agree with many of his conclusions, and hope that some of the changes he advocates may some day be carried into effect; but the Government cannot, in the present state of Public Business, undertake a task that is too considerable to be successfully accomplished in the course of this Session. I should be inclined to vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), which is in some respects preferable to the Previous Question as a way of disposing of a subject. I am glad that my hon. Friend has called attention to this matter, and I hope that the House may have another opportunity of resuming the discussion before the end of the Session; but at this moment I must support the Motion for the adjournment of the debate. MR. DILLWYN said, he had always considered that this question ought to have been brought forward by the Government; but he had thought it his duty to prevent it being lost sight of. Thanking the noble Marquess for the kind reception he had given to his proposals, and hoping that the Government would be able to bring the subject before the House themselves, he would ask leave to withdraw the Motion. MR. DAWSON observed, that the Irish Members could hardly overlook the pointed reference that had been made to them in the course of the discussion. Arguments had been used in favour of the clôture; but the Papers on the subject that were in the possession of the Government had not been laid on the Table, because they showed that outside the British Empire countries in the position of Ireland had separate Assemblies of their own, and the Imperial Assemblies had not under their consideration a vast mass of topics to make confusion worse confounded. Ours was the only Assembly that had to deal with so incongruous a collection of subjects as Ireland and India, Tunis and Telegraphy, Bradlaugh and Basutos. Home Rule was the real remedy for this state of things; and he could only recommend the noble Marquess to consider whether a better way could be found out of the difficulty. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. NATIONAL EXPENDITURE. RESOLUTION. MR. H. H. FOWLER, in rising to move cent increase in the National Expenditure de"That, in the opinion of this House, the remands the earnest and immediate attention of Her Majesty's Government with the view of effecting such reductions as may be consistent with the efficiency of the Public Service," said: On the night that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his Financial Statement I ventured to call the attention of the House to the omission in that Statement of the subject of this Motion; but the right hon. Gentleman then pointed out to me that I had made my remarks at the wrong time, for in Committee of Ways and Means was not supposed to be an occasion for settling the National Expenditure. However, the right hon. Gentleman stated at the same time that this was a question of grave importance and interest, and one which ought to be brought before the country; and, therefore, I have felt no hesitation in taking the earliest opportunity in my power for submitting the matter to the judgment of the House. The last time that a Resolution of this sort was brought forward was something like 20 years ago-I think it was in the year 1862 that my right hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) submitted a similar Resolution for the consideration of the House of Commons. On that occasion the Resolution was met by an Amendment, moved by the right hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Spencer Walpole), and Lord Palmerston very adroitly defeated his opponents by making it a question of confidence or no confidence in the Government. On that occasion the House of Commons did vote an abstract Resolution, which was not so strong as that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, though I think that almost every Member of the present Government voted in favour of the stronger Resolution. They, however, were beaten, and a very mild Resolution was agreed to by the Government, and from that hour to this the question has gone on without general attention being called to it; and the National Expenditure has been steadily increasing. It seems to me that we who sit on these (the Ministerial) Benches occupy a peculiar position in reference to this question. At the last | Debt, which is a charge of £28,920,000; General Election we went to the coun- Civil Fund Charges, which amount to try upon two distinct issues-namely, £1,669,000; the Army, £16,658,000; the Foreign Policy of the late Govern- the Navy, £10,702,000; the Civil Serment and the Expenditure of the late vice, £15,700,000; and a grant to India Government; and if we are consistent of £500,000. In round figures, the in what we said when we addressed Debt costs £29,000,000; the Military our constituents in reference to the ex- and Naval expenditure, £27,750,000; travagant expenditure of the late Ad- and the Civil Service, £17,500,000. ministration, we are bound to say the Those are the great items of expendisame here; and we are bound to carry ture, and the House of Commons has out the pledges which we gave to our the means of exercising power of reconstituents on the hustings, or else, trenchment over only two of them. The if we are not prepared to do that, we first thing which I ask the House to are bound in common justice to tell hon. affirm by this Resolution is that there and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that has been a considerable recent increase we were wrong, that we misled the in the National Expenditure, and in country, and that the expenditure of the doing so I shall call attention to four late Government was necessary. I, for periods extending over two decades. one, am not prepared to do that. I be- The years which I will take are the lieve the expenditure which was sanc- years 1865, 1870, 1875, and 1880; and tioned by the late Administration was I think the periods that I have selected an extravagant one; and it is because have this advantage-that in 1865 and I believe that the National Expenditure 1870 we had a Liberal Administration has been still further increasing that in power, and in 1875 and 1880 we had I purpose to call the attention of the a Conservative Administration in power, House to the matter. I see that the and the Chancellor of the Exchequer Expenditure of the year 1881, which during the first of those periods is hapclosed on the 31st of March, 1881, pily still with us, and now occupies the the gross Expenditure was £83,107,000. same position, and the Chancellor of the That, of course, appears to be a very Exchequer of the two last periods is also enormous sum; but it would be unfair happily still with us. Therefore, I am to represent that that amount was the dealing with an expenditure which Memreal Expenditure of the country. It bers of both the late and the present would be unfair to do so for this rea- Governments carried on. Taking those four periods, I find that in 1865 the net Expenditure was £60,900,000; in 1879 it had grown to £62,700,000; in 1875 it grew to £66,500,000; and in 1880 it had reached £76,100,000. If I were to sit down here, without saying another word, I think I should have established my charge that the National Expendi ture has recently very heavily increased. Now, Sir, with respect to the details, I find that the greatest items of increase are the Army and Civil Service. In 1865 the Civil Service expenditure was £9,300,000; in 1870 it was £11,000,000; in 1875 it was £13,500,000; and in 1880 it was £16,900,000. Our Naval and Military expenditure in 1865 was £25,280,000; and in 1880 it has reached £30,422,000. The rate of taxation per head during those periods was, in 1865, £2 58.; in 1870 it was £2 48. ; in 1875 it was £2 58.; and in 1880 it was £2 98. It cannot be said that we are at a time when the national prosperity goes by leaps and bounds; because at the present we have son - that out of this £83,000,000 a large amount of work is done for the public, for which the public pays, and gets its money's worth for its money. In order to ascertain the true amount of the Expenditure of the country you must, in the first place, deduct the amounts for the Post Office and the Telegraphs, as that is work for which the Government receives payment from the public. You must also deduct the cost of collecting the Revenue, and you must also deduct the interest on Local Loans-that is, loans which the Government lend to the Local Authorities, and in respect of which the Local Authorities pay interest. You must also deduct the payment for the specific loan for the Suez Canal Shares, in respect of which the Government receive interest. These sums amount, in the aggregate, to £8,877,661, which leaves the Expenditure of the country at £74,230,000. Now, that £74,230,000 is made up of three or four different items. There is our Mr. H. H. Fowler that our Navy should be supreme above all other Navies in the world. Our Navy is our first and last line of defence, and no Englishman would grudge expenditure to make the Navy efficient in all parts of the world; but our Army is not so much an expenditure for defence as an expenditure regulated by policy; and if we attempt to become a rival of any of the Continental Military Powers, we at once embark upon a great increase of our Military expenditure. Let me draw attention to the increase in our Army expenditure. I exclude the Indian Army. In 1865 the number of men voted was 78,410; in 1870 it increased to 84,361; in 1875, when we had the first dawn of the Imperial policy, the number increased to 92,386; and in 1880 it increased to 108,287. MR. CHILDERS: When my hon. Friend speaks of 1865, does he mean 1864-5, or 1865-6? MR. H. H. FOWLER: 1864-5. MR. CHILDERS: Then 1880 means 1879-80 ? MR. H. H. FOWLER: Yes. We had a period of the most unexampled agricultural and manufacturing depression. Every industry in the country is at a disadvantage compared with what it was five or six years ago; and it appears that 1d. on the Income Tax this year produces considerably less than last year-a striking indication of the decrease in the earning and saving power of the country. Yet not only do we find in these circumstances an increase in the National Expenditure, but an increase in local taxation. The pure local taxation levied in this country last year, independently of gas rates, water rates, and every rate for which service was directly rendered, was £21,000,000 sterling; and local loans, which were also increasing, amounted in the last two years to upwards of £30,000,000-a fact which surely proves the necessity of placing some check upon local expenditure. Well, the question arises, in what direction is relief to be looked for? My answer is, in two quarters-the Civil Service and the Military and Naval expenditure. The first thing that I shall deal with in the Civil Service expenditure is the great increase in our educational expenditure. I am the last man to deprecate the expenditure of money on National Education'; but I think that the guardians of the public purse are bound to see that we get our money's worth for our money. There is such a thing as educational expenditure and extravagant educational expenditure. I rejoice to see an increasing number of children receiving the grant for education; but the increase of late has been owing not only to an increase in number, MR. H. H. FOWLER continued: I but to an increase in the grant per head. have said this question of expenditure In 1865 the grant per child was 98. 4d.; is, after all, a question of policy. Noin 1870 it was 108. 1d.; in 1875 it was thing is so easy as to sneer at those 13s. 3d.; and in 1880 it had reached who advocated a reduction in the Mili158. 6d. Not 50,000 were presented in tary expenditure as the "Peace-at-anyStandard VI., and only a percentage price Party." Well, I am not ashamed had passed in that Standard, which can- to say in this House that I believe not be considered at all satisfactory; so all war, except a purely defensive war, that both as to efficiency and economy is a crime; and as a Christian nation very strict supervision is required. I we ought not to engage in any war now come to what, after all, is the great except in defence. And if we adopt source of the expense of this country-a policy of peace, of non-intervention, a source which is a question of policy of attending to our own interests, a source which we, as Liberals, invariably attack in the country, and which we ought to be consistent in attacking in this House-the expense for Naval and Military purposes. I am one of those who hold the opinion of Mr. Cobden have, in addition, created a magnificent Reserve of 450,000 of Militia, Yeomanry, Volunteers, and Army Reserve. I am passing no censure upon the present Government, as they have at present hardly found themselves masters of the situation; but I think the time has now arrived when some serious steps should be taken to diminish the outlay. Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present, of not posing as arbiters of the whole civilized world, of not maintaining that no shot shall be fired in Europe except with our consent, we can adopt one scale of expenditure; but if we adopt an aggressive, interfering policy, we must pay for it. I want to call the attention of the House to the pressure this expenditure has upon the working classes of this country. There is a general opinion that our expenditure is a matter of very little import whether it rises or falls. A penny off or on the Income Tax is a matter of very trifling moment, and so it is to people of large accumulated fortune; but if we would realize how our taxation presses upon the working classes, and upon the class above the working classes, and how unfair and unequal it is in its incidence, you would see that there are other reasons, besides those of economy, in favour of a reduction. Our taxation is not only heavy, but it presses unfairly. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget, proposes to place 3 per cent Probate Duty. Now, suppose a man dies worth £10,000. That is a large sum to be made, say, by a professional man by the exercise of his brain and the sweat of his brow. He is taxed at once £300. Another man dies worth £1,000,000, and you tax him £30,000. Do you mean to tell me the incidence is the same? But where do you levy the bulk of the taxation? You do so upon articles of daily consumption. You levy it upon the pennies; and those pennies are a serious item in the weekly income of the working classes. You levy it upon tea, coffee, tobacco, and beer, and these are the necessities of every working man's daily life. The tax upon tea is from 20 to 25 per cent; tobacco is taxed between 300 to 400 per cent. The tax upon beer is something like a farthing a pint. These are considerable taxes; and if the working classes of this country ever realize-and the day will come when they will realize-the amount they pay out of their weekly earnings for the taxation of this country, they will, as Sir James Graham said about another tax, want to know the reason why. The average earnings of the artizan class are from £2 per week to £1 per week, and with a tax of 25 per cent for one necessity, and 300 or 400 for another, you are subjecting them not only to a heavy pressure of taxation, but to an unequal pressure which no other class suffers. I hope the day will soon come when the working classes will ask to be relieved of this burden; and it is wise on the part of those who manage our financial affairs to make ready for a rainy day by Mr. H. H. Fowler the reduction of the extravagant expenditure of this country. I had intended to call attention to what the Prime Minister uttered during his memorable campaign in Mid Lothian. No one spoke in stronger terms, or denounced in severer language, the extravagance of the late Administration, and we as Liberals are bound to strengthen his hands. I do not believe he has changed. I believe he is the most economical Chancellor of the Exchequer that ever held the reins; and if the House of Commons will back him, he will be prepared to carry out practically and to good effect those principles which have been the principles of his financial administration, and upon which he took Office. I ask the House to pass no censure on this Government or on that Government; but I do ask you to affirm the fact that the expenditure of this country has gone on recently and rapidly increasing, and to express your opinion that it is the duty-I think it is the first duty of Her Majesty's Government to take immediate steps to diminish that expenditure. Motion made, and Question proposed, recent increase in the National Expenditure de "That, in the opinion of this House, the mands the earnest and immediate attention of Her Majesty's Government with the view of effecting such reductions as may be consistent with the efficiency of the Public Service."—(Mr. Henry H. Fowler.) Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present, House adjourned at a quarter before Nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, 18th May, 1881. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE - Herring PUBLIC BILLS-Ordered-First Reading - Local ORDER OF THE DAY. FREE EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. (Dr. Cameron, Mr. Baxter, Mr. Duncan M'Laren, Mr. Ernest Noel, Mr. Peddie, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Mackintosh.) [BILL 6.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Local Government Provisional Orders (Acton, | might have borne harshly on parents of &c.) [159]; Free Education (Scotland) [6], the poorer class; but it would have had put off. Considered as amended-Local Government Pro- the merit that it would have left us free visional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2) * [139]. trade, which in education, as in other matThird Reading-Local Government Provisional ters, insures competition and economy. Orders (Berwick-upon-Tweed, &c.) [138], The one duty of the State, through and passed. such local machinery as it might appoint, would have been to see that the minimum of education required was afforded; and we should have been saved from much responsibility, from many inducements to extravagance, from all interference with private enterprize, and from a costly machinery for the collection and distribution of grants and rates. Or Parliament, in dealing with the question from a logical standpoint, might have adopted another view. It might have held that as compulsory education had been enacted in the public interest, it was the public business to provide that education. as far as it was compulsory. It might have decreed that schools of the sort required should be scattered over the country wherever needed, and that the education therein afforded should be free to all. But in dealing with this question, as with every question of practical politics, the Legislature found itself face to face with existing interests; and the result was, of necessity, a compromise. Notwithstanding the great simplicity and the many advantages of non-subsidized compulsory educationof a system compelling the parent to provide education as he provides food for his children-Parliament put that course and the arguments on which it would have rested entirely aside. It acknowledged the principle that, the compulsion being decreed in the public interest, the public should pay for it, and that wherever through poverty the parent was unable to contribute anything to the education of his children, the entire cost should be defrayed out of public funds, without entailing upon him the stigma or disabilities of pauperism; but when, in addition to contributing his quota to the educational rates and taxes, the parent could be made to pay fees as well, Parliament decreed that he should do so. There was no logical justification for this course; but Parliament adopted it in the interest of existing voluntary and adventure schools. Or, probably, more correctly speaking, in the interests of the voluntary denominational schools alone, for the elementary adventure schools, hav DR. CAMERON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said: After prolonged deliberations, Parliament has again and again, in the cases of England and Scotland, pronounced in favour of compulsory education, and on each occasion on which it has reverted to the subject it has extended the application of compulsion. In the first English Education Act the adoption of compulsory bye-laws was left optional. In the last Parliament, another Act was passed, and the result is that, according to the latest Report of the Committee of Council on Education, 73 per cent of the entire population of England and Wales, and 97 per cent of the borough population, are now under compulsory bye-laws. In the case of Scotland, a more summary method was adopted; and on the passing of the Scottish Act, I am happy to say, compulsory education became law from one end of the country to the other; but in the case of Scotland, during last Parliament, legislation was again invoked to make that compulsion more ready and effective. Having adopted the principle of compulsion in education, it was open to Parliament to follow one of two logical courses. It might either have laid it down that to educate his children was the duty of every parent quite as much as it was to feed or clothe them. It might have enacted that every parent must educate, as he must feed, his children, at his own cost, providing, in the one case as in the other, that where the parent, through poverty, was unable to do so, the parish should step in to ward off from the child intellectual, as it now does physical starvation. This course |