knowing practically as little of Agriculture or, on the other hand, of Commerce, as a pig did of watchmaking. But that was one of the questions which his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister promised to consider by accepting the form of Motion proposed, and he could not help thinking his mode of putting it into practice would be satisfactory to the House. With respect to the other matters concerning which complaint was made, the chief thing wanted was, again, time and opportunity, as the Government were anxious to legislate on many of the subjects which had been touched upon. After the declaration of the Prime Minister, he thought the House might trust the Government to put in practice the principles they were willing to accept. these statistics, and send them to the | from the President of the Board of Trade country at an earlier period than was now done; but the value of statistics often depended on a sufficient period being taken, and if they were published weekly or monthly, no practical conclusion could be drawn from them. But he must remind the House that no * Government could do for individuals what they could do better for themselves. He believed the statistics published by the Government were chiefly valuable for the statesman and the political economist. They were not of primary utility to persons engaged in trade, who could better obtain what they wanted for themselves. The experience of the United States had been referred to; and while the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes) was mistaken in supposing that there was a Ministry of Agriculture in the United States, undoubtedly there was a Statistical Bureau, which published a great many statistics; but as to the advantage of them he (Mr. Chamberlain) believed that there was considerable difference of opinion even in the United States themselves. The experiment in England was not a success. At the head of the Office had been Sir John Sinclair, and its Secretary was Arthur Young. Yet it was unsatisfactory, Begun in 1793, it was finally abolished in 1821, and no one said a single word in its praise. Another question was, whether the Department of Agriculture and Commerce could advantageously be combined under one head? He looked forward with the greatest anxiety to the possibility of such an undertaking; and, in connection with it, he would tell the House what had happened to himself. He had only been in Office a very few days when he received a copy of a Return issued by the Department to farmers and others, asking a great number of questions of interest. The Return came back to him from a farmer not filled up. The writer declined absolutely to furnish any information either to the Board of Trade or to anyone connected with it, so long "as they knew as little of practical agriculture as a pig did of watchmaking." He (Mr. Chamberlain) felt the refusal was not altogether without cause; and he could not help fearing, if these two great Departments were permanently combined and placed under one head, difficulties would arise either MR. STORER said, that agriculture was again beginning to assert itself, because trade was declining, and this question was of the greatest possible interest. If they had had a Minister to look after their interest, there would not have been so much bad legislation as there had been of late years. At the same time, he was ready to admit that the manner in which the Vice President of the Council had managed agricultural matters relating to cattle disease was most creditable, and had gained for the right hon. Gentleman the general respect of the agricultural interest. He did not think it was fair to find fault with the sensible speech of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Mac Iver) on the ground of its Protectionist tendencies, when Birmingham itself, represented by two Members of the Cabinet, had been asking for countervailing duties in opposition to the bounties. He (Mr. Storer) would inform the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade that a large number of his constituents met a few nights since at Birmingham and passed a resolution in the spirit of the speech of the hon. Member for Birkenhead. It had been said that the agricultural interest was not sufficiently grateful for the abolition of the Malt Tax as they ought to be considering their former agitation on that question. But, though he recognized the good the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done, he could not but remember that the result had only substituted one monopoly for another, for the monopoly now lay with the brewer. The Education Act, too, had also | of the right hon. Gentleman the Presidone the farmer much injury, and in- dent of the Board of Trade; but he flicted on him what amounted to an rose for the purpose of making a suggesIncome Tax of 18. or 28. in the pound. tion. The Prime Minister had stated that one of the great difficulties in connection with the re-organization of Government Departments was the necessary superannuation of officers. He (Mr. MR. GLADSTONE: Will the hou. Member communicate with the President of the Board of Trade? MR. ROUND said, he would take an opportunity of doing so, and, in the meanwhile, would suggest that the appointment should not be filled up until the new arrangements were made which it was stated were now in contemplation. As representing an important agricultural constituency, he felt much interest in the question, and desired also to thank the Prime Minister for consenting to the Motion of the hon. Member for South Devon. His constituency was one that had suffered much from the recent depression in agriculture, and was still suffering. As its Representative, he could not but watch with the greatest interest every notice taken by this House of questions connected with the agricultural interests; and he thanked the Government for their promise in connection with the Motion for a new Ministry of Commerce and Agriculture. MR. RATHBONE said, he could have wished that the Resolution of the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Massey Lopes) had been more general in its terms. He (Mr. Rathbone) felt bound to take a par-Round) understood that, at the present ticular interest in this subject in conse- time, the head of the Statistical Dequence of the constant complaints which, partment of the Board of Trade had as formerly representing a large com- resigned, and the Office was vacant. mercial constituency, he had received as to the failure of the Administration Departments to do their work satisfactorily. There could be no more important Departments than the Local Government Board and the Board of Trade, and the Prime Minister had very often avoided in practice many of the evils of the system by placing able men at the head of every Department; but even in these cases the evil had not altogether been avoided. He thought the root of the evil lay in the present relative dignity and emolument of the different Offices of State. The heads of the Departments he had referred to were frequently not in the Cabinet; the Offices themselves were not considered as of equal dignity, and had not the same emoluments as great Departments. Therefore, when the time for promotion came, the merits of the individual did not enter into consideration. Besides, these very important Departments were often pushed aside from the fact that their Representatives were not in the Cabinet. He thought MAJOR NOLAN said, that that was that the President of the Board of Trade, one of the questions on which more than the President of the Local Government one Ministry had been in a state of Board, and the Chief Secretary for Ire- chaos. On a previous occasion, in the land should all have places in the Cabi- course of his (Major Nolan's) inquiries net, and that those Offices should no on the subject of seed potatoes, he had longer be considered as mere ante- been referred from one Department to chambers to the more important Offices. another, from the Board of Trade to the A like dignity should also attach to the Vice President of the Council, till at last Minister of Education. Under the late it had been decided, after a consultation, Government, the right hon. Gentleman that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief the Member for East Gloucestershire (Sir Secretary for Ireland had more to do Michael Hicks-Beach) had thoroughly with potatoes than anyone else. mastered the condition of Ireland and its another time, he had been interested system of local government. But he suc- in a matter that was, perhaps, as much ceeded to a position in which he had every- commercial as agricultural, and which thing to learn-the Colonies-and he was was of some importance to the people of succeeded by a Chief Secretary by no certain districts of Ireland-namely, the means his own equal. He (Mr. Rathbone) manufacture of kelp; but, on that subhoped the whole question would be con-ject, his inquiries had received no satissidered in a comprehensive spirit. MR. ROUND said, he did not intend to continue the debate after the appeal Mr. Storer At factory answer. And, in like manner, a difficulty often occurred in Ireland as to the very serious question of the drainage of land. There was no one to whom application could be made, and the authorities were conspicuous by their absence. That a Department of Agriculture might greatly benefit small and unenlightened farmers by circulating information among them had been abundantly proved. That was a field in which the Department might prosecute the work that the agricultural societies neglected, or were unable to perform, especially among the small farmers in Ireland. He thought that the Government might fairly be asked to give assistance of this kind, reserving to themselves the question whether the Office of Irish Agriculture should be in London or in Dublin. no SIR HARRY VERNEY said, that he had heard the nostrums of hon. Members from all parts of the House for the relief of agriculturists, who, without doubt, had been very grievous sufferers from the late three or four unfavourable seasons, and for the improvement of Agriculture; and he would mention his, which had this peculiarity-an unusual one in that House-that every hon. Member, on whatever side or part of the House he sat, would agree with him in the opinion that it was the most important of any. It was this-that they, landowners and land occupiers, should learn their business. There was business or profession in that country with regard to which those who were the most interested were so ignorant. He confessed, and he did so with regret, that until he became a landowner he knew, and he cared, nothing about land. He hardly knew one crop from another, and he felt no desire to know; he had but one ambition, to rise in his profession and get the command of a regiment. He owned this with regret and some shame, because it was his duty to make himself acquainted with the business and calling, a good knowledge of which would enable him to benefit himself and all who lived on his estate. He did not hesitate to say that if, half a century since, he had possessed as good a knowledge of the management of land, and acquaintance with the qualities and treatment of stock, as his land agent or bailiff, he would have been, perhaps, 20 per cent richer during the whole of that time; he would never have had a bad farmer on his land; more work, and better paid work would have been provided for his labourers, and the country would have been benefited by his land producing more food for man and beast. Every class in the country would be materially benefited by landowners being better instructed in land, excepting one-namely, land agents. Their occupation would be diminished by landowners knowing their own business, instead of leaving it to them. In Germany there were few land agents; owners managed their own land. If their present difficulties induced landowners to learn more about land it would prove beneficial to the whole community. Question put, and negatived. Main Question, as amended, put. Resolved, That it is desirable that the functions of the Executive Government which should, as far as possible, be administered by a especially relate to Agriculture and Commerce distinct department, and be presided over by a responsible Minister of the Crown. Committee upon Monday next. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." TRADE COMBINATIONS (FOOD, &c.). OBSERVATIONS. MR. WARTON, who had given Notice on going into Committee of Supply to call attention to Trade Combinations having for their object the undue diminution of the price for food payable to the producer, and the increase payable by the consumer, now rose for that purpose, and said, that for a long time it had been his intention to direct the attention of the House to this subject. It was a matter which seemed to him to be of considerable importance to a very large portion of the people of the country. It was hardly necessary to state that agriculture had been in a very depressed state. What he was content to observe was that at present they could not grow wheat at a profit. It was of the utmost importance that, as agriculturists could not grow wheat, and were discouraged from growing barley, they should turn their attention to some things which might be of great benefit. There were many products of the soil which might be grown to advantage, only that the way in which those products were dis LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH, in reply, said, that the Amendment having been carried on going into Committee, it was not considered advisable to set up Supply again after 11 o'clock; and in so doing they had acted in accordance with the usual custom. MR. WARTON then resumed his remarks, when MR. SPEAKER said, he must again remind the hon. and learned Member that it would be quite out of Order for him to move, on going into Committee of Ways and Means, an Amendment which he had given Notice of on going into Supply. posed of often turned into a loss what | taken the course they had in so suddenly might be sources of profit. At present closing Supply? we were paying foreigners many millions a-year for eggs, butter, poultry, fruit, and vegetables; and he did not hesitate to say that those millions might go into the pockets of our own farmers and market gardeners, provided what they had to sell could be sold fairly. It was a singular thing that we could get fresh fruit and vegetables from France, Germany, Holland, and Belgium at a cheaper rate than that at which our own producers could send them to market, and that arose partly from the system of railway charges, which he hoped the Committee on the subject would soon correct, and partly from the fact that the markets, and especially those of London, were carried on in a most artificial and unbusinesslike manner. He knew the case of a respectable farmer in Suffolk, finding his agricultural produce fetch him very little, directed his attention to onions. He got Sutton's seed, the best he could procure, paid the greatest attention to the crop, and sent up the produce to London salesmen. But when the account of profit and loss was made up, he was out of pocket by what he paid for the sacks. Another thought he would grow cabbages, filled two waggons with them, which he sent up to market, and got the sum of 6d. for his profit on the transaction. MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD rose to Order, and asked, whether it was competent for an hon. Member, who had given Notice of a Motion on going into Committee of Supply, to move it on going into Committee of Ways and Means? MR. SPEAKER said, that if the hon. Member proposed to move on the present occasion he would be out of Order. MR. HEALY asked, whether it was not competent to raise any question on going into Committee of Ways and Means? MR. SPEAKER said, he could not give an answer on a point of Order not absolutely before the House. The Notice of the hon. Member was for a Motion on going into Committee of Supply; but the Motion now was for going into Committee on Ways and Means. MR. WARTON said, he rose at the proper moment; but he could not prevent the calling out of the Order for Ways and Means. LORD JOHN MANNERS asked the Government to explain why they had Mr. Warton The Mr. WARTON then said, he would content himself by making some general observations on the subject of his Motion without moving it. What he complained of was that, by the arrangements made between the salesmen to whom fruits and vegetables were consigned for sale in the great London markets, the produce found its way into the hands of middlemen, who arranged the prices at which they should be sold to the greengrocers and costermongers, so that the producer did not receive as much as he ought to do for what he had to sell, and the consumers were compelled to pay much more than they ought to do for what it was necessary for them to buy. telegraphs gave means to the salesmen in the London markets to regulate the supply that should be delivered, and, therefore, to have control over the prices that could be commanded. As matter of fact, it was well known that the London markets were supplied very largely with the refuse of the Paris markets; and, as far as our home producers were concerned, that they often received not more than d. each for cauliflowers, for instance, which were sold to the consumers at prices ranging between 4d. and 9d. The same rule applied to poultry and meat, which were brought to this country from France and America, and sold at enormous profit as the product of English poultry yards and grazing and feeding farms. But the evils which existed in connection with vegetables, fruit, and poultry dwindled into insignificance when compared with the case of fish. On the average, an acre of sea produced as much food as three acres of good land, except in those CENTRAL ASIA-AFGHANISTAN (POLITICAL AFFAIRS). QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. parts of the sea to which fish did not go. | had any reason to believe that the RusNow, sometimes there was a great catch sians had been ordered to discontinue of fish, but the public was seldom al- their warlike operations? On all queslowed to benefit by it, the greater part tions of this character in a discussion the being in most cases thrown back into the Government who were in Office had an sea or allowed to rot. This was the enormous advantage, as they could prodoing of the salesmen, who regulated the duce what Papers they chose and hold supply according to their own wishes, back what they chose. If the discussion with the object of keeping up the price was likely to prove inconvenient, they of the article. Fish could be kept in ice had only to say they could not produce for 12 or 15 days; and, therefore, there such and such documents. Well, on the could be no excuse for throwing it away. occasion when his hon. Friend (Mr. E. Providence having given us the blessing Stanhope) brought forward his Motion of great abundance in fish, surely we they were entirely in the dark upon two should avail ourselves of it. His object all-important points, and those two was to have fish properly exposed for points were what were the opinions of sale for a sufficient time to enable the the Indian Government upon the orders public to buy it. In conclusion, he would which they had received from home; observe that the question concerned and, secondly, what were the intentions Irishmen and Englishmen equally; and of the Russian Government with regard he could do no more, after what he had to military operations in Central Asia. said, than to hope that the matters to They had a pretty strong opinion at the which he had drawn attention would time that the opinions of the Indian Goreceive the careful consideration of the vernment and of the Council of the GoGovernment. vernor General were antagonistic to the orders they received from Downing Street, and they were very anxious to obtain from the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for India an accurate record of what were the opinions of the Indian Government, and they pressed the noble Marquess on that subject; but they could not induce him to afford them information. The Papers from India containing the objections to the orders from Downing Street somehow miscarried, and did not arrive in time for the debate. A debate took place, and a division was arrived at. The Government obtained a majority of 120; and that majority, he thought, gave the Prime Minister the greatest satisfaction, for be on more than one occasion alluded to it. They obtained that majority, and the British troops were ordered to withdraw from Southern Afghanistan. The British troops were still in Southern Afghanistan, and why? Because the Indian Government, although they did not dare to refuse to obey the orders that were sent to them from England, yet felt it so necessary in the interests of the Indian Empire that those orders should not be carried out beyond certain points, that they insisted on occupying Pishin. And Pishin was just as much in Southern Afghanistan as Candahar. The result was that at the present moment our troops in Southern Afghanistan were in a most unfortunate position. There were LORD GEORGE HAMILTON, in rising to call attention to the deficiency of official information respecting recent events in Asia, said, he had intended to ask the Government, If they can explain to the House why, when they fixed on the 24th March for the discussion of their policy in Afghanistan, they failed before that date to supply the House with the necessary documents, since published, giving the Russian official exposition of the meaning of their previous assurances, as well as the objections of the Indian Government to the orders sent them from Downing Street? He apprehended, however, that according to the Forms of the House it would not be competent for him to address to the Government that identical Question; and, therefore, he proposed to put a Question of a different character to the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He would ask, Whether he could supplement the statement which he made on March 24 with information about the advances since made in Central Asia by the Russian Armies; whether the statement that General Skobeleff had been recalled was an accurate statement; and, whether his hon. Friend |