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aware of the existence of that individual. I ever he comes to the ground of fact he If I have read his evidence in the Re- treads upon very dangerous ground. I port of the Commission I have forgotten heard him make many assertions to him; but there is one statement with day; but all his reproaches I will pass which I think it my duty to grapple. by with the single observation that He complains that during the debate on while he accused my right hon. Friend the Protection of Person and Property or me of being arbitrary and capricious, (Ireland) Bill we said it was aimed only he also accused him, because of the exat the perpetrators and abettors of out- tremn paucity of arrests made under the rage, and that we have now arrested a Coercion Bill, of having deprived that Roman Catholic priest for supporting measure of all nerve and strength, and the operations of the Land League, sacrificed the object for which it was which we had entirely disclaimed as the passed. But the noble Lord spoke on object of the Bill. He is perfectly cor- two points with regard to the hon. rect in his reference to the description Member for Tipperary, now, unfortu given by Her Majesty's Government of nately, under confinement. The noble the objects of the Bill. We did say that Lord said that the whole of the speeches the Bill was not aimed at the Land of the hon. Member for Tipperary were League, as such; we did say that it was identical in their tone and spirit. Well, not aimed at the popular agitation, in Sir, if that is to be considered as a the general sense of the word; we did matter of opinion from the noble Lord, say that it was aimed at the abettors and we claim the right of holding the oppoperpetrators of outrage; and I am en- site opinion; but if it is to be stated by titled to say that we have not arrested him as a matter of fact, we, as a matter anyone, priest or layman, for being a of fact, respectfully deny it. All his member or supporter of the Land League, speeches have been carefully considered or for taking part in the popular agita- by persons who are, I apprehend, quite tion, even though we may have thought as competent to measure their legal that the popular agitation went, in cer- bearing and significance as the noble tain respects, far beyond the limits of Lord. Perhaps I may go so far as to safety and of justice. I simply place my say that the Law Advisers of the Crown unproved assertion on that subject are even more competent than the noble against the unproved assertion of the Lord to measure the legal bearings of hon. Gentleman. But, Sir, I must say the hon. Member's speeches. [Lord that, although the Gentlemen coming RANDOLPH CHURCHILL dissented.] The from Ireland, not unnaturally, are led noble Lord announces by a shake of his in their position to deal in assertions head that he is more competent to judge that are somewhat hasty and reckless, of the legal bearings of the speeches of they are far transcended and surpassed Mr. Dillon; but, perhaps, I had better by their single English ally, the noble leave the noble Lord as Sir John Moore Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord was left-" alone in his glory "-if it Randolph Churchill). As long as the is the opinion which he entertains of noble Lord deals with matters of opinion his own capacity in matters of law. he is perfectly safe, because he has no- Passing from that assertion of the noble thing to do but to heap upon the Go-Lord, I come to another which is still vernment all the vilifying epithets he can command; to impute to each of their actions the very worst motive he can discover, and to serve up a highlyseasoned repast for the intellectual palate of his audience; and by this means I admit it is impossible for us to contend against a mind so judicial, against one who is so very careful and scrupulous in the language that he uses, and in the alliances he endeavours to establish by his Parliamentary procedure in this House. But, Sir, if the noble Lord will accept counsel from me, he will avoid coming to the ground of fact. When

Mr. Gladstone

more in the nature of an opinion, and still less of the nature of a matter of fact. He said that we allowed Mr. Dillon, the Member for Tipperary, to make his speeches as long as he was merely touring about Ireland; but that when he announced he was coming to London to take part in the discussion on the Land Law (Ireland) Bill, and to make a particular proposition in relation to it, then, seized with apprehension, we interfered and arrested him. Sir, I challenge the noble Lord to prove to me that Mr. Dillon ever did say that he was coming to London. [Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL;

It was a matter of notoriety.] A mat- | saying a word which would tend to ter of notoriety means that it is known weaken the arm of the law, or deprive to all men. Now, Sir, I assert that it of their effect those measures, painful was not known to all men. It may be but needful, that Parliament has passed known to the noble Lord, but it was not for the purpose of establishing peace and known to us. What we know is that order in Ireland. As I shall not have Mr. Dillon, the Member for Tipperary, the privilege of speaking again, nor will made a statement that a certain question my right hon. Friend, on the part of the was going to be raised in the House of Government, with regard to any further Commons, and the only declaration that assertions that may be made, I will enter has been made known to us on that sub- my respectful protest, that we must not ject contains no statement whatever that be understood by our silence to admit in he was on his way to London to make it. whole or in part the correctness of those ["Oh, oh!"] Where is it? Produce assertions. But there is another quesit? If the hon. Member for Cork City tion as to the mode of carrying on these (Mr. Parnell) thinks fit to interrupt me debates. There is a complaint against for an assertion of what is within our the Government because they have not own knowledge-namely, the assertion shown a greater readiness to find time of what came to our knowledge, for I for the discussion of those arrests. The went no further-if he has not patience meaning of that is, that we have not put to let me state what I am cognizant of, off the discussion on the Land Law (Ireand what I am not, I think he is bound land) Bill, which the hon. Member for to produce the evidence upon which he Cork City is trying as far as he can to ventures upon an interruption that, I defeat, nor consented to sacrifice Monmust say, was of a rather discourteous day, a day which is required for discusnature. The only statement known to sion on the subject of taxation. We me, and I believe I am right in stating think we have great interest in having to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secre- the matter of the arrests made the subtary, was a statement that a certain pro-ject of discussion on a specific Motion; posal was going to be made in the House of Commons. It was not a statement that it was going to be made by the hon. Member for Tipperary. [Mr. PARNELL: That was the only inference that could be drawn.] The only inference that could be drawn, and that which the hon. Member for Cork City declares was the only inference that could be drawn, the noble Lord declares to be a matter of fact and of public notoriety. I will leave the noble Lord, in the course of his not unfrequent communications with the hon. Member for the City of Cork, to settle between them which of these versions is the correct one. Sir, I am bound to say, having referred to the noble Lord and the manner in which he thinks it his duty to render assistance to the Executive in the performance of a very difficult task in Ireland, I should not do justice if I did not dwell upon the marked contrast between the conduct of the noble Lord in that respect and the conduct of the whole of the Gentlemen whom I see sitting opposite, and to whose Party the noble Lord belongs. While they may very likely join in many of the condemnations of the noble Lord upon many of the proceedings of the Executive Government in Ireland, they have studiously avoided

and we also think that there has been something like a deliberate avoidance of opportunities on the part of hon. Gentlemen. It may be an inaccurate impression, but we believe we have grounds for the impression, that there is a decided preference on the part of some Gentlemen for these rather rambling and certainly unmeasured debates-unmeasured as to the assertions that are made, and rambing as regards the issue from the spirit of practical discussion we might have on the Motion. The hon. Member for Galway (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) dropped a suggestion the other day to which I should have given an answer at the time if some other Gentleman had not put another question, and the suggestion of the hon. Member for Galway was lost sight of. The hon. Member asked-"Will you propose a Morning Sitting of the House for the purpose of enabling us to have a Motion of complaint regularly lodged against you?" With regard to a Morning Sitting, Her Majesty's Government have recently had some experience. Using such information as we possessed we proposed a Morning Sitting for a particular purpose, believing that it was agreeable to the general feeling of the

House. But we found afterwards that a considerable majority of the House was not disposed to regard it with favour. Therefore, it would not be prudent on my part to place myself in the same position again, until I had received some assurance that the proposal would be agreeable to the majority of the House. All I can say is that if upon the best information it is in our power to obtain we find it would be agreeable to the House, we should not refuse to ask the House on Monday evening to consent to a Morning Sitting on Tuesday. That is the only offer which, in the straitness of time we are under, I can make; and I can only add that we have every desire to forward the views of those Gentlemen who wish to challenge the conduct of the Government on this subject.

the whole of their action in this matter. we desire in no way whatever to embarrass or to weaken their hands in the discharge of their most painful and most responsible duties. I rise, not in order to make any general observations on this subject, but to refer to what I understood the Prime Minister to say with regard to a Morning Sitting. As I understand, he desired that an opportunity might be given for the discussion of the very serious question raised by this and other arrests in a proper and convenient form by appointing a Morning Sitting on Tuesday. If that is the desire of the Government, I think the House ought to support that proposal. The question of the conduct of the responsible Government at such a crisis as this, and in such an important matter, is one which ought not to be left in aberance. It is impossible that hon. Gentlemen from Ireland should take every opportunity, regular or irregular, for the discussion of this question; and they must feel that the only true and satisfactory way in which it can be discussed is by a regular Motion. We quite understand that it would be difficult for the Government to give a Government night for the purpose; and I think, though I reserve my opinion as to the proper times and seasons for Morning Sittings generally, that the best course is to appoint a Morning Sitting. If Tuesday morning is convenient, I have no doubt that the great body of the House would accede to that suggestion. I hope, if it is generally understand that that course will be adopted, that it will not be thought necessary to prolong this dis

MR. CHARLES RUSSELL observed, that the House was discussing the case without an accurate knowledge of the facts, and without the possibility of arriving at any practical result. He was glad, therefore, that the Prime Minister was disposed to give an early day for the consideration of the arrests under the Coercion Act. The whole subject was extremely important; but the arrest of a man like Mr. Sheehy was a peculiarly grave act, and one that might have very serious consequences on the public peace in Ireland." He claimed no immunity for any body of persons, lay or clerical, from arrest if they brought themselves within the law; but in the case of a Catholic priest in Ireland only the gravest reasons could justify his arrest, and when the Government had thought it right to make such an arrest they were bound to come pre-cussion. pared at the earliest possible moment to state to the House fully and fairly the grounds of that arrest. In many parts of Ireland the voice of the Catholic priest was the only free voice that could be raised against the oppression of the people. When he asked the Government to state the grounds on which they had acted, he did not demand a mere technical compliance with the letter of the Coercion Act, but a full and fair statement of the reasons for which Mr. Sheehy had been arrested.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: The Prime Minister has rightly interpreted the silence we have observed during this discussion. While we must hold the Government entirely responsible for

Mr. Gladstone

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR justified the course taken in moving the adjournment of the House on the ground that it would have been impossible to raise the question of the Irish arrests in any other way. He put it to the English and the Scotch Members whether, if the Constitution were suspended in their countries in order that innocent persons might be arrested under lettres de cachet, they would not have done the same thing? The right hon. Gentleman, who consulted solely the convenience of the Government in all his Parliamentary arrangements, had given no facilities for the Motion of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy). When the Bradlaugh question was before the

MR. SPEAKER said, that only Orders of the Day were usually taken at a Morning Sitting; but, according to the decision of the House arrived at not long ago, the difficulty might be got over by a Motion being introduced on the preceding evening, and then made an Order of the Day for the following day.

House, the right hon. Gentleman had the Coercion Act was directed against proposed a Morning Sitting; but as soon the village tyrant and the village rufas the Leader of the Opposition had fian; that it was intended to put a stop extricated the Government from their to outrage. It had, however, been used difficulty, Northampton became as un- for arresting the most respectable people interesting to the right hon. Gentleman in Ireland, Poor Law Guardians, memas Tipperary. In the meantime, excel-bers of the representative Bodies, until lent men were arrested on so-called they had made Kilmainham Gaol a place "reasonable suspicion; " but if there was to which it was perfectly accurate to say one man more responsible than another the love and confidence of the people of for outrage, disturbance, and discontent, Ireland turned. He (Mr. Sexton) was it was the right hon. Gentleman him- sorry to say that the Prime Minister's self, who, by limiting the scope of the references to the speech in which his Compensation for Disturbance Bill of hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary last year to disturbed districts, had prac- (Mr. Dillon) announced his intention to tically induced the more peaceable coun- bring the question of evictions under ties to qualify for the extension of its the notice of the House did more credit operation. However, with regard to the to the ingenuity of the right hon. Genproposed Morning Sitting on Tuesday, tleman than it did to his candour. He he asked for information on a point of (Mr. Sexton) was present at the meetOrder, and desired to know whether it ing in Dublin at which the Member for was possible at a Morning Sitting to Tipperary spoke, and the universal improceed by Notice of Motion without pression was that his hon. Friend insuspending the Standing Orders of the tended to come over here and to raise House? the question of evictions on the floor of the House. When his hon. Friend was arrested, public opinion in Ireland wavered between two conclusions as to the reasons which dictated his arrest. One conclusion was that it was an act of Parliamentary policy, and that the Government thought that was a convenient way of getting rid of a troublesome opponent. The other was that in the speech which immediately preceded his arrest he had the temerity to make personal reference to the two right hon. Gentlemen who had taken part in the debate. People in Ireland said that a man might go far in discussing general principles; but that when he made reference to the right hon. Gentlemen who occupied the Treasury Bench, he had better look out for his liberty. He did not know whether the Government, before ordering or sanctioning the arrest of Father Sheehy, had taken the trouble to consider for a moment the intense, the intimate, and sacred nature of the ties that existed between the priests and the people in Ireland; but he thought that even from motives of statesmanship they might very well have considered these ties, and might have considered also that the act which they had done in arresting Father Sheehy was an act the like of which had not been done within human memory in Ireland. English statesmen knew very well that Irish priests had often exposed themselves to

MR. SEXTON said, the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister talked of rambling; but his own speech wandered considerably, for he had not even told them why the Catholic clergyman was arrested. If the proposed Morning Sitting were to be of any value for the purpose for which it was designed, the request of the hon. and learned Member for Dundalk (Mr. C. Russell) ought to be complied with. What were they to discuss at the Morning Sitting? Arrests which were shrouded in an impenetrable veil of secrecy. The Government ought to communicate to the House the language or the acts they imputed to the men arrested in Ireland, and hon. Gentlemen could then proceed to discuss that language and those acts. As it was, not even the persons who were most interested knew anything of the causes that led to them. The Government first took away all liberty in Ireland, then stifled discussion, thus denying to the people all mode of examining into the exercise of despotic power. The House was told two months ago that