May 19.

The House having resolved itself into a committee to take into further consideration the Irish propositions, Mr. Pitt moved the third resolution: viz. "That towards carrying into full effect so desirable a settlement, it is fit and proper that all articles, not the growth or manufacture of Great Britain or Ireland, should be imported into each kingdom from the other reciprocally, under the same regulations, and at the same duties, if subject to duties, to which they are liable when imported directly from the place of their growth, product, or manufacture; and that all duties originally paid on importation into either country respectively, except on arrack and foreign brandy, and on rum, and all sorts of strong waters, not imported from the British colonies in the West Indies or America, shall be fully drawn back on exportation to the other." The resolution was strongly opposed by Lord North, Mr. Burke, and Mr. Pelham; and supported by Mr. W. Grenville, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. Dundas. Mr. Sheridan observed, that as several fresh petitions had come in, and gentlemen not sufficiently acquainted with the subject would wish for more time, he would move, that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. When the question was going to be put,

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Mr. Fox said, that after having expressed his sentiments on the propositions so fully on a former day, and after hearing his noble friend (Lord North) discuss them so ably that night, he should not have troubled the committee again, if observations had not fallen, in the course of the debate, from gentlemen on the other side of the House, directed so personally to himself, that not to take some notice of them would be pleading guilty to the charge. It was not without some astonishment that he heard the propositions defended on the score of their popularity, and that astonishment was increased when he reflected on the quarter from whence that defence came. The honourable gentleman, who was representative for the county of York, and who could not be unacquainted with the sentiments of his constituents on the present measure, as they instructed him to vote against it, had expressed the disapprobation of his numerous and respectable constituents in the same breath that he asserted the popularity of the measure. That circumstance alone should have instructed him better, if he was not to be informed by the petitions which crowded the table, containing the signature of some hundred thousands. There was a time when the opinions of the people were apparently collected from a less numerous and less voluminous body of evidence. There was a time when collected opinions were opposed to measures: and when those opinions were considered decisive on a question to which the epithet of

rash was this day added, while the more lenient, and agreeable epithets of courageous and bold were applied to the subject now under consideration. But without taking to himself the credit of much sagacity, he could not be supposed totally ignorant of the danger to which he exposed himself in proposing his system for the government of India. Yet, unpopular as that bill was, and much as it was decried, he was ready at all times to defend himself on it; and the experience of another system, which was more successful, gave him no reason to change his opinion. He gave gentlemen credit for the dexterity with which they contrived to introduce this bill, and blend it with every other subject: he was also prepared to hear the American war adverted to, however foreign to the subject. But among the many advantages of youth, it was no inconsiderable one, that in affairs of which they knew little but by report, in transactions in which they never bore any part, young gentlemen, after taking their seats in parliament, were at liberty to choose whatever side should then be most popular, in a question that had been long before disposed of. To hear such persons talk, who would not suppose that they partook in the toil of resisting those measures in their progress? Who could hear the declamation of the honourable gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) but must be of opinion, that to him belonged the merit of concluding the American war? But these were auxiliaries which the gentlemen on the other side never failed to call in to supply the absence of reason and of argument. An honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Grenville) in a speech of considerable length, replete with invective and declamation, had used no other arguments except what had been before urged by the right honourable mover of the propositions: nor had he replied to any argument against them, but what consisted in misrepresentation; and indeed, for the best of reasons, because the arguments used in opposition to them were perfectly unanswerable. In the present arrangement, wherever there was advantage, it lay on the side of Ireland; but to this country every provision was adverse. It was curious reasoning to account for the clause by which Irish linens, which was their staple commodity, should continue to be imported, duty free, into England, by saying that the same exemption from duty shall be there extended to British linens. It would be as reasonable in France, should she treat with them on similar terms, to say, you shall suffer our wines to be imported duty free into Great Britain, and we in return will admit your wines duty free into France, whenever you may have any. There were but two ways by which this country and Ireland could meet on equal terms; either to take off all duties, and admit every

indiscriminate article from either country, or to lay general duties, ad valorem, on every commodity. The sixteenth proposition, if worded with a view to promote cavil and increase ambiguity, could not be more successful; nor could any words be used more likely to be productive of dispute than the words "effectual preference." And the alteration of the fifth proposition to the twelfth was liable to the same remarks. The idea of countervailing duties, carried an absurdity on the very face of it; for as it was not only necessary to equalize the duty of the internal excise, but to bring it to a fair balance, it would also be necessary to consider all the attendant and incidental expences to which the British manufacturers were unavoidably exposed. There were some taxes in this country which it would be impossible to countervail, as the house, the servant, and commutation tax, &c. The commer

cial complaint of Ireland he always considered ill founded, though he thought otherwise of their political ones; but whatever ground of complaint they might have, this certainly was not the measure which could in any degree satisfy them. They wanted not this participation; they looked for protecting duties; and were the advantages tenfold, he would not pay the price demanded for them, except he lost sight of that spirit of liberty with which that country was of late years particularly inspired. He was sorry to hear an honourable gentleman insinuate that a rupture might be the consequence of refusing this system to Ireland. He confessed, that though the powers of that country were much inferior to this, if unemployed elsewhere, he could not without horror reflect for a moment on the possibility of such an event, and there was scarcely any thing he would not surrender to prevent it. In his own person he entertained the most unbounded national partiality for Ireland; he had the most particular attachments there, and there was an excellency in their character which must always endear people of that country to such as had these attachments; yet he was so much of an Englishman, that he could not part with those resources and advantages, on which our national existence depended. He then took a view of the general question, and mentioned the circumstance of an union as extremely desirable, but what could scarcely be obtained, and was thrown at a greater distance than ever by the provisions of this arrangement. Adverting to Mr. Wilberforce's remarks on personal confidence, he said, the honourable gentleman having professed himself to be influenced only by his judgment in this day's vote, deserved to be commended, and the more so as he exercised that judgment in opposition to the opinions and instructions of his constituents. But other members of par

liament did not hesitate to express that they were unacquainted with the merits of the question, but were ready to vote for them, reposing in the confidence and attachment they bore to his majesty's minister; and in doing this, they made that sacrifice, which was the last a member of parliament should yield; they not only surrendered their own opinions into the hands of the minister, but at the same time they surrendered the opinions of their constituents. If a member could form no opinion of his own, he ought rather to adopt the opinions of those constituents who sent him into parliament, and whose interests he was engaged to consult, than yield himself to the direction of any individual. In complimenting the minister, it' was judicious to adopt invectives against others. His popularity, if he possessed any, had a greater foundation in the conduct of others, than in any action of his own; for no measures of his own had any merit to recom mend him. to popularity; even his most zealous advocates were obliged to abandon him in one of the principal transactions of the session; but the misconception of the conduct of others was the base on which his merit was erected, it was his Gay hope by fancy led." There were now petitions before the committee which ought certainly to be attended to before they decided on the question. It had appeared in evidence at the bar, that false and deluding expectations were held out to the manufacturers; and though it was attempted to be controverted in the absence of one of the parties concerned, he was now in London, and ready to corroborate what was stated before. Disapproving so much as he did of the present system, he was determined to give it all the opposition in his power; for which reason he intended to try the force of amendments with which he was prepared, and which, if adopted, would at least qualify the resolutions, and render them less dangerous.

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The committee divided on the motion of adjournment: Yeas 90: Noes 195.

May 23.

The House being again in the committee on the Irish propositions, Mr. Pitt moved the fourth resolution: viz. "That it is highly important to the general interest of the British empire, that the laws for regulating trade and navigation, should be the same in Great Britain and Ireland; and therefore, that it is essential towards carrying into effect the present settlement, that all laws which have been made, or shall be made in Great Britain, for securing exclusive privileges to the ships and mariners of Great Britain,

Ireland, and the British colonies and plantations, and for regulating and restraining the trade of the British colonies and plantations, shall be in force in Ireland (by acts to be passed in the parliament of that kingdom) in the same manner as in Great Britain; and that proper measures should from time to time be taken, for effectually carrying the same into execution." Mr. Sheridan asked if the words " by acts to be passed in the parliament of Ireland," had really been moved on Friday morning last; for he did not recollect to have heard them till the moment the chairman had read them. Mr. Taylor replied, that the words alluded to were most certainly part of the motion put into his hand on Friday morning by the chancellor of the exchequer. Mr. Pitt said, that the alteration observed by the honourable gentleman had been made in consequence of a gesture he perceived on that side of the House when the proposition was read. Lord Beauchamp moved by way of amendment to leave out the words from "Ireland" to the words " and that proper measures should be taken," &c. Mr. Sheridan contended, that it was fair to argue, that the proposition was a direct attempt to legislate for Ireland, and not the less so in consequence of the amendment. It was, therefore, he said, insidious in the last degree for Mr. Orde not to have stated it to the Irish parliament, to whom the business had been opened in a very different manner. He declared, that the voting resolutions to bind Ireland down to pass such and such laws, without enabling her to go even into a committee with the bills, was crippling that right of legislation which she had claimed and we had admitted, and leaving her the mere shadow of independence, as a sovereign state, instead of the substance. He therefore contended, that it was probable in the highest degree that the resolution under consideration would cause great alarm, and excite much constitutional jealousy in Ireland.

Mr. Fox began by observing, that when the Irish propositions were first laid before the British House of Commons, the minister declared that the consequence must certainly be, that all the complaints of Ireland would be completely settled, not only upon fair but upon advantageous terms to Great Britain. That although a participation of our commerce would be granted to Ireland, yet, such was the deliberate wisdom with which the propositions had been framed, that although great advantages were promised to Ireland, we, in fact, should be adding very considerably to our own.

He declared, that, as a friend to Ireland, no man had it. more at heart than he had to grant every advantage to that country consistently with the safety and welfare of his own: that he was perfectly of opinion, the prosperity of Ireland was the prosperity of Great Britain; and, on the other hand, he was also of opinion, that the prosperity of Great Britain undoubtedly must be the prosperity of Ireland. To promote the welfare of Ireland, and to see that perfect cordiality and