what is in the Constitution now, they will understand the proposition we submit much easier. The object of the Committee was to place that which is now in a somewhat obscure form-so much so as to call for legal interpretation—in the plainest and fullest light. When gentlemen undertake to say that we present to the Convention a much greater amount in connection with the militia than existed in the Constitution before, with all due respect and deference to the gentlemen who utter these opinions, I wish to say in the most guarded manner possible, without injuring the feelings of any man, that they do not know anything about it, [laughter,] unless they have particularly examined the subject. We are inclined to think, taking in connection the seventh article, upon the powers of the governor and commander-in-chief, that we have abridged the article upon the militia at least one-fourth. There are some twenty or thirty lines, perhaps forty, in the present Constitution, which we have condensed into the small space of four lines. We have merely taken the article in the Constitution upon this subject, as it stands, and perfected and improved that which was somewhat obscure. I confess that during the time I was intrusted with the duties of adjutant-general by a former governor of the Commonwealth-the gentleman who sits in front of me, (Mr. Briggs,)-I was often in doubt as to what was intended by the language used in the Constitution upon this subject. The object of the Committee was to remove all doubt and difficulty as to what was meant; and I assure gentlemen of the Convention, notwithstanding the eloquent remarks made by my friend who served in the Massachusetts militia ten years, that we have put this matter in a plainer form than before, so that every-body can understand it. I assure the Convention that to the best of my ability and knowledge, the whole matter has been condensed and simplified, and when it comes up in its final form to be presented to the people, it will occupy a much smaller space than is now occupied by the provisions of the Constitution relating to this subject. Mr. CHURCHILL, of Milton, moved the previous question. The previous question was seconded and the main question ordered, which was upon the final passage of the resolutions. Mr. OLIVER. May I be permitted to say one single word? The PRESIDENT. It can be done only by the unanimous consent of the Convention. Leave was granted. Mr. OLIVER. I merely wish to state that the Constitution, as it now stands, contains one hun [June 22d. dred and eighty-nine lines in reference to the militia, and that the Report, as presented by the Committee to this Convention, contains sixty-nine lines. Mr. KEYES, for Abington. I beg leave to make a personal explanation. I stated last evening, in a fit of patriotic enthusiasm, that I would vote for this resolution. I made this statement because I supposed the State of Massachusetts had something to do with this matter of the militia, and therefore I thought it proper to insert in the Constitution a provision assuming the direction of the militia of Massachusetts. I have learned to-day that it is the opinion of this Convention that Massachusetts has nothing to do with this matter, and that she cannot even organize a company of militia of her own citizens. This document assumes that Massachusetts has something to do with this matter. In that respect it is a hypocritical doctrine, a false and fallacious idea; and on the other hand, if it is not that, it strikes me that there is no use at all of having these resolutions in the Constitution. We have gone all over them and taken out everything which we feared would conflict with the government of the United States. I think that I must join with the other party, which is frightened for fear of coming in conflict with the United States. I did think of buying a pop-gun for one of my children, but I am afraid it might endanger the Union; and lest I may be transgressing, I shall vote against the resolution. The question was then taken upon the resolve, and there were—ayes, 173; noes, 35. So the resolve was agreed to. Mr. WILSON, of Natick. I move that the Committee of the Whole be discharged from the further consideration of the Report upon the subject of the governor's command of the militia, with instructions to consider the expediency of substituting the following resolution for their former Report: Resolved, That it is expedient to alter the Constitution of the Commonwealth by striking out the whole of article seventh of section first, chapter second. The motion was agreed to. The PRESIDENT. The next matter in the Orders of the Day is the resolves on the subject of the Council. They have been twice read, and the question is on their final passage. Mr. BOUTWELL, for Berlin. I should be very happy, for myself, to have the question taken. I made the motion, some days ago, that these resolutions lie upon the table for the accommodation of the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Wednesday,] KEYES-CHURCHILL-TRAIN - BUTLER. Butler,) whom I do not now see in his seat. I therefore move, once more, that the Convention pass over these resolutions, that the gentleman from Lowell may have an opportunity to speak upon them. The PRESIDENT. If no objection is made, the resolutions will be passed over. Mr. KEYES, for Abington. I object. The PRESIDENT. The Chair would suggest that the gentleman for Berlin may move that they be postponed. Mr. BOUTWELL. I am reluctant to do it, but I will move that they be postponed until to morrow. Mr. KEYES. If that be debatable, I wish to state, that I understand the gentleman to give as a reason for the postponement of the question, the fact that the gentleman from Lowell is absent. He has taken a little interest on the one side, and I did on the other; and when it shall come up again, I shall be absent. I do not know, if the reason is found sufficient to defer the question on his account, why it is not sufficient in my case; but I certainly do not wish it deferred on my account. It has been long before the Convention; and there is another argument on my side, which would not prevail on his. The subject has been fairly and fully discussed, and the question has been taken over and over again, and the purpose, I suppose, if there be any purpose, is to reverse the deliberate opinion of the Convention; and if we offer extra opportunities for that purpose, we may never get through. Mr. CHURCHILL, of Milton. I sincerely hope the motion to postpone, will prevail. It is now a late hour of the day and the question which has been taken up, is a very important one. I know that the gentleman from Lowell desires to speak upon it, as well as many other gentlemen. A proposition was submitted the other day to limit the pardoning power, exercised by this Council. I know that very many gentlemen were in favor of this proposition, but it was voted down by the Convention. I believe there are very many gentlemen, who wish to look still farther into the necessity for the existence of the Council, and I hope an opportunity to debate the question still farther will be given, and I have no doubt it will be embraced if it is given. Mr. TRAIN, of Framingham. I hope the motion of the gentleman for Berlin will prevail, partly to gratify the gentleman from Lowell, who feels an especial interest in matters growing out of this question, and who is exceedingly able to present his views on this subject, as he is on any other. [At this moment Mr. Butler took his seat.] But as the gentleman is now here and [June 22d. can speak so much better for himself than I can for him, I will say no more about it. I had hoped, some time or other, to present some views of my own on the subject. I was not at all aware that the matter was coming up this afternoon, and I do not desire to address the Convention until we shall have the information which was attempted to be obtained by an order submitted by the gentleman from Lowell and amended by the gentleman for Abington. I think the Convention can never so well judge with regard to matters pertaining to this subject as they can after the order of inquiry relating to the exercise of the pardoning power, has been complied with by the Secretary of the Commonwealth; and I hope the matter will be allowed to subside until we obtain that information. I impute no ill motives to any member of the Council of this Commonwealth, either past or present. I have no doubt they have endeavored to perform their duties with great faithfulness; but I must say-for I have had some experience in the administration of the criminal law in this Commonwealth-that the Council seem to have set themselves up to undo everything which the trial by jury has secured. Now, at the fit time, after having obtained the proper information, I wish to submit my views to the Convention, and for that reason I hope the motion to postpone the subject will prevail. Mr. KEYES. I will say that the gentleman seems very much disturbed that some have been pardoned out of prison; but I do not know what that has to do with the matter. I suppose that a vote to take away the pardoning powers from the Council, would not render the Council altogether unnecessary on that account. These questions have been discussed separately, and it seems now that we have to go over the ground again. I do not know whether it is proposed to go into it again or not. It strikes me there is a larger number of persons present now than we have had for several days. We have at least two hours on hand. We could sit till seven o'clock last night, puffing up the militia, and I do not see why we cannot sit till that time to-night. Mr. BUTLER, of Lowell. I would hope that this subject may be postponed until the evidence which I asked for from the office of the Secretary of State, and which he is busy in getting out, shall be before the Convention. If there ought to be any change that evidence will throw light; and if there ought not to be any change, the Council will come cut like those tried in the fire, brighter than before. Now, gentlemen, I hope there will be no shrinking from the investigation of the records; for up to this hour their records have been a sealed book to every citizen except the members of the legislature of this Commonwealth. We wish now to get a little light from that source, and their doings shall testify of them, -for good I trust,-for good I hope; I wish I could say, for good I believe. [Laughter.] But I am willing to trust and hope; and if the Convention will pass over this, as we have got some six or eight other matters which can be considered, I should be very glad to lay before the Convention what has seemed to be the only ground upon which the Council has been advocated, to wit: the exercise of the pardoning power. I wish to lay before the Convention these results, and I think every man in the Convention, as well as the people at large, will be able to vote more understandingly after they get the statistics which my friend for Abington wants, and which I want, and which I think the whole Convention want. I hardly think we should have this pressed through now. I trust that my friend for Abington, the advocate, the Magnus Apollo of the Council, will allow the matter to be passed over; because I think if he will, all that agree with him in opinion will do so. Mr. BOUTWELL. I moved to take up from the table, these resolutions at a moment when I was not aware of the effort to obtain the information from the Secretary of the Commonwealth, to which gentlemen seem to attach so much importance. Now that this subject may be discussed, when it is discussed, with all the information before us that we can possibly have, I will move that the resolutions lie on the table. The motion was agreed to. Commander-in-Chief. Mr. WILSON, of Natick, moved to take up for consideration the Report of the Committee on the Militia, upon an order of May 30th, instructing that Committee to inquire into the expediency of amending article seventh of section first, chapter second, of the Constitution by substituting therefor the following words: "The governor shall be commander-in-chief of the Militia of the Commonwealth, and of the Army and Navy." The motion was agreed to. The question was stated to be on the acceptance of the Report of the Committee, which is, that it is inexpedient to amend said article. Mr. WILSON offered the following amendment: Resolved, That it is expedient to alter the Constitution of this Commonwealth by striking out the whole of Article 7, Chapter 2d. The PRESIDENT. The Chair is of opinion that that motion is not in order. The Report of the Committee, under the order of May 30th, has been passed upon. Mr. WILSON. I suppose that if this Report is accepted the seventh article will remain as it now stands in the Constitution, and that we so decide. We have decided to make an article in the place of that which is in the Report of the Committee on the Militia. The chairman of that Committee, in discussing that matter, and the gentleman from Lowell, and also the gentleman from Freetown, have all so considered it. Now this Committee reported against a change of this seventh article and it seems to me we must strike it out. Mr. ASPINWALL, of Brookline. I rise to a question of order, whether there is any propriety in the Convention considering this article while the fifty-second rule is not suspended. That rule is as follows: "Every order or resolution which proposes an alteration in the Constitution, and all reports of committees appointed to consider the propriety and expediency of making any alteration therein, shall be considered in Committee of the Whole before they are debated and finally acted upon in Convention." The PRESIDENT. This Report has been referred to the Committee of the whole Convention, and the Committee has been discharged from its consideration. The gentleman from Natick has offered an amendment to the Report, and the Chair has decided that the amendment is not in order, and it is not before the Convention in the form which the gentleman from Brookline supposes. Mr. HOPKINSON. I understand that the Convention has decided to proceed to the consideration of the Report. Mr. ASPINWALL. I rise to a question of order whether the Convention can consider this Report. The PRESIDENT. The question is upon the disposal of the Report. It is competent for the Convention to do what they choose with it. A proposition to dispose of it has not yet been made. The gentleman from Boston has the floor. Mr. HOPKINSON. I was about to remark that the chairman of the Committee which reported this subject is not now present. I had the honor to be a member of that Committee, and so far as I have been able to see, the action of the Convention upon the subject of the Report of the Committee has settled the whole matter in intention, though not in the form submitted in that Report. I am not prepared to say that nothing ought to be done upon the subject. It appears to me that it may be recommitted to the Committee that reported it, and I make that motion. Mr. WILSON. Would it be in order to recommit the amendment I have proposed with it? The PRESIDENT. Inasmuch as the Convention cannot amend the Report it cannot instruct the Committee to amend it; the resolve proposed by the gentleman may be referred to the Committee. The question was taken on the motion to recommit, and it was decided in the affirmative. Mr. WILSON. I now move to refer to that Committee the amendment which I have proposed. The motion was agreed to. Loan of the State Credit. Mr. BOUTWELL, for Berlin, moved that the Convention resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the Report of the Special Committee, who were appointed to inquire and report to the Convention upon the expediency of so amending the Constitution that the legislature shall have no right to loan the credit of the State to any individual or corporation, or to contract any debt for any purpose except to carry on the government and defray its necessary expenses, or to repel invasion or suppress insurrection. The motion was agreed to. [June 22d. reached, but, on the other hand, a precisely opposite decision. These are my sentiments; and this is not the first question which has been decided, not upon the reason and judgment and intellect of the people here, but upon that of those out of doors. If it is not demanding too much, I would like to have the chairman or some other member of the Committee, state the grounds upon which this Report is presented; and I have no doubt but that they will be able to give some reasons why it should be adopted. I wish to say only one word in regard to it-not that I wish to argue here or any where else against an appropriation for the Hoosac Tunnel; but one of the chief objections to appropriations of that sort grows out of the fact that such appropriations have been made to other corporations, and I ask the Convention to consider if a great amount of argument has not proceeded out of this state of things. The State of Massachusetts loaned its credit some time ago to the Western Railroad. Now, Sir, another portion of the community demand, as they say, the same right and the same privilege, and the general argument is based upon this one thing. Do not they claim that aid on the ground that it has been given to another corporation, and do they not say that that corporation is a nuisance? Do they not charge that corporation with going into the legislature and depriving a portion of the people of their rights-that it is a great monied The Convention accordingly resolved itself into corporation in which the State has an interest, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE, Mr. Boutwell in the Chair, and proceeded to con- The question being upon the adoption of said Mr. KEYES. It has been customary heretofore, I believe, upon the part of almost all the chairmen of the various committees which make reports-although sometimes, I confess, it has been quite unnecessary-for them to make some explanation of the grounds upon which the report is made. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not know as I have any objection at all to this Report, but the thought has suggested itself to me that this Report has been made with particular reference to one subject which has been before the people of Massachusetts lately, and which has excited a good deal of interest. I do not wish to do injustice to that Committee or to the Report which they have presented, but I believe that if the Hoosac Tunnel had never been heard of, that Report would never have been made, and the decision to which the Committee have come would not have been and that they got this themselves, which is a great infliction upon the people of Massachusetts? And thus they go on with all this long list of charges against that corporation, and then they complain because you will not make another just like it. In these remarks I am taking the representations made by the friends of this project—I am talking about what they say, and not what I say-I am taking it for granted that all their representations are true, and I say if they be true, this State will never again grant its credit, because by doing so it is building up these overwhelming corporations which interfere with the rights of the people. If it were not for the Tunnel, I have no idea that the Convention or the people would ever agree to put a provision in the Constitution by which any other such monster should ever be built up. I may be in error about this matter, but I should like to have the Committee tell us why they make such a Report as this. The whole democratic party were a few years ago opposed to the appropriation of the State credit to any private corporation, and the whig party or at least a great portion of them, have taken similar ground; and for this reason it appears rather strange that such a Report should be presented here. Wednesday,] WILSON KEYES-STETSON-BRADFORD. Mr. WILSON, of Shelburne. I do not see the chairman of the Committee in his seat; if he was here, I presume he could tell the gentleman upon what ground the Committee based their action in making this Report. But, Sir, as I had the honor of being a member of that Committee, I can speak so far as I am concerned, of the reasons for my action, although I am not much of a speech-maker. My action was based not simply upon any local idea, but upon general principles. The loan of the State credit has been granted heretofore, and I have seen no evil growing out of it; but on the other hand I am convinced that this policy has been attended with beneficial results. I can see that certain sections of our country have been enriched by that policy, and I am not aware that the State has ever lost the first dollar in consequence of the aid which she has thus extended. I think that those gentlemen who object to the loan of the State credit, are bound to show in what manner this policy has operated injuriously; they are bound to show that the nature of the case demands that the gates are to be shut down, henceforth and forever. Now, Sir, I think that Massachusetts, in the policy which she has adopted in relation to this matter, has been conservative. Mr. KEYES. If the gentleman will permit me to interrupt him, I will ask him whether he considers that the Western Railroad Corporation, which has been assisted out of the State Treasury, has never violated its duty in regard to the rights of other people, and has always conducted in a proper manner? Mr. WILSON. I was not speaking in relation to the Western Railroad Corporation, and I do not know that I am bound to stand up in their defence. Mr. KEYES. I understood the gentleman to say that no corporation, which had been assisted by the State, had ever done anything inconsistent with the rights, the liberties, and the privileges of the citizens of Massachusetts. Mr. WILSON. I remarked at the outset, that I was speaking of general principles; and in my action upon this matter I did not look at individual and local cases, but at general principles, as we are bound to consider them. The gentleman says that this decision of the Committee would never have been made, if it had not been for a certain project which had attracted considerable attention among the people. I might, perhaps, with equal propriety and justice, say that this order would not have been moved at this time, and that nobody would have thought of having such a prohibition inserted in the Constitution, if it had not been for this project. I can appeal to the wisdom of this Committee, if my conclusion [June 22d. is not just as good as his. I was saying, Mr. Chairman, that I consider the State to have been conservative in this matter. I think that she may reasonably be supposed to have arrived at mature growth, and that she has no need of having a guardian placed over her at this time. I consider her legislative action to have been judicious heretofore, and therefore I am willing to leave the legislature to use their discretion in future. I admit that this Convention contains a considerable amount of wisdom and talent; but we must not suppose that we have got all the wisdom which either exists now, or will exist. We ought to be willing to concede that judicious men will hereafter take part in administering the affairs of government; and I am decidedly opposed to having this Convention tie up the hands of the legislature hereafter. I hope we shall leave it discretionary with them, and leave this an open question, at least until a real injury shall be sustained. There are gentlemen here, undoubtedly, who are better able to defend this Report than I am; and I should not have spoken at all, had it not been for the absence of the chairman from his seat. Mr. STETSON, of Braintree. I do not rise to make a speech upon this question at this time; but I should like to hear the reasons of the chairman of the Committee, who, as I understand, is absent, before the Convention take action upon the Report. In the mean time, I move to amend the Report of the Committee, by striking out all after the words "In Convention, June 15, 1853," and inserting in lieu thereof the following: Resolved, That the Constitution be so amended that hereafter no loan of the State credit shall be given to any corporation or individual, unless the question is first submitted to the people. Mr. BRADFORD, of Essex. As the chairman of the Committee is absent, and as I am informed that the gentleman from Taunton, (Mr. Morton,) to whom we all look for counsel in important matters, and who takes a deep interest in this question on the side opposite to that of the Report, has gone home sick, and cannot be here to-day, I move that the Committee now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The motion was agreed to. The Committee accordingly rose, and the President having resumed the Chair of THE CONVENTION, The Chairman, (Mr. Boutwell, for Berlin,) reported progress, and asked that the Committee have leave to sit again. Leave was granted. |