House on the Bill. There had been two very little impression had been made Agricultural Commissions sitting on this upon its principle. Many of the speeches Irish question, and several of the Mem- that had been made were directed rather bers of those Commissions were Mem- to the details of the Bill

, and might bers of this House. They had visited have been more appropriately made in Ireland, and engaged in an elaborate in- Committee. When the Bill was intro

Mr. Gladstone

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duced, he took the liberty of expressing | Ireland on this question, and other a general approval of it, and as soon eminent men concurred. Indeed, the as he possibly could he most care- former expressed his opinion, before the fully read it; in fact, he read it twice, Commission, that there was use and he was almost ashamed to tell the in laying down rules for the regulaHouse that he understood it—at least, tion of rent between landlord and tenhe thought he did. But when he heard ant; and the only way in which it the speech of his right hon. and learned could be properly done was by getFriend the Member for Dublin Univer- ting competent valuators, and letting sity (Mr. Gibson), he must say that his them go to the holdings and exercise mind was quite upset on the question. their own common sense on the subject. However, he got right again in about The clause dealing with fair rents was one five minutes, and when he came to look which he thought was easily enough at the Bill again he did not feel at all understood. It was explained very fully disturbed. To his mind that Bill, dealing by his right hon. and learned Friend the with a great and most complicated subject, Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Law). affecting interests so varied and so impor- The valuator should go to the holding tant, was a great Bill, and he believed as and take the holding as it stood. Of easily understood as any Bill that had course, if they adopted an economic mode ever been introduced on a great subject. of fixing rent, they must consider several He should occupy the House as briefly as circumstances; they must consider the possible in suggesting a few points in average of the prices, say, for seven which he thought the Bill might be im- years, of the crops principally grown on proved. Of course, in proposing Amend- the holding; they must consider the ments, he recognized the necessity of position and circumstances of the holdkeeping strictly to the principle of the ing; and they must consider the cost of Bill, for it would be most unreasonable production. But there was another to seek to alter its entire structure or element which it was absolutely nechange its principle. Therefore, any cessary to consider in fixing a fair rent, suggestion he might make to amend or and that was the natural quality of the improve the Bill would, he believed, be soil. He maintained that it would abentirely within its principle, and would solutely be impossible for a valuator tend to the simplification and better going to 99 holdings out of 100 to see working of the measure. The first part what was the natural quality of the soil. of the Bill contained the rules for regu. It would, therefore, be very hard for lating the relationship between the land- any valuator to fix the rent by the ecolord and tenant; and as the most im- nomic method, or to arrive at a fair rent portant question in that part of tho Bill by any other mode than that suggested. was the question of rent, he should first He must have regard to the holding, of all refer to that. His right hon. and and give expression to the interest that learned Friend (Mr. Gibson) was very the tenant had in Ulster and in other much puzzled indeed, as he said, as to parts of Ireland under the Act of 1870. this part; but he (Mr. Shaw) happened Ile would ask the right hon. and learned one evening to go to Belfast, and he Gentleman the Member for the University met there a conference of hard-headed of Dublin, would he suggest that a valuaNortherners, and underwent two hours' tor going on his land was not to regard cross-examination on the clauses of the the interest of the tenant? Was he not Bill; and he thought he was able to bound, as the very first thing, and as a understand those clauses dealing with a matter of duty, to find out what was fair rent. Ho thought also that the the interest the tenant had in his holdtenant farmers of the North understood ing? Of course, he was not to calcuthem too, though he did not say they late that in such a way as to absorb tho entirely approved of them. He did not interest of the landlord, or the rent of forget that it was one of the most intricate the landlord. No valuator that ever and difficult parts of the subject; and, in went, or was ever likely to go on land in his mind, it would be quite impossible to Ireland, would adopt such a course. In arrive at any scientitic way of adjusting fact, if such a courseas that were adopted, rent between landlord and tenant in Ire in many parts of Ireland it would mako land. In that opinion Judge Longfield, the rent nothing at all. Any Judge that one of the most experienced men in went on a holding, and commenced to VOL. CCLXI. (THIRD SERIES.)


[Sixth Night. )

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