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ERNE LOUGH AND RIVER BILL.

Notice. I have seen in a London newsIMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT ABOLITION BILL. paper à telegram, dated Newcastle,

On Motion of Mr. Bass, Bill to abolish the Tuesday, in which it is stated thatpower of Imprisonment for Debt by Inferior Courts, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bass,

“ The Commission has arrived at a very imMr. ANDERSON, Sir HENRY WOLFF, and Mr. portant decision with reference to the nonBROADHURST.

delivery of the Potchefstroom guns. They have Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 170.] determined that until the guns are surrendered

they will not enter the Transvaal.” INDUSTRIAL AND REFORMATORY SCHOOLS I should like to know, Whether that (IRELAND) (LOANS) BILL.

statement is correct; and, if so, whether On Motion of Colonel Contuurst, Bill to it will involve any suspension in the afford facilities for the erection, enlargement, business which the Commission has to improvement, and purchase of buildings for transact? It is also reported that Industrial and Reformatory Schools in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Colonel COLTHURST,

** There is news from Pretoria that comMr. Martin, Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, and Mr. mandeering on an extensive scale is going on Shaw.

there for war against the Native chief MontBill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 172.] suine, who remained loyal to us. The natives

near Pretoria are coming in there in numbers

to escape being commandeered by the Boers." On Motion of Mr. John HOLMS, Bill to If this be true, the fact is incompatible explain and amend the Erne Lough and River with the supposition that the Boer Acts, 1876 and 1879, ordered to be brought in Leaders are enforcing their decisions by Mr. John Holus and Lord FREDERICK upon their followers; and if such a state CAVENDISH.

of things were allowed to continue, it Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 171.]

may result in fatal consequences. I will House adjourned at five minutes not trouble the House at present with before Six o'clock, any further comments on these two

statements, except to observe that they are statements of extreme gravity.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, it was decided a month

ago

that

for various reasons, and especially the HOUSE OF LORDS,

absence of telegraphic communication

with the Transvaal, the Commission Thursday, 19th May, 1881. should sit at Newcastle, in Natal, and

we have not heard of any proposal to change the place of meeting. The most

recent intelligence of any disputes beMINUTES.)-Public Bills-First Reading

Local Government Provisional Orders (Ber-tween the Boers and Native tribes was wick-upon-Tweed, &c.) * (85); Veterinary received on the 12th instant, when Sir Surgeons * (87).

Evelyn Wood reported that Major Buller Committee--Tramways (Ireland) Acts Amend. and Mr. Joubert were going to the ment (74); Inclosure Provisional Orders Keete Award territory to part the Boers (Scotton and Ferry Common* (64); Regula: and the tribe of Montsia, a Bechuana tion Provisional Order (Langbar Moor) * (63); Regulation Provisional Order (Beamsley

Chief. It is not stated that the Boers Moor)* (62); Metropolitan Commons Sup. were commandeering Natives. plemental * (65); Inclosure Provisional Order (Wibsey Slack and Low Moor Commons) (71).

AFFAIRS OF TUNIS.
Committee- Report-Stolen Goods * (60-86).
Third Reading-Local Government Provisional

Orders (Bath, &c.)* (77); Local Government EARL DE LA WARR gave Notice (Highways) Provisional Order (York)* (78), that he would postpone his Motion relaand passed.

tive to the affairs of Tunis till an early

day, when he hoped that the Papers proSOUTH AFRICA-THE TRANSVAAL

mised by Her Majesty's Government THE COJEMISSION.-QUESTION.

would be

upon

the Table of the House. THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I wish EARL GRANVILLE: I beg to preto ask the noble Earl opposite, the Se- sent to the House Papers with re cretary of State for the Colonies, a Ques- | to the affairs of Tunis. I hope that a tion of which I have given him private large portion of them will be in the

POSTPONEMENT OF MOTION.

COMMITTEE.

hands of your Lordships to-morrow; Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery but I can scarcely hope that they will Office," lately presented to Parliament all be delivered by that time.

by command of Her Majesty, said, that

the Report showed a very great increase TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACTS AMEND- in the cost of stationery and printing MENT BILL.-(No. 74.)

during the last few years, but that a (The Lord Monteagle.)

saving, estimated at £55,000, had been

effected by making certain changes in House in Committee (according to the contracts for printing. It was a Order).

remarkable fact, that whereas in 1823

the cost of the Stationery Department Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

had been only £68,000, it amounted Clause 5 (Regulations as to speed of last year to £460,000. It appeared that locomotives on tramways).

each House had a separate printer, and The DUKE OF RICHMOND AND this involved in some cases duplicate GORDON wished to draw attention to printing, the cost of which could be the fact that, while the width of road saved if both Houses had the same on which tramways might be constructed printer. Their Lordships' printing was was reduced from 25 feet to 18 feet, the done at a much more moderate rate than cars were authorized to run at a speed that of the other House; and the figures of 10 miles per hour. It seemed to him seemed to show that a considerable savo that there was no necessity for such a ing might be effected if the printing conspeed, and that it could not be unattracts of the Houses were subject to tended with danger to the public.

competition, as were the printing con. Lord MONTEAGLE observed, that tracts for the Government Departments. in regard to tramways in the neighbour-He, therefore, begged to ask, in the hood of London, similar to those sought terms of his Notice, Whether Her Mato be authorized by the Bill, a speed of jesty's Government proposed to institute 10 miles an hour had been agreed to by inquiries as to the possibility of effectParliament. The tramways were to be ing improvements in the printing and constructed in country districts; but publishing of Acts of Parliament, and even in the case of cities, such as Bristol, other Official papers ? a speed of eight miles through busy

LORD THURLOW said, the Report streets had been sanctioned.

to which the noble Lord had called atTHE EARL OF CARNARVON thought tention was one of considerable interest, that even in country districts 10 miles being the first of its kind presented to an hour was too high a rate of speed. Parliament by a Department which had

THE EARL OF LONGFORD said, he been steadily growing in importance could not concur in that opinion, and ever since its creation, just 100 years hoped their Lordships would not adopt ago, and which now exercised annual the over-cautious view of the noble control over upwards of £500,000—its Duke.

gross expenditure in 1879-80 being THE EARL OF COURTOWN, in sup- £568,377. In reply to the Question of porting the clause, said, that the consent the noble Lord, ho had to state that the of the Grand Juries of the counties in Report of the Controller of Her Mawhich the tramways were to be con- jesty's Stationery Office had received structed was required ; and they were the careful consideration of Her Mawell acquainted with the roads and with jesty's Government, who proposed to the nature of the traffic which might be institute inquiries as to the possibility expected to be carried over them. of effecting improvements in the printClause agreed to.

ing and publishing of Acts of Parlia

ment and other Oflicial papers. In the Remaining Clauses agreed to, with opinion of Her Majesty's Government, Amendments: The Report thereof to this Inquiry should take the shape of a be received on Tuesday next.

joint Committee of both Houses; and

the exact scope of the Reference to that PARLIAMENTARY PRINTING.

Committee would remain to be hereafter QUESTION

determined, but would certainly include LORD MONTEAGLE, in rising to call a revision of what was known as the attention to the “First Report of the promulgation list,” a somewhat anti

Earl Granville

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OBSERVATIONS.

quated and obsolete document, more the offence of conspiracy to assassinate particularly described at page 12 of the Sovereigns. In 1876, even Belgium, Report. It would also include all points which was one of the freest countries in connected with the printing, storage, and the world, declared that an attack on or publication of Acts of Parliament, Orders murder of any Sovereign or of any in Council, and Parliamentary Papers member of his family was without the which required consideration. The Com- pale of the right of asylum. His attenmittee would further inquire in what tion was drawn to a meeting held in this manner the many reforms and econo City, on the 16th of April, at the rooms mies recently introduced and proposed of the Slavonic Club, Hampstead Street, in Her Majesty's Stationery Office might Fitzroy Square, which was attended by best be supplemented and carried out. persons of all nationalities, when it was The Report was a singularly concise and proposed and carried "That this meetsatisfactory document, and would well ing expresses its profound sympathy repay the perusal of all interested in with the martyrs of liberty hanged at the subject. He begged to give Notice St. Petersburg ;” and it was added-that on that day week he would move “The present Czar must not think that on behalf of Her Majesty's Government he would reign long if he did as his for the appointment of the Committee father had done." He was perfectly in question.

aware of the difficulty the Government

had to deal with in this matter ; but INTERNATIONAL LAW-RIGHT OF

though Englishmen had a right to pride ASYLUM FOR POLITICAL OFFENDERS.

themselves on the fact that England

afforded a safe asylum for political reQUESTION.

fugees from all nations, still, when such LORD LAMINGTON asked Her Ma- a Chamber as that of Belgium had taken jesty's Government, Whether the report measures to provide against the abuse of is true that certain Foreign Powers had the right of asylum, we ought not to made representations to them respecting neglect co-operating with other counthe right of asylum for political of tries in the endeavour to exclude confenders in this country; and, if so, spirators from our midst, and those who whether the correspondence will be laid did not hesitate to instigate to murder. on the Table? He attached consider- He trusted, therefore, that Government able importance to the report, because would not hesitate to give a favourable early in April the German Parliament reply to any representation which might all but unanimously passed a Resolution be made to them on the subject by advocating International Treaties for the foreign Powers. prosecution and extradition of persons EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I guilty of attacks against the Chiefs of cannot help thinking that the noble States, It was pointed out that the Lord has spoken under some misappreattempts of the Nihilists and other poli-hension of the facts of the case. No tical refugees were often directed not representation has been made to Her only against one, but against all Govern- Majesty's Government in regard to the ments, and therefore the action taken right of asylum for political offenders. should be of an international character: This question has been repeatedly raised, Instigation to these crimes was to be re- and the decision of this country is now garded as conspiring, and the nationality so well known abroad that it is not likely of the offender was to make no differ- that any representations will be made ence in the application of the law. To again. In 1852 I held the Seals of the provoke to murder was more wicked Foreign Office only for two months ; than to murder, and to tempt more but during that short time it was my devilish than to fall. Their Lordships duty to issue a Circular in answer to would agree with him that the feeling strong representations from all the Great abroad was almost universal that there Powers on this subject. In that Circular should not be any right of asylum in the principles were laid down on which the case of political murderers, or would-be right of asylum to political offenders was murderers. In Austria it was proposed granted. First, it was laid down that recently in the Reichstag that a Treaty foreigners had a right to be admitted should be negotiated with other Govern- and to reside in this country; secondly, ments to extradite foreigners guilty of being here, that they had a right to

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the protection of our laws, but at the "How am I to act with regard to the and, thirdly, that the Government had answer it at all." Lord Palmerston no power to send them away from said—“I think that will be the best the country except under the condi- way.” And in that the whole of the tions of Extradition Treaties. That Cir- Cabinet acquiesced without saying a 'cular went on, on the other hand, to de- word. The Bill was introduced and nounce in very strong terms the flagrant read a first]time without comment; but abuse of the hospitality given to fo- on the second reading was opposed not reigners in attempting to incite insur- only by Mr. Milner Gibson, Mr. Cobden, rection in the countries they belonged and Mr. Bright, but by Mr. Disraeli, Mr. to. It was formally stated that Her Gladstone, and Lord John Russell, and Majesty's Government would exercise the result was that they obtained a ma. all legal powers at their command to jority, and the Government of Lord prevent such attempts being made. Palmerston was destroyed and a Cine That Circular was very much criticized servative Government was formed. The in many parts of the Continent; but, ground the majority took in opposing I believe, it was universally acknow- the Bill was not objection to the im. ledged in this country to be a sound ex- provement of the law, but to no answer position of the national doctrine on the having been sent to Count Walewski subject. Ten years ago, when it hap- to vindicate the state of our laws. A pened that I was again at the Foreign year or two later that improvement in Office, I had a similar representation the law was agreed to without a single from the Spanish Government. I made dissentient voice in a clause of another an answer, and in so doing put into a Bill. I only mention this to point out more condensed form the same state- how exceedingly jealous the feeling of ment and phrases. My despatch was this country has been, and how strong presented to Parliament as the Circular I believe it will continue to be, in case had been, and I think, if I am not mis- of any notion of foreign interference taken, there was no one person, either with regard to our own domestic legisin this House or the other House of lation. I have said that no representaParliament, to call it in question, ex- tion has been made this year with recepting my noble Friend (Lord Laming- gard to the right of asylum. I am glad ton). I might further allude to another to repeat that that is the case. What circumstance that no doubt all remember has happened is this. The Russian Go-namely, what occurred at the time of vernment applied to Her Majesty's Go. the Orsini attempt on the life of the late vernment, with the approval of the Emperor of the French. Count Walewski Government of Germany, to join a Conwrote a strong letter at that time, not ference to consider what practical meadiscreetly worded, reflecting on the state sures should be adopted in order to preof our law in relation to the conduct of vent criminal efforts on the part of refugees in this country. Lord Palmercertain associations, but guarded herston's Government, having considered self against any interference with our the subject, came to the conclusion that internal laws. I do not think, my there was something in our laws which Lords, it is surprising, after the frightrequired amendment, and prepared a ful catastrophe of the murder of the Bill by which the crime of conspiring to late Emperor, that Russia should have murder or inciting to murder, whether desired, among other means of dealing the murder was to be in this or in any with Nihilism, to seek the co-operation foreign country, should be a felony, and of other Powers. It is certainly no not a misdemeanour, as it then was. I feeling of sympathy with Nihilism that Upon that occasion the matter was very has induced Her Majesty's Government carefully considered in the Cabinet. As to think it would not be advantageous it is so long ago, I may mention that | to join such a Conference. If Nihilism I remember hours being spent in dis- means, as it seems to do, a general cussing the Bill and the prudence of war against the laws and institutions presenting it to Parliament at that of organized societies, not by appeal time As we were about to separate, to opinion, but by murder and other the despatch of Count Walewski was crimes, it is the duty and the interest of referred to, and Lord Clarendon said this country to oppose and to punish it

Earl Grantele

by all the legal means in our power. I divided into five parts, of which the first To go beyond those legal means is im- (Tunis No. 1) contains the Corresponpossible ; but we believe those means dence previous to this year.

Tunis are sufficient for the purpose. It seemed No. 2 will contain the more recent Corto us that to join the Conference would respondence up to May 7. No. 3 will not have led to any practical results, contain some important Despatches but would have had a contrary effect as written within the last few days, which to the objects proposed. In no country will be given separately. No. 4 will has the national indignation against contain complete Correspondence up to such crimes been more strongly shown date; and No. 5, that relating to the both in and out of Parliament than in Enfida case. England; but I am convinced that to accept the Conference would not have ISLANDS OF THE WESTERN PACIFICbeen approved by Parliament or by the MURDERS OF BRITISH SUBJECTS. nation. But this refusal only makes it

SIR JOHN HAY asked the Under more incumbent upon us to exert all Secretary of State for the Colonies, If legal powers to prevent acts prejudicial | he can state the number of British subto foreign and friendly Governments, jects murdered since the 1st of January more especially with regard to murders, 1880, including the officers and crews of whether such' murders or attempts to the Ripple," " Esperanza,” “Lolia,” murder are directed against private in Mystery,"' « Borealis," " Dauntless," dividuals, or against Sovereigns and Annie Brooks,” and H.M.S. “SandChiefs of States,

fly,” in the Pacific, and how many of VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL (H.L.]

the murderers have been tried at Levuka

or elsewhere? A Bill to amend the Law relating to Veterinary Surgeons-Was presented by The Lord

MR. GRANT DUFF: Sir, at least 40 ABERDARE ; read 1a. (No. 87.)

British subjects have been murdered, to
House adjourned at Six o'clock, till say nothing of Chinese and others not

To-morrow, half past British subjects, though sailing under
Ten o'clock. | the British flag, and very probably

more, for I fear that even the long list
of ships given by the right hon. and

gallant Gentleman is not exhaustive. HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Not one of the murderers concerned in

these outrages either was or could have Thursday, 19th May, 1881.

been tried at Levuka or anywhere else by any British authority, even if he

could have been found. The High ComMINUTES.) — SELECT COMMITTEE Report - missioner of the Western Pacific has

Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of
Commons) (No. 234].

merely jurisdiction over British subjects. Private Bill (by Order) Considered as amended The only punishment that could be in

Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation (Loans, / flicted in these seas on savages who ar &c.)*

not British subjects is by acts of war, Public Bills-Ordered --First Reading-Church | and with acts of war the Department

Patronage (No. 2) * (175). Second Reading-Land Law (Ireland) [135]– which I have the honour to represent (Eighth Night]; Solicitors' Remuneration * has nothing directly to do. The repres(100).

sion of such acts as those to which the Cominittee Report Bankruptcy and Cessio | Question refers belongs to the Admiralty.

(Scotland) * (81-174].
Third Reading - Local Government Provisional
Orders (Poor Law)(No. 2)* (139), and passed. PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT,

1881-GUN LICENCES.
QUESTIONS.
COLONEL COLTHURST asked

the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant

of Ireland, Whether his attention has AFFAIRS OF TUNIS—THE PAPERS.

been called to the alleged refusal by SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, I a magistrate (Mr. R. Pratt) attending would ask leave to explain that in order | Ballincollig, county Cork, Petty Sesto avoid delay, the Correspondence re- sions, to grant certificates for licences to lating to the affairs of Tunis has been keep a gun to several respectable far

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