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comes from hope, and the Irish people have no hope. Go amongst them and see how listless and despondent they are. Go to America and see what Irishmen are there. They have made the railroads, they have built cities, and Irish

be prevented from working, as the right hon. Gentleman had suggested in his first speech on this question? I feel convinced that if the labourers were rendered independent, on the one hand, of the landlord, and, on the other, of the farmer, if he were independent to the ex-men are to be found there distinguished tent only of his small house and his little garden plot, the quality of his labour would be much improved, and he would be contented with his lot; a stimulus would be given to his industry in the shape of the hope of, in time, becoming possessed of greater property. In that way a fresh incentive to industry would be held out to the agricultural labourer of Ireland. I do not think the question of the agricultural labourer could be settled by meddling with the farmers, or by insisting upon the latter building houses or improving the labourers' little plots. I would put the labourer under the protection of the Commission, just in the same way as I propose that the smaller tenants should be put under it; and, if the Commission were formed of men who would not shrink from trouble -of Gentlemen such as I now see on the opposite side of the House, some Englishmen and some Irishmen-I feel convinced that the result would be an enormous improvement in the condition of the labourers throughout Ireland, and a material diminution in the amount of disaffection that, at present, unfortunately exists among the lower classes of Ireland. You cannot expect that the people will be contented as long as they are starving. At any rate, before you apply the remedy of emigration try the other plan-namely, the development of the resources of the country, and I will undertake to say you will not be disappointed in the result. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has asked, "Why are there no industries-why is there no enterprize in Ireland ?" It is not very difficult to find the reason. The Irishman has been trained to the knowledge that the result of his labour will not accrue to him. He has learned that that also has been the experience of his fathers before him; and he has come to the conclusion that the less capital he lays by and invests in the land, or anything else, the better for him, and the less is he at the mercy of other people. We cannot have industry in a country without a spirit of enterprize; enterprize Mr. Parnell

in every walk of life. They are to be found as employers of labour, as manufacturers, and as professional men. We know that Fulton, the inventor of the steamboat, was the son of an Irishman; we know that Roche, the great shipbuilder, and Mackey, Flood, and O'Brien, the most successful miners that exist, are all true-born Irishmen. Here is an example of Irish enterprize. When I was in Cincinnati a short time ago, Mr. Holland, an Irishman, took me over his shop, and presented me with 50 dollars and a gold pencil-case, in aid of the Land League. Mr. Holland emigrated some nine or ten years ago from the City of Cork as a poor boy, who found that he could not get on in his own country. I found him employing 200 hands in the manufacture of gold and silver pencil-cases, and sending his goods to Manchester, Paris, and other places, successfully competing with other manufacturers. I saw that Mr. Holland had just made a discovery, which promised to make a revolution in electric lighting. He has discovered how to fuse the metal iridium, which has, hitherto, been considered to be infusible, and has so supplied the want of an electric burner. Now, the reason the Irish do not succeed in Ireland is because a nation governed by another nation never does succeed. Under such circumstances, communities lose that feeling of independence which to them is just as necessary as to individuals, in order to promote exertion. The curse of your rule-of foreign rule in Ireland, overshadows everything. The conduct of Her Majesty's Government during the past few months has been leading many moderate men to believe that until your Chief Secretaries and Under Secretaries, your Privy Councillors and your Central Boards, your stipendiary magistrates and military police, your landlords and bailiffs, are cleared out bag and baggage, there can be no hope of any permanent improvement of the country. I think Sir, I have said enough to show why I ought not to compromise myself or those whom I repre

sent, by accepting a measure which I fear | result of his deliberate conviction, but cannot be either a final or a satisfactory that he may have indulged in some of solution of this question. I regret very those remarks which he sometimes yields much that the Government appear deter- to the temptation of making. I cermined to miss the great chance which is tainly would fain hope that some of his open to them. I believe that if they had closing remarks are of a character that adopted a different course-had they he would not, upon reflection, desire us permitted remedial legislation to precede to take as his deliberate conviction; but, coercion-they would have found a very whether that be so or not, I think there much stronger feeling in this country be- is one thing we may learn from the hind them, and that they would have speech-and that is, that in approachbeen enabled to have carried through ing the consideration of this Bill which this House, and also through the other the Government have presented to us House, a much stronger and more per- to work upon, we must lay aside the fect Bill. I hope the result will prove idea that the measure is to be passed that I am wrong in my forecast as to the whether we approve of it, or wheeffect of the Bill. No one hopes more ther we disapprove of it in our own sincerely than I do that the measure will minds-for the purpose of pacifying the turn out better for the Irish tenants than people who are causing the agitation and I fear it can. As I have said, I and my trouble in Ireland. It is perfectly clear Friends have no desire to keep things in from the speech-indeed, there have a perpetual state of confusion. We de- been other speeches delivered in the sire to see this Land Question and every course of these debates that would show other Irish question settled. We desire the same thing-that no measure such to see this division amongst the classes as this-probably no measure that any --which, I fear, some Englishmen desire Government would be likely to submit to to perpetuate for their own purposes- the House-will have the effect of satisdone away with. We do not want the fying and silencing the demands of those Irish landlords and the Irish tenants who are represented by the hon. Gentlecontinually to live in opposing camps. man. I think it is well at the outset to As individuals, the landlords are well take note of that fact, because we have fitted to take their place as the leaders before us a most serious question, and of the Irish nation. They have been we have to consider matters of very placed, up to the present time, by legis- great difficulty and very great delicacy; lation in a false position, and they would and there is no doubt that we approach have been more than human if they them-that hon. Members in different could have filled it without shame and parts of the House approach them-from disgrace. I would entreat the Govern- different points of view, and are guided ment to re-consider the question, and to by very different considerations. It is endeavour, in Committee, to make the well that we should know, in considering measure more healthy for the poor peo- these matters, what are the grounds we ple, and less hurtful, and to bring about have for believing that the measure-of such improvement in it that we, the Irish the intrinsic merits of which we may Members, may vote for it without feeling have doubts-ought to be passed for the that we are compromising the position sake of giving peace and preventing conwe have hitherto occupied and sustained. fusion in Ireland. Now, we have arrived, SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: II think, at the end of the eighth night do not know, Mr. Speaker, what impression the speech we have just listened to has produced upon the mind of the House. For my own part, I must say that I have listened to it with much interest, and, at the same time, a great deal of pain. The hon. Gentleman has told us very frankly that he is some-But I venture to think that we have not times subject to the temptation to take "oratorical flights," and therefore I hope that, with reference to some of the observations he has made, we are not to look on them as altogether the VOL. CCLXI. [THIRD SERIES.]

of these debates, and we are still discussing the second reading of the Bill; and it has been said that a very considerable proportion of the discussions which we have carried on have been discussions on points that ought rather to have been considered in Committee.

been at all excessive in the time we have spent in the consideration of this measure, or in the manner in which it has been criticized, because, in point of fact, this is a Bill as to which so very much [Eighth Night.]

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his horse, or his plough, or any other article that belongs to him. I think I heard from one of the speakers, I forget which-either the Attorney General, or the hon. and learned Member for Dundalk, or some other legal Member-the statement that there was no meaning in the idea of a man having property unless he was at liberty to dispose of it. Then, if that is so, we want to know what is the meaning of these limitations of yours? If this is a man's own tenancy

depends upon the details, and the details | tenant has, and that he is to be at liberty themselves are of such a character, that to dispose of it just as he can dispose of you can hardly consider them properly if you take them one by one, and do not consider them as a whole. The Bill, I am sorry to say, is one which does not, at first sight, exactly speak for and explain itself. There are many things which, when you look at them in the first instance, you think you understand, but with regard to which, when you come to compare one clause with another, you become somewhat bewildered. We have heard a good deal on several of those points, and it is not my intention to--his own property-why do you put night to go at any length into those any limitation upon the right which you points which have been the subject of give him to dispose of it? Or, again, so much discussion; but I will take one when you talk of "his tenancy," will as an instance of the sort of difficulty in you tell us exactly how it is that he bewhich we find ourselves placed on an came possessed of the right? Some get examination of the Bill. I will take the up and say-"Oh, it is perfectly obvious first lines of the 1st clause of the Bill- how he became possessed of it. He was the most important, probably, of all the the man who improved the farm; he provisions that are contained in the mea- was the man who by his capital and by sure-in which it is laid down that the his energy made it what it is; and he is tenant of a holding shall have the right entitled to the value of the improveto dispose of his tenancy at the best price ments which he has made." Certainly, he can get for it, subject, of course, to nobody disputes that. We are all percertain limitations which are afterwards fectly ready to agree on that point; and referred to. We want to know the mean- we are, and have been-have been for ing of that expression-"tenancy." We a long time-endeavouring by legislation look to the interpretation clause as we look at a glossary, in order to see what is the meaning of "his tenancy "-what it is he has to dispose of. We turn to the end of the Bill, and we find this definition-"tenancy means the interest in a holding of a tenant and his successors in title during the continuance of a tenancy." That is one of the most extra-else is has been the cause of a very ordinary definitions I ever heard. It great part of the debates we have had is open to the sort of objection taken to listen to. I am bound to say now, to a particular mathematical equation, feel the very greatest difficulty in making when you get a solution in the terms up my own mind as to what is intended of the unknown quantity. It reminds by that expression. The Prime Minister me very much of one of the answers the other day, as I understand him, which Sir Robert Peel told us was told us that everything in the nature of given to his celebrated question-"What what is sometimes called the unearned is a pound?" The answer was "It increment-everything that arises from is the interest of £33 68. 8d. at 3 per an increase in the demand for and a cent for 12 months." That is really deficiency in the supply of land, everyvery much the sort of explanation given thing that exceptionally raises the value to these words-"his tenancy." It is of land belongs, not to the landlord, important we should know exactly what but to the tenant who happens to be it is the tenant is to have the right of in occupation. [Mr. GLADSTONE dis disposing of; and we want a much sented.] The Prime Minister shakes clearer explanation than that which is his head. That may not have been his contained in the four corners of the Bill. meaning; but it was the meaning he When we hear of "his tenancy," we are conveyed to us. There it is--we never led to suppose it is some property the know exactly where we are-when we Sir Stafford Northcote

under the Act of 1870 and otherwiseto secure to the tenant the full value of whatever he has done to improve his holding. But we are told there is something besides that. Well, it is that something else we want to know and understand; and the great difficulty we have in finding out what that something

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try to express a supposed meaning, we land, and when we were making a great are told we are wrong; and when we sacrifice with a view to a permanent and try another, we are told we are equally final settlement of this question. We at fault. The measure is avowedly are informed now that in those days framed with less regard to the laws of the Conservative Party was wiser than political economy than we are in the it seems to be to-day; that we were habit of observing in legislation, because advised in 1870 by our great Leader not we have to deal with an exceptional to oppose the settlement proposed; and state of things which makes it impossible that, moreover, when it came to work it to treat the case of Ireland as you would did not produce those formidable results treat any other case, and because it is that were foretold, but that property extremely difficult to explain the points rose in value, and every good thing hapon which a solution is to be given. pened. But why was all that? It was beWhen you bear in mind-as the hon. cause we were then deluded into the beMember for Antrim said in his excellent lief that that Act was a final settlement. speech the other day-the question as to And, whether property did rise in value how this matter will be interpreted by or not-which is a matter open to some the Court, or Commission, that will have dispute-at all events we believed that to decide on it, that will appear to be the security would be obtained, and confireal question we have to consider, and dence might very well be restored. But that will, I venture to say, keep all Ire- we cannot feel that now. I would only land in a ferment for a very consider- say a few words upon what really imable time. If that is the case, do let us presses me in this matter. We are consider for a moment how important it dealing with a question which is one of is that we should address ourselves to a gravity it is impossible to exaggerate. the Bill for the purpose of endeavouring It is not a mere question as between to understand it, and seeing how far it landlord and tenant. It is not merely a will meet the evils which it is designed, question of providing for the improveor purposes to be designed, to meet. ment and advancement of Ireland. It Hon. Gentleman get up and say "Settle is a question which touches the whole this question once for all;" others say peace and happiness and welfare of that "Pass this Bill, or something dreadful country, and of the whole of the United will happen;" and others- You will Kingdom. It is impossible to exagbe misunderstood in Ulster if you do not gerate the importance of the question. vote for this Bill; and it is important Then, for Heaven's sake! do not let us that you should not shake confidence in apply a false remedy-a remedy that the Ulster Custom." But no one, that I will not touch the disease, and which is know of, has any wish to shake that more likely to do harm than good. What custom; we all want to confirm, and ratify, is it, after all, that Ireland requires? It and strengthen, and bear up that custom. requires for its development the applicaWhen we come to what we may call tion of capital; it requires the confidence the minor premiss of the argument, we which produces capital; and it requires begin to perceive its weakness. You what is still more important, energy and say-"Settle this question once for all." wisdom in the application of that capital. We answer" Will this Bill settle it?" Until these are obtained it will be imYou say "Pass this Bill, or something possible for the people of Ireland to dreadful will happen." We answer-work out their salvation. Do not sup"Will the passing of this Bill prevent something dreadful happening?" You say-"If you do not pass the Bill, you will shake confidence in the Ulster Custom." We reply-"We are anxious to ratify and strengthen that custom; but this Bill does not do it." When all these things are said, we cannot but remember that very similar statements were made in 1870. We were told the same thing when we were dealing deliberately and scientifically with the great Upas tree which was overshadowing Ire

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pose that by any measure you can pass you can do for the people of Ireland that which they can only do for themselves. They must themselves be prepared to work with a proper spirit and energy; and it can only be by the exercise of those great moral qualities of enterprize, self-restraint, and selfexertion, that they can become a happy and contented people. Now, is the measure which you are proposing well calculated to bring out these qualities? I will not say--we should be not quite un[Eighth Night.]

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justly accused of harshness if we were to view-to make the people owners of the say-to the people of Ireland-" We can soil-and spoke of the other portions of give you no help in these difficulties; the Bill as being only a modus rivendi you will have to struggle through them until that was done. But I very much unaided by combining energy with self-doubt, from the speech of the Prime denial." God knows, the people of Ireland have had enough of suffering, and anything we can do to help them ought to be done freely and liberally. For my own part, I would not be too strict in observing all the principles of political economy in this matter, if I thought that good could be done by a departure from a course that might seem to be not properly applicable. But let us take care we are helping in the right way. I do not in my conscience believe, and I very much doubt that there are many persons in this House who do believe, that the way to promote peace and happiness in Ireland is to bring about all this quarrelling, and all this confusion in the relations between landlords and tenants. There are still points which we may, no doubt, carefully consider, with the view of placing landlords and tenants on the best terms; but, even then, if the changes which might result be such as do not amount to a total revolution in the whole state of society-if they do not amount to the absolute destruction and overturning of what is called landlordism-I venture to say that many of the smaller changes that you may make will not touch the fringe of the question with which you have to deal. I know there are measures pointed at in the 5th part of this Bill which seem to me to present something of a much more hopeful character; and for my own part I am desirous, and my Friends near me are desirous, to promote as far as possible that portion of the measure. But, even there, we feel ourselves in considerable doubt, because we are unable to assure ourselves how far the Government are really in earnest in endeavouring to press that part of the Bill. We know very well that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has always been a strong advocate for the establishment of a peasant proprietary in Ireland. That is, no doubt, the part of the Bill to which he will give his support, and which he looks upon as a matter of great importance. The noble Lord the Secretary of State for India, the other day, in a speech which he made outside this House, spoke of it as being the principal object which the Bill had in Sir Stafford Northcote

Minister, whether that is the view which he takes. It would seem that he regarded the first part as the principal part of the Bill, and that he looked for the regeneration of Ireland to the alteration of the relations between landlord and tenant, and to the recognition of the tenant's interest in the property to an extent which I could not gather, but which I understood him to say included all that rise in value which might be due to the great competition for land. I think it well that we should be made to understand that point, because there seems to be considerable doubt with regard to it. I do not wish to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman; but we understood him the other day to say that the expression, "fair rent at the market rate," was a contradiction in terms, because the highest market rent included two things-the one being the value that was obtained by the tenant's outlay, the other the value acquired from the competition for land in consequence of its scarcity and the earth hunger; and he said the tenant had a property in both those things. Those were the expressions used by the right hon. Gentleman; but, if the statement be correct, when was that property conferred? Was it given by the Act of 1870, or was it an original possession of the tenant restored to him by that Act, or is it something that has grown up since the passing of the Act? Sometimes we are told, although when the Act of 1870 was passed we were led to believe the contrary, that even if we were not aware of it, we were by that legislation actually giving this property to the tenant. I must say that greatly shakes our confidence as to the way in which we are now asked to proceed. For we may again be giving something more than we are aware of, and may not find it out till too late. I will not at this late hour detain the House by going into the other parts of the Bill; but there is one important point about which I wish to say a word or two, and that is the constitution of the Commission which is to be the great tribunal erected by the Bill. We have had as yet no real discussion upon the nature of that Commission, and it does

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