| seem to me, that, looking to the enor portant Bills have been brought in, and mous extent of its functions and the where some portions of the Bill that were work to be performed by it, we ought to considered the most popular and the have had, at an early period of the dis- most important were dropped as the cussion, a much more complete defini- Bill proceeded through Committee, and tion of its powers than we have at pre- thrown over either for want of time, or sent. It is not a mere Commission which upon some other grounds. I am afraid is to act as a judicial tribunal. It is not we shall have something of that kind in that which most of us, I believe, would connection with the present measure. I be perfectly willing to agree to-some- am afraid, if we go into Committee thing in the nature of a tribunal that without an understanding, we shall find might assist in arbitrating in cases of ourselves fighting hard over some of the difficulty with regard to rents. I am earlier clauses in trying to settle the renot at all indisposed to examine pro-lations of tenants and landlords; and posals that may go to the introduction that when we come to the 5th part of of a system by which an appeal could be the Bill, and consider what are really made in the case of fixing rents, espe- its beneficial portions-those relating cially in the case of the smaller tenants to emigration, the reclamation of waste who are unable to take care of them-lands, the planting of a tenant proprieselves. But the Commission proposed in this Bill goes a great deal beyond that. It is something in the nature of those commissions of liquidation which are occasionally appointed to settle and wind up complicated estates in bankruptcy. Some of these special powers, which are now given to the Commission, seem to have been copied bodily from those which were given to arbitrators in the case of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company. There are powers given by the provisions of the Bill to the Commission of the most extensive character; and it looks as if, not only those poor people of whom the hon. Member for Cork City has spoken, but the whole of the people of Ireland, were to be put into the hands of the Commission. That would be a most serious state of things to establish. You are going to bring about a revolution in the country, and its regulation is to be entrusted to a Commission of whose composition and powers we do not, at the present time, know anything. I may point out, with regard to these matters, that it would be very well worth while if we were allowed to discuss some of these important parts of the Bill before we discuss that which is regarded as less vital. It would be, I think, of very great advantage to us if we could make sure as to the composition of this Commission; and it would be also of great advantage if we were able to make sure of the 5th part of the Bill, which relates to what we consider to be a very material portion of the proposed measures. We know there have been cases in former times in which large and im tary on the soil, and other matters such as all of us regard as important for the development of the resources of land in Ireland-I say, I fear we may be told that these matters are too big to be taken up in connection with this Bill, and that the part of the measure for which many of us would have been ready to vote on the second reading will be laid aside. Sir, I wish to explain what is the position of the Conservative Party generally with regard to this question. I do not know whether I need take that trouble, because, a few days ago, the Prime Minister, who likes to play his opponent's game as well as his own, was good enough to tell us how we ought to move all our pieces, and also to explain what he thought of the policy we were pursuing. However, so far as I can myself offer any contribution towards throwing light upon our proceedings, I will point out to the House exactly how we stand in the matter. We have never denied, and we never shall deny, that it is a very proper and desirable thing to legislate upon these questions. We are perfectly ready to enter into the discussion of questions of the character of those to which our attention has been invited; and, as my right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Plunket) said no. longer ago than last night at Bristol, the Conservative Party, before they saw this Bill, did look forward with hope to its being something of a character which they would be able to support. [Laughter.] That statement seems to amuse hon. Gentlemen opposite; and I have no doubt. that the standpoint from which some of them approach this question is one [Eighth Night.] which has more of a political and Party character about it than anything else. No doubt, some hon. Members opposite prefer that position to the more solid grounds upon which it might be possible to deal with this question. But that is not our view. We have looked into this Bill, and we have taken some little time to consider what course we ought to pursue. We came to the conclusion that the Bill, as it stood, involved and contained within itself principles of such intrinsic injustice, and principles which appeared to us to be so exceedingly open to objection on economical grounds, that we could not conscientiously accept it, or give it our fiat by voting for the second reading. On the other hand, we were not disposed to take up a position of blank resistance and say-"We will have nothing to do with the Bill, but will do our best to throw it out." We thought it proper to express in a Resolution what our views were with regard to the policy to be pursued towards Ireland. That policy is to be found in the Resolution of which Notice has been given by my noble Friend the Member for North Leicestershire (Lord John Manners). The Resolution runs thus "That this House, while anxious to maintain and secure in full efficiency the customs of Ulster and other analogous customs in Ireland, and to remedy any proved defects in the Land Act of 1870, is disposed to seek for the social and material improvement of that country by measures for the development of its industrial resources rather than by a measure which confuses, without settling on a just and permanent basis, the relations of landlord and tenant." ["Oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen opposite who cry "Oh!" would seem to hate landlords more than they love Ireland. It would appear to be their contention that nothing can be done in the way of improvement for Ireland by measures for the development of her industrial resources, and that it is impossible that any injustice or any mischief can arise from measures which we think we see in the Bill before us-measures for upsetting and entirely confusing the relations between landlords and tenants in Ireland. However that may be, I have expressed the views we hold, and we are prepared to stand by the policy which we have announced in the words of my noble Friend, although we are not able, on Parliamentary conditions, to move it in the form of a Resolution contradictory to Sir Stafford Northcote the issue before the House. My noble Friend the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) stands first with an Amendment, with regard to which we admit entirely the justice and literal truth of the language employed. It is perfectly true that there are many things in the Bill which we must consider objectionable on the grounds of justice and economy. That, however, is not the way in which we ourselves should prefer to meet the question. But, having to meet it, we are reduced to the alternative of considering whether we shall vote for the words standing part of the Question-"That the Bill be now read a second time" or whether we shall vote against them. It would be absolutely impossible for us, feeling as we do with regard to the character of this Bill, to vote in favour of the words standing part of the Question, because that would seem to imply that we were insensible to the very objectionable principles contained in the measure before us; and we know perfectly well how a vote of that sort would be used by a disingenuous opponent, who would take care to draw from it inferences which he would well know how to apply. On the other hand, it is said we can abstain from voting; but that cannot be. To abstain from voting would be unworthy of us. We feel, therefore, that it is our duty to vote, in the first instance, for the Amendment of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire, with the reservation that if we could ourselves substitute a Resolution of our own for that which he proposes, we should adopt that of my noble Friend the Member for North Leicestershire. I hope the House, in the decision it may take to-night, will bear in mind that this is but a preliminary discussion as to the consideration of the Bill in its future stages. If the Bill goes into Committee, we shall do our very best to clear up those points which appear to us to be doubtful, to eliminate those proposals which appear to us to be contrary to justice, and to maintain and strengthen those points which appear to us to be really calculated for the benefit of Ireland. I am quite certain of this-that, at the present moment, there is a great deal that depends on the course that this Bill may take; and it is not by shutting our eyes to the facts, not by thinking that everything is pleasant of Ireland, that we take our stand against many of the provisions of this Bill. because it is convenient to you to make it pleasant, that you will get out of the difficulty in which the country finds THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON : itself. We have had a fair note of Mr. Speaker, I regret extremely that this warning from the hon. Member for the long debate could not be concluded by the City of Cork to-night. We are perfectly speech of my right hon. Friend the First well aware of the view that he and those Lord of the Treasury, which was, I am who act with him take. We know sorry to say, delivered last Monday to a how great their influence has been in House far less full than the present one; Ireland; and we know very well how and I can assure the House that, at this great has been their influence on the hour of the night, I have no intention of Benches opposite. We ourselves will attempting to fulfil the duty which has not shrink from doing that which we fallen upon my right hon. Friend the believe to be our duty. We will not be Prime Minister of winding up this dedeterred by any menaces or alarms that bate. I will endeavour to occupy the may be held out as to something dread- House for a very short time; and I hope ful that may happen if we venture to they will allow me, before going to a make any Amendments to these pro- division, to make one or two observaposals. We will do that which we feel tions on the attitude assumed on this to be our duty; and we do it not in the measure by the two Parties who sit interests of one particular class. We do opposite. A position has been taken by not come forward and say merely be- the Gentlemen who sit immediately opcause this Bill involves the confiscation posite to us which has been a subject of of the property of landlords-which it some surprise, and I cannot say it has does-and because it affords no com- been fully cleared up by the explanation pensation-which it does not, and is, which has just been given. We quite untherefore, unjust-we do not say simply derstand that the right hon. Gentleman on these grounds we object to the Bill; and his Friends should wish to take some for, if that were all, you might cure it by time for the consideration of what course offering compensation, and by measures they should adopt in regard to this Bill; which would somewhat take off from and, although the right hon. and learned the severity of the confiscation. But Gentleman the Member for the Univerwe say we are perfectly convinced that sity of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) seemed to legislation such as this-and especially have made up his mind pretty well on legislation won and wrung from you, as the first night of the debate on the this has been, by the agitation of which second reading, and delivered a most unthe country has been for so many months compromising denunciation of the Bill, the scene we say that such legislation we, perhaps, have no right to wonder that is calculated to inflict an evil on the no distinct step was taken on the part whole of Ireland, and on the whole of of the Opposition on that occasion. But the Empire, quite above and far exceed- when, after the speech of the noble Lord ing any class interest you could imagine the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord to be injured by the provisions of the Elcho), he sat down without being able, Bill. You will be teaching the people on account of the Forms of the House, the lesson backwards-instead of teach- to move any Amendment, and when, ing them that they should rely on their subsequently, the obstacle in the way own energies, and be prepared by their of moving a further Amendment was own energies, and by hard work, and withdrawn, right hon. Gentlemen oppoby self-denial, to work out a better po-site did not even then seem very anxious sition either in Ireland or in some other to step into the gap, but allowed the country. You will be teaching them to noble Lord, two or three nights after look exclusively to the Government, to his speech had been delivered, to get the Commission-to anybody rather than up and step into the vacant place and themselves-and you will be teaching move his Amendment. Although the them to consider that when they are in right hon. Gentleman has not shown difficulties there is a simpler course than quite the alacrity which we might have work, and that is agitation. It is with expected from some of his speeches, it the object of protesting against, and, as does not appear to me to signify very far as possible averting, that mischief much whether hon. Gentlemen opposite which we believe would fall on the whole vote for the Amendment of the noble [Eighth Night.] Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire | own Party. I wish to ask the House (Lord Elcho), or for the Amendment of whether that position on the part of a the noble Lord the Member for North great Party, and in regard to such a Leicestershire (Lord John Manners). measure and such a question as this, is Everyone knows that an Amendment, in either a dignified or a useful position? whatever terms it may be couched, moved I conceive that on such a question and on the second reading of a Bill is on such a measure every Member of the virtually and essentially a Motion for House is bound-and more especially the rejection of the Bill. And in voting the Leaders of a great Constitutional for the Amendment of the noble Lord Party-to have an opinion of their own, the Member for North Leicestershire, if and that they are bound to vote as if they had done so, not less than in voting the fate of the Bill depended upon that for the Amendment of the noble Lord vote. The right hon. Gentleman has the Member for Haddingtonshire, they told us that he regrets having to give a would vote for the rejection and destruc- vote against the Bill, and he looks fortion of this Bill. That decision seemed, ward to Amendments. I do not confrom the speech we have just heard, to sider that the speech we have just heard have been arrived at not without some is one which indicates in the slightest deliberation. It seems somewhat incon- degree that if the right hon. Gentleman sistent with some opinions we have had the power of rejecting the Bill, he heard from the Front Opposition Bench would take the responsibility of exercison former occasions, and even this even- ing that power. If hon. Gentlemen ing. The hon. Member for North-West opposite think that no change is reLancashire, speaking the other night, quired; if they agree with the terms of said that when the details of the Bill the Amendment of the noble Lord the came to be considered in Committee, it Member for North Leicestershire that all would be subjected to the same tem- that is wanted is a development of the perate criticism as had marked the dis- industrial resources of Ireland; if they cussion on the second reading; and the think that the present crisis is to be met right hon. and learned Member for the by loans or gifts--an increase of fishery University of Dublin, speaking last night loans and an increase of the grant for at Bristol, said he thought the Bill would fishery piers-then I think they ought become a moderate and useful measure to reject this Bill. If they think that as it progressed. And I thought I heard the principles of the Bill are unsound; in the closing passages of the speech of if they think with the hon. Member for the right hon. Gentleman just now, Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) and the some expression of the same kind, hon. and learned Member for Preston pointing to a desire on his part to (Sir John Holker), that this Bill is a amend the Bill in Committee. But if Bill of confiscation and spoliation, and the right hon. Gentleman succeeds in that it will lead to other measures of defeating this Bill on the second read- Communism and robbery - if that is ing, how is it to be submitted to this their opinion, then they ought to reject temperate criticism, and how is it to be the Bill, and they ought not to make amended and made a useful measure in excuses for voting against the second Committee? From the language held reading. I can understand the hon. by the hon. and gallant Member for Member for Mid Lincolnshire, after the North-West Lancashire (Colonel Stan- eloquent and able denunciation of the ley), and the right hon. and learned legislation of 1870, and of the proposed Member for the University of Dublin legislation of 1881, which we have heard (Mr. Gibson), and the Leader of the this evening-I can understand him, Opposition himself, I can come to no and can believe that he does vote with other conclusion that they do not with all his heart and soul for the rejection their whole hearts support this Motion of the Bill, and that if the fate of the for the rejection of this Bill. They do Bill depended upon his vote, that vote not wish the Amendment to be carried; would be given for the rejection. and it is only a step they are supporting what reasons have we heard from the for the purpose of relieving themselves right hon. Gentleman who has just sat from some responsibility for the Bill, down for rejecting the Bill? He said and perhaps to satisfy some of the he would not go into details; but it aprather more ardent Members of their peared to me that almost the whole of The Marquess of Hartington But his speech consisted of criticisms of de- | forward on the discussion in Committee tails. He is not going to reject the as allies and fellow-workers, at all events, Bill because he is satisfied, I suppose, in the same cause; and there are many with the meaning of tenancy; or because Amendments which they could have of a difference of opinion between him- brought forward, and which would have self and the right hon. Gentleman be- been entitled to respectful, and possibly hind me as to the unearned increment; favourable, consideration. But what or because he objects to the order in view must we take of Amendments which the parts of the Bill are arranged. which are brought forward in ComHe said he could not vote for the Bill mittee by hon. Members who have because it contained the principle of announced themselves, by their oppointrinsic injustice; but, having spent a sition to the principle of the Bill, great deal of time in the discussion of opponents and enemies of the Bill? details, I did not hear him make any Every Amendment brought forward undistinct declaration as to what the prin- der such circumstances must be looked ciple of intrinsic injustice is. [Sir STAF-at by the friends of the Bill with doubt FORD NORTHCOTE: I spoke of confisca- and suspicion. The hon. Member for tion.] The right hon. Gentleman did the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) does not not say what were the provisions of the intend to vote for the second reading. Bill which involved confiscation. He The right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford did not spend nearly so much time on Northcote) is going to oppose the second his ideas as to confiscation as on the reading; but it is more clear and much definition of tenancy and other parts. easier to understand why the hon. MemIf, on the other hand, they consider that ber for the City of Cork should wish to some change is necessary; if they do defeat the Bill or, at all events, to be not agree with the terms of the Amend- indifferent to its success. The hon. ments of the noble Lord the Member Member has on various occasions indifor Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) and cated what the policy of the Land the noble Lord the Member for North League is. He has repeated it to-night. Leicestershire (Lord John Manners); if His policy I have always conceived to they consider that some change is neces- be the total expropriation of the landsary, but that we are setting about the lords of Ireland, accompanied by more change in the wrong way, then, again, it or less compensation for that expropriais their duty to reject the Bill, and, at tion. The hon. Member has told us tothe same time, to indicate in what di- night that he is not in favour of the exprorection they consider the change ought priation of all landlords, but that he is to be made. If, however, they think, in favour of the power being given to as I believe some of them do, that the expropriate all landlords; and I can see principles of the Bill are, in the main, that the position of those who are not just and sound, but that they are pushed expropriated will not be one of any too far, or that they are unskilfully ap-great security. Then the hon. Member plied, then it would be their duty, in proposes to substitute for the landlords my opinion, to accept the second read-occupying proprietors; and he would do ing of the Bill, pointing out in what this, not by a voluntary, but by a comway they think the Bill is capable of pulsory process. What are the means amendment, and to devote their ener- by which he intends to accomplish this obgies to Amendments in Committee. For ject? He intends, as far as is in his and these reasons, I think the course they his Friends' power, to deprive the landare taking is not extremely dignified; lords now and hereafter of their means and I venture to doubt whether it is a of subsistence; he intends to embitter very useful course. They indicate plainly the relations between landlord and tenenough that they expect the second read-ant; and he intends, as far as he can, to ing to pass; and they are going to turn their attention to Amendments in Committee. Well, Sir, are they, by opposing the second reading, taking the best course to enable them to amend the Bill in Committee? If they had supported or acquiesced in the second reading, they would have had a right to come make the landlords' existence intolerable, until they will be willing to accept any terms offered them. Naturally, no Bill, the object of which is to improve the relations between landlord and tenant; no Bill, which is intended to restrain the abuse of a system which he wishes entirely to get rid of-no such Bill as [Eighth Night.] |