Mr. PECORA. You don't even know whether it was a million or more?

Mr. HARRIS. I will be very glad to get those figures for you, Mr. Pecora, but I cannot guess at them now, because, as I said before, my memory is not accurate, and I would not want to make statements that would be all out of line.

Mr. PECORA. I am not expecting you from memory to tell us the figures accurately. I would like to get the closest degree of approximation to the figure that your memory will enable you to give us. Mr. HARRIS. I am sorry. I cannot give you any.

Mr. PECORA. Cannot give us any at all on that?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir. I look at a great many statements in my business, of various concerns.

Mr. PECORA. I am just talking now about the stock exchange.
Mr. HARRIS. Exactly.

Mr. PECORA. Of which you are one of the governors.

Mr. HARRIS. And that is one of the reasons why I cannot remember these figures, because I see so many statements.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall what the expenses reported by the treasurer were?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Mr. PECORA. Not even approximately?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Mr. PECORA. You do not know whether it was in the millions of dollars or less than a million?

Mr. HARRIS. The stock exchange is a large institution. It was a sizable amount of money, but I cannot guess.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall what it was for the year 1932?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been any recent sale of a seat on the stock exchange?

Mr. HARRIS. Do I remember the last sale?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. I think I do, but I may be in error. I think I know the price of the last seat, but I am not certain of it.

The CHAIRMAN. State what your best recollection is.

Mr. HARRIS. My best recollection is $190,000.

Mr. PECORA. As one of the governors of the stock exchange, Mr. Harris, can you give the reason underlying this policy of not giving annual report of income and disbursements to the members of the stock exchange themselves?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir; I cannot. I am not a member of the finance committee and I do not know the policy.

Mr. PECORA. Can you think of any good reason why that information should not be given to the members of the exchange as a matter of routine?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I have never thought a great deal about the matter, but I repeat that I think if any member of the stock exchange will go to the president he would be very glad to discuss the matter with him and give him figures.

Mr. PECORA. You have no experience of any kind that prompts that statement, have you?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Mr. PECORA. So it is merely an assumption by you not based upon any actual fact within your knowledge where a member not a member of the finance committee or the governing committee went to the president or the treasurer and got a statement of the income and disbursements of the exchange for any year?

Mr. HARRIS. No; excepting that I know that the general policy of the president has always been to be perfectly open with all members. Mr. PECORA. Why isn't that policy effectuated so far as giving the member's statement of income and disbursements in an annual report or in the yearbook?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not know, Mr. Pecora. Maybe the members have no interest in it.

Mr. PECORA. Is that the best reason you can give, that maybe the members have no interest in knowing how much their institution receives and how much it spends and how it spends it?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes; I cannot give you any reasons for it.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall the principal items of disbursements that the treasurer presented in the report which you heard read last month?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, Mr. Pecora; I do not remember that report. Mr. PECORA. Was the report of slight consequence to you, that you do not remember a single detail about it?

Mr. HARRIS. No; it was not of slight-it was of importance, but I see no reason why I should burden my mind with details like that over a time.

Mr. PECORA. Do you remember any detail of that report at all?
Mr. HARRIS. None at all.

Mr. PECORA. Was it a written report?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. Did it state the sources of income as well as the respective amounts received from those sources?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir; it was a full financial report.

Mr. PECORA. What were the sources of income that were in the report?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, the usual sources of income.

Mr. PECORA. What are they-not the usual?

Mr. HARRIS. There are a great many of them, of course. Various items from the committee on arrangements, such as telephone space on the floor of the exchange, leased wires, telephone clerk badges on the floor, various receipts from the medical department, transfers of memberships, tax thereon, the income from the listing of securities. I cannot remember all the details, Mr. Pecora.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall what the principal items of disbursements were?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall whether the report showed a deficit. or a surplus for the year 1933 ?

Mr. HARRIS. It showed a deficit.

Mr. PECORA. Of how much?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not remember.

Mr. PECORA. Was it a substantial deficit?

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Pecora, I cannot remember those figures; I would like to, and I will be glad to get them and send them to you.

Mr. PECORA. When could you get them?

Mr. REDMOND. I can arrange to send to New York and get it, Mr. Pecora, if the committee feels that it is necessary to put it into the record. Those are figures that have never been publicly disclosed.

Mr. PECORA. Why have they never been publicly disclosed? Mr. Harris cannot give us any reason, so far as he knows.

Mr. REDMOND. The constitution, Mr. Pecora, the very provision that you read, provides that that financial statement shall be rendered to the governing committee and to the finance committee.

Mr. PECORA. I read that.

Mr. REDMOND. But it does not provide that it shall be sent to the members.

Mr. PECORA. I know that. I am trying to find out the reason for that.

Mr. REDMOND. Because it is the provision of the constitution, which is the contract adopted by the members themselves. They themselves by adopting the constitution have agreed that they will not receive financial statements.

Mr. PECORA. Have agreed that they will not receive financial statements?

Mr. REDMOND. That is it.

Mr. PECORA. That is your interpretation of the reason, is it, why that provision is in the constitution?

Mr. REDMOND. It is a contract, Mr. Pecora, and the members having agreed to that provision, are not in a position to demand financial statement. That is their own agreement.

Mr. PECORA. But what is the policy that underlies this provision in the constitution, if you can tell us that?

Mr. REDMOND. I think it has been in the constitution-well, proba. bly 50 or 60 years.

Mr. PECORA. But what is the policy underlying it?

Mr. REDMOND. I do not know what policy actuated the original members of the exchange to adopt that provision in the constitution, Mr. Pecora, because I was not alive, probably.

Mr. PECORA. Do you know of any good reason now, Mr. Redmond, why that information is not given as a matter of right to the membership of the stock exchange annually?

Mr. REDMOND. As Mr. Harris said, he felt that it would be given to any member who inquired.

Mr. PECORA. That does not answer the question. Mr. Harris also said that he never knew of a member that went to the president and got the information.

Mr. REDMOND. You asked him whether he had ever had the experience, Mr. Pecora.

Mr. PECORA. Whether he ever had any experience.

Mr. REDMOND. That does not mean whether he ever knew of any other member doing that.

Mr. PECORA. Do you know, Mr. Harris, whether any member ever went to the president and asked for this information and got it? Mr. HARRIS. I think I know of a case; yes.

Mr. PECORA. What was that case and when did it arise?

Mr. HARRIS. This man spoke to me about it. I am not positive if he went or not.

Mr. PECORA. Oh, then do not tell us if you are not positive if he went or not. Let us have no guess about it.

Are you going to get that for us tomorrow?

Mr. REDMOND. I will send to New York and get and it will probably be down by tomorrow morning, Mr. Pecora.

The CHAIRMAN. Seats on the exchange have sold how much higher than the present price?

Mr. HARRIS. The highest they ever sold, I believe, was $625,000. The CHAIRMAN. How long ago was that?

Mr. HARRIS. 1928, I think.

Mr. PECORA, Mr. Harris, I show you a document, very voluminous in form, entitled:

Answers submitted by the New York Stock Exchange to the questions asked of it by counsel for the United States Senate Committee on Banking and Currency (such questions being in the form agreed to in conferences with members of the staff of the counsel to the committee, and the representatives of the Exchange in conferences held in New York City on Oct. 10 and 11).

Will you look at it and tell me if you are able to identify it as the original answers submitted by the New York Stock Exchange to the questions referred to?

(Mr. Redmond and Mr. Harris compared two documents.) Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. I offer it in evidence, but, Mr. Chairman, in view of its voluminous character, ask that it be not spread on the stenographic minutes but be ordered printed in the printed copies of the hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. Let it be admitted.

(Document entitled "Answers Submitted by the New York Stock Exchange to the Questions Asked of It by Counsel for the United States Senate Committee on Banking and Currency" was thereupon designated "Committee Exhibit No. 113, February 26, 1934 ", and the same appears in full in the printed record at the end of today's proceedings.)

Mr. PECORA. Mr. Chairman, I have before me a communication which was received by me as counsel for the committee from the president of the San Francisco Mining Exchange in response to a request that was addressed to them in behalf of the committee. I want to offer it in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. Let it be admitted.

(Letter dated Nov. 27, 1933, from Charles E. Hudson, president San Francisco Mining Exchange, to Ferdinand Pecora, together with accompanying data, was thereupon designated "Committee Exhibit No. 114, February 26, 1934." The letter appears in the record in full immediately following where read by Mr. Pecora. The accompanying data appears in the printed record at the end of today's proceedings.)

Mr. PECORA. The document has been received in evidence as Committee Exhibit No. 114, and I would like to read the covering letter. It is on the letterhead of the San Francisco Mining Exchange, 327 Bush Street, San Francisco. [Reading:]

Mr. FERDINAND PECORA,

NOVEMBER 29, 1933.

Counsel, Committee on Banking and Currency,

285 Madison Avenue, New York City.

DEAR SIR: Complying with your request we are enclosing herewith today's quotation sheet which gives the bids and offers and sales of stock listed in this exchange, together with the names and addresses of the members of the exchange.

In this connection, I wish to remark that our exchange may be termed a white chip trading rendezvous for stock. Mining and oil stocks are necessarily of a speculative character, and we do not attempt to make the public think they are anything else. A hole in the ground today may be a mine of value tomorrow, and the mine of immense development may run out of its ore and be a tremendous hole in the ground the next day. Our stocks, for that reason, as I said before, are speculative and do not have the immense quantity of water that many of the industrial stocks contain. The fact is, we have to supply water from the desert area while the industrials are usually organized by promoters and supplied with water with great hydraulic pumps from the Atlantic Ocean.

If we can be of further service, we are at your command.
Yours very truly,

(Signed) CHARLES E. HUDSON, President.

P.S.—The bankers generally don't help us, because our activities interfere with their game.

[Laughter.]

Is there any statement you want to make, Mr. Harris, to the committee, or any information you want to give to it, without the necessity of being specifically questioned thereon?

Mr. HARRIS. There is just one thing I would like to take up, Mr. Pecora.

Mr. PECORA. All right.

Mr. HARRIS. Friday, when I was here, I saw afterward in the press a report to the effect that the committee on publicity had spent a million dollars in the past 5 years. That is not quite accurate. The committee on publicity spent $794,174.19, of which $228,150.44 was salaries and wages, leaving a total of $566,043.75, which is a little in excess of $100,000 a year for 5 years spent by the committee on publicity. That includes all documents of every sort that they sent out, all their printed matter.

Mr. PECORA. Does not the figure of a million dollars approximately for the last 5 years include the disbursements and expenses of the economist's office, the economist of the stock exchange? Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. And were given to us on the tabulation that was put in evidence here on Friday relating to those expenditures? Mr. HARRIS. Yes, but I

Mr. PECORA (interposing). Given to us by the stock exchange? Mr. REDMOND. In answer to the questionnaire that required that the two be combined.

Mr. PECORA. We gave the figures, as I recall it, last Friday on the record as shown in that recapitulation both for the committee on publicity and the economist's office.

Mr. REDMOND. I think also the statement was made on the record, Mr. Pecora, that the exchange had expended more than a million dollars on publicity. That, of course, overlooks the fact that the economist's department is a purely statistical department engaged in collection of statistics and is not in any sense publicity work of