we could get along with approximately 15,000 men a month for this

year.

Senator SMITH. Additional?

Admiral PALMER. Yes; and that we would not have to go to the draft organization and machinery to get those men, if it can be arranged with the Army to get them in the same way we have obtained them all along. That is, they have allowed those men who wish to go into the Navy to enroll in our recruiting offices. The CHAIRMAN. Within the draft age?

Admiral PALMER. Within the draft age. We would have to have a very complete organization and go over the names of all of the men who are within the draft age if it were necessary for the Navy to select the men in that way. We now select them on their own application after we size them up from the point of view of the qualifications that are needed, and we do not have to have big machinery to handle the job.

The CHAIRMAN. The machinery is practically furnished by the War Department?

Admiral PALMER. It would be, because the War Department has furnished the machinery for men for their service; but we would have to go into all of the qualifications of these people, because our naval service requires a different type of men-men who wish the sea training, who have special qualifications along those lines. We would not want to take, say, a thousand men, just the average 1,000, and put them in the Navy.

Senator KIRBY. Do you not take everyone who enlists down there who is physically fit?

Admiral PALMER. Provided they have qualifications along the lines that we desire. We are out mostly for men who have had training along mechanical lines.

Senator KIRBY. Could you not ask for that kind of men from the War Department?

Admiral PALMER. We could ask for that kind of men, but we would have to go and look up their records ourselves and get them. It is much easier to handle it in the way we have handled it, in full accord with the War Department, as has been done so far. The Army has barred class 1A from enlisting in the Navy for two months, because, I understand, they are behind in the men they need for the two months' quotas, but there was no trouble about Navy enlistments until this ruling was made. We got as many as 45,000 men a month in the last few months, but we will not continue that. have about recruited the bulk of the men that we need, and the men that we need hereafter will be only a drop in the bucket.

We

The CHAIRMAN. Here is the trouble that we are having: Here are men registered, men who were called into the service of the Army, and estimates are made upon that registration and upon the call, and the Army finds its registration lists depleted and its calculations go awry because of the fact that men within the draft age have gone into the Naval Reserve.

Admiral PALMER. That was because there was no arrangement about the number of men that would be required. We have just received a letter from the Secretary of War asking the number of men we would probably require, so that they could make provision.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose that all of the men were to be called for military duty as well as for naval duty-called in the same registration-and all were required to be registered and drafted. In that event your present method would not be changed materially, for then you would call men within the draft ages, but it would place all men on record who are going into the service, either military or naval.

Admiral PALMER. I should think they should all be placed on record, so that the various districts could arrange about their quotas. All that would be necessary would be to say that the Navy for this month would take 15,000 men, and those people would be charged up as part of the draft quotas in their districts. I think that was the only trouble they had for a while-about the arrangement with the draft boards in the various districts; that when men enlisted in the Navy or Marine Corps the draft board had to get another lot of men to fill their quota.

Senator WADSWORTH. It does not work evenly as between the different local districts. Take the 15,000 men per month which the Navy, you say, will need from now on. It could be added together and divided proportionately among all of the districts in the country and the local boards would know just how many men they would have to surrender to the Navy; but as it is now it goes along unevenly and changes from day to day. The local boards report to Washington on Monday and those figures may be completely changed by Thursday.

Admiral PALMER. With the very small number that we will need, 15,000 a month, coming out of the total that the Army would have a month, the Army could easily make provision for the 15.000.

Senator SMITH. But if it piled up on one district or one sectionif a large majority of them came from one district-if they were not evenly distributed all over the country

Senator REED. But is there any possibility of that?

Admiral PALMER. We get our men in the Navy and Naval Reserve from all districts, and they do exactly the same work everywhere. We have men in the Naval Reserve working alongside of men in the Navy on our submarines and our battleships abroad and on our destroyers abroad, and in every kind of work everywhere. There is no distinction at all between them.

Senator SMITH. Have you any considerable number in your Naval Reserve who are not in the service?

Admiral PALMER. We have something like 20,000, but they have been recruited in the last few weeks. The reason for their not being in the service is because of delay in completion of camps. We have barracks for much more than that number now under construction but they have not yet been completed, and these men are being taken in as fast as quarters are completed. They will all be in camps in training very soon.

Senator SMITH. But as fast as you train them you put them actually to work?

Admiral PALMER. Oh, yes.

Senator MCKELLAR. What proportion of those 20,000 are in the draft age?

Admiral PALMER. I should guess about 60 or 70 per cent, because most of the people we get are young men.

Senator SMITH. And when the draft goes down to 18 years they will practically all be within the draft age?

Admiral PALMER. Certainly.

Senator MCKELLAR. When you put them in these reserves, that does not excuse them from the draft?

Admiral PALMER. Oh, no; the reserves are exactly like regulars. Reserves is rather an unfortunate name, because the bill was drafted in peace times, and they were to be taken from men who had already seen service and who were to be held as reserves until war broke out; but while we are in war they are doing exactly the same duty as the other people.

If our buildings had been completed in time, there would not be any who would not be on active duty. It is simply a question of not having the tents or the buildings. In order to take these people in we have made a requisition upon the Army for tentage, and we are going to put them in tents until the buildings are ready, because we want to start them in training right away.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose this bill passes applicable only to the Army, and we authorize the drafting of men between the ages of 18 and 45. They are now all subject to Army regulations.

Admiral PALMER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose the Army were to do just what they have done now with reference to men in the draft age and were to hold a man who is registered and drafted subject to military duty in the Army, where would you get your men?

Admiral PALMER. We would get none.

The CHAIRMAN. Then why not amend this bill so as to include the naval service as well as the military service in some form or other?

Admiral PALMER. Things are going on satisfactorily with the arrangements we have had. We have the great majority of our men in, and it would be much easier for us to let them go to the recruiting offices, those who wish to enlist in the Navy, and limit it to the 15,000 a month. This would be only a drop in the bucket as compared with the great number that will go into the Army, and we would select the men up to that number that are needed for naval work.

The CHAIRMAN. Your position, then, is this. If we leave the bill as it is and draft all men between 18 and 45, you can continue by mutual arrangement with the War Department to get the men you need for the Navy?

Admiral PALMER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You think you would have no trouble with the War Department in adjusting this difficulty?

Admiral PALMER. Secretary Daniels said that he could make an arrangement with Secretary Baker to provide all the men we want of the proper qualification, and that he had made arrangements with Secretary Baker to the effect that this temporary stop was only for these two months, and that we would start in again in September recruiting under the usual arrangements.

Senator NEW. But Mr. Baker may die, and you will have an understanding between Mr. Daniels and Mr. Baker and there may be a change for some reason or other and another Secretary may come in,

and then you will have somebody with whom there is no arrange

ment.

Senator SMITH. The President could control it.

Senator NEW. It gets around to the same old proposition, that it would be better to have it arranged in the law than to leave it a mere matter of understanding.

Senator JOHNSON. This whole law is left to the regulation of the particular gentleman administering it.

Senator REED. I confess that I do not quite get the admiral's idea. Originally or up to this time you have put out recruiting officers, and when you got a man who was within the draft age and he afterwards appeared in the draft the fact that he had been drawn in the Navy and had gone into the Navy excused him from service in the Army. You got some of your men outside of the draft age, in which event the Army had nothing to do with it. It is now proposed to have all men between 18 and 45, which practically embraces all of the men you would want for any purpose, drafted into the Army. The question arises, How, then, will you get your men?

It seems to me that the proposition is only open to two solutions. One is to allow you to continue to recruit as if this bill had never been passed, or never should pass, and then when a man is drawn in the draft and his answer is that he has volunteered in the Navy, he is excused from service in the Army, and in that way you have the privilege of filling the Navy by volunteers. That would be one way, and that could be pursued by mutual consent, whether it is in the law or not. The other way is for all these men to be drafted, and then for you to make requisition for, we will say, 15,000 men a month. Another plan would be to allow the men to indicate that they desire to serve with the Navy, and then get the amount, 15,000 a month, assigned to the Navy. Which of those plans do you really want?

Admiral PALMER. The plan I really want is to have the men in the draft age, 18 to 45, who wish to go into the Navy, go to the enrolling officers and be enrolled in the Navy.

Senator REED. Either before they are called or after.

Admiral PALMER. Before they are called. We would probably get them before they are called.

Senator WADSWORTH. You could not take them after they are called.

Senator REED. I mean as to the time they are called.

Admiral PALMER. Then we could have a limit of approximately 15,000 a month, which, of course, is a small number as compared with the totals.

Senator WADSWORTH. Is there not a great conflict in principle between those two systems?

Admiral PALMER. You mean in respect to voluntary enlistment and drafting?

Senator WADSWORTH. Yes.

Admiral PALMER. Yes; there is a vast difference in principle. In the Navy they have 440,000 now, and we probably will not need more than 15,000 a month from now on.

Senator WADSWORTH. Does that include the marines?

Admiral PALMER. NO.

Senator REED. Then, if you have gotten 440,000 in there now, which you say are volunteers, if you were to add 15,000 a month of

drafted men, that would make a mixture in your Navy affairs that would be rather undesirable, would it not?

Admiral PALMER. It would now, since the others have all come in voluntarily.

Senator WADSWORTH. You might say the same thing of the Army. Admiral PALMER. They have so many in the Army that are drafted that I do not think the same rule would apply. I do not know how much weight it would have, but it certainly would have

some.

Senator REED. It would be about 1 to 20 in the draft?

Admiral PALMER. Yes; it is 1 to 20 now.

Senator REED. Whereas in the Army a very great majority are drafted men?

Admiral PALMER. Yes.

Senator SMITH. Would you not consider those between 21 and 31, even though they have enrolled in the Navy, as being under the draft, as being drafted men? They were drafted to go into the Army, but they preferred to go into the Navy, and simply before they were reached on the call they elected to go into the Navy, but they were drafted men nevertheless.

Admiral PALMER. Yes.

Senator SMITH. Just like all of the others. They were not drafted into the Navy. They elected for service before they were called in the draft for the Army.

The CHAIRMAN. You think it will be better to permit this bill to be enacted or whatever law we do enact without respect to the Navy, leaving the whole matter under the jurisdiction of the Army, and then trust to the Secretaries of the two branches of the service to adjust the matters between them?

Admiral PALMER. They have done so so far. We have been getting men in the way that I have outlined, but of course before I make any definite statement on that I would have to get a definite statement from Secretary Daniels that he could successfully handle it with Secretary Baker.

The CHAIRMAN. I can see there may be some complications about undertaking to create in the Navy now registration boards and local boards for the purpose of registering men, and it would seem to me that it would be better to have it all under one branch of the service. It is now under the War Department, and they have formulated their plans and established their jurisdictions.

Admiral PALMER. We always think that the service directly concerned is most interested in the kind of men it is going to recruit. military or naval, and, therefore, that service generally should have charge. They know the kind of men they want, and they can get a better class for their purpose if they had charge of recruiting or enrolling the men.

Senator REED. What kind of men do you want?

Admiral PALMER. We want able-bodied men, mostly men who have had some engineering or mechanical experience. That is the principal thing; it covers gunnery and everything else. Of course, we want aviators, but they require very little in the way of previous experience, and we are getting some of the best men from men who have had no experience whatever. But aviation mechanics require experience.