left it to the Convention to say whether, there should be eighty or more. I would have proposed, however, if you intend to preserve the general ticket system, that it should be general throughout the Commonwealth; and no district should ever have a right to vote for more representatives than one district should vote for in common. That would be the basis of the proposition; for, to preserve the general ticket system in certain towns, and not in others, would be manifestly unjust and unequal.

The hour of one o'clock, P. M., having arrived, the Convention adjourned until 3 o'clock.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Convention reassembled at three o'clock.

Motion to Print.

[June 29th.

Constitution, and if so, then it follows as a matter of course, so far as the distribution of political power is concerned, that great injustice has been done to various parts of the Commonwealth; and is that injustice still to be continued, under the amendment now under discussion, and to a greater degree? Sir, it is in order to remedy that injustice, that I want a recommitment of this matter. I would by no means take a proposition still more unjust, and adopt it because it is more. unjust than the provisions in the present Constitution.

Ever since the charter of 1691, under which these twin-brothers, as I called them this morning, the Massachusetts and Plymouth Colonies, were united, injustice has been done to the Plymouth Colony, and I hope it will not be continued. Let me say to gentlemen, that under the Charter of William and Mary, there were, I be

Ordered, That the list of towns, not represented for the last thirteen years, as presented by Mr. Giles, of Boston, be printed.

Upon the motion of Mr. UNDERWOOD, of Milford, the Convention proceeded to the consideration of the Orders of the Day.

The PRESIDENT stated, that the pending question was upon the motion of the member from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) to recommit the Majority and Minority Reports on the House of Representatives, and the questions connected therewith, to a select Committee, consisting of one from each county, upon which motion Mr. Hathaway, of Freetown, was entitled to the floor.

Mr. HATHAWAY. Mr. President, when this Convention adjourned, I was saying that there were other propositions to be presented, and among the rest, I had one in reference to this matter, which, at the proper time, I proposed to submit. It is not necessary for me to state that proposition here. If this matter is recommitted to a committee, I shall take occasion, hereafter, to submit it to the Convention, in order that it may be referred to the same committee. Let me say, however, to this Convention, that quiet as we, from the Old Colony, may have been in this discussion, it has not been because we have had no anxiety upon this question, for we have been, and are exceedingly anxious that justice should be done. I stated, when I had the floor before, in alluding to remarks made by the gentleman for Berlin, (Mr. Boutwell,) he admitted that there had been a great inequality in representation, and in the distribution of political power in that branch of the government, under the present

elected. Massachusetts had at least eighteen, the Old Colony at least four, and what is now the State of Maine three, and Nova Scotia one-for the territory of all these places were included in the Charter of the Province of Massachusetts.

The PRESIDENT. The Chair would suggest to the gentleman, that the motion to recommit does not open the merits of the question to discussion.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I did not intend to go into the merits of the question generally, but to apply these remarks to show why the matter should be recommitted.

The PRESIDENT. The question is as to the propriety or impropriety of the motion to recommit. If debate upon the merits is allowed, it would be interminable, and when the Conven tion came to a vote, they would decide nothing.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I did not intend to trespass upon any rule of this Convention, in the remarks I was about to make. I have said something in reference to the injustice under which the Old Colony has suffered, and under which she would continue to suffer, if this proposition should be adopted, but I will restrain further remarks upon that point, if it is a subject which should not now be discussed. But, Sir, for reasons that have been stated, in the course of this debate, I feel that great injustice has been done to us, and I am exceedingly anxious that it should not be continued, but that justice should be done. Therefore I am in favor of recommitting this subject, hoping that the committee to which it shall be committed, will elaborate, as has been said, a proposition, from the light which has been thrown upon this matter, that may be acceptable to all of us, at any rate, one that will

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approach nearer to the principles of justice, than the one from which, under the present Constitution, we are suffering great injustice.

In reference to other matters, I restrain myself here, though I may hereafter have something to say upon the propositions which have been submitted, and upon the remarks made by the gentleman for Berlin, (Mr. Boutwell). I had hoped that a portion of the eternal principles of justice would be dealt out to us, and that no one, living either in this or any other section of the State, would wish to ask of us of the Old Colony, that which is unjust, or require us to yield to them that which they would not be willing to yield to us. Hence, I hope the matter will be recommitted, and that all the propositions which may be presented up to the time when that Committee shall report, will be committed to them.

Mr. ALLEN, of Worcester. I cannot see that any good will result from the recommitment of this matter, which has been the subject of debate for so many days before this Convention. It will throw the whole subject back, and at some future day, when the committee shall have reported, we shall commence discussion upon it "de novo." I suggest to my friend from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) that some other mode of meeting this question should be adopted. I do not belong to either of the four western counties of the State, which, it is said, will obtain an undue share of representation by the adoption of some one of the plans which have been proposed. I am disposed to examine the propositions which come from different portions of the State, and finally to accept the best scheme which may be offered. If no better plan of representation is brought forward, than that which has been offered by the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) I certainly may adopt his; and it seems to me, that our friends who belong to that part of the State from which the gentleman from Freetown comes, instead of intimating, as he did, that which sounds so much like nullification, should give to every scheme that may be presented here, and to those which have been already presented, that consideration to which they are entitled, and should present their own more perfect plan.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I would inquire of the gentleman what statement I made which approached at all to nullification. Surely, I intended no such language.

Mr. ALLEN. I am glad that the gentleman had no such meaning. I referred to the antagonistic position which he represented the "Old Colony' and "Massachusetts Bay" to occupy, and the intimation of some desperate remedy. What that remedy was to be was only fearfully shadowed

[June 29th.

forth, and we who were listeners, were obliged to draw from it such inferences as we could.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I ask if what I said was not true, that the majority of the delegates upon the floor of this House were not the representatives of a minority of the people?

Mr. ALLEN. Certainly, I would not question the truth of any assertion which the gentleman would make upon this floor. I know his regard for truth too well not to know that every statement which he makes is intended to be perfectly grounded in that respect.

Let me say that it is easy to object to any scheme of representation which can be offered, come from what quarter it may; but much more difficult to present a more perfect plan. I have been looking, for days, to the direction from which the gentleman from Freetown comes, for the presentation of a scheme of representation which shall be more acceptable than those which have been offered; and I now ask, that instead of recommitting this matter, they will now offer their matured plan. We will, I am sure, go into Committee of the Whole, if the gentlemen desire it, and examine the scheme which they may have to present, as a substitute for that which is now before the Convention.

Let me say one word upon the subject of the injustice of which the gentleman from Freetown has complained. He knows very well that whatever basis of representation we shall adopt, must be a matter of compromise, unless we resort to the district system, which I hope we shall not do in any event. If the gentleman will take the amendment which was offered by the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) and which is now before the Convention, and will take his pen and paper, he will find that that amendment gives to Plymouth County, to which he has referred, a greater proportionate representation than the county of Middlesex, almost equal to that of the county of Worcester, and more than its proportion of the representation of the whole Commonwealth if the representation were based upon population.

Without trespassing further upon the time of the Convention, I commend these suggestions to the consideration of the gentleman from Freetown, and ask him not to complain of injustice, when, as yet, no proposition coming from him, or from his friends, has been rejected, for they have given us no opportunity of passing upon them.

Mr. EAMES, of Washington. I am opposed to recommitting this subject to a special committee. I have sat here a number of days patiently, to hear what might be said for and against it. There must be some time for us to bring our

deliberations to a close. It is now a little more than eight weeks since we commenced our duties in this Convention for revising the Constitution, and I cannot see that we are any nearer to the close of our labors here, unless it is that we are nearer the end of time. Now, Sir, I am willing that any person who has a plan, shall propose it, and to sit here and hear it discussed, but we gain nothing by a recommitment. This matter is as well before us as it will be before a committee. If it is recommitted to a select committee all these subjects which have been discussed in the Convention must be brought forward and discussed in that Committee, and whenever it comes into this Convention upon the Report, the whole ground will be gone over again. I hope for these reasons that we shall not recommit it, but proceed, in this Convention, to do what we have to do in regard to it.

Mr. BUTLER, of Lowell. I trust I shall not infringe the rules of this House, so well and properly put to the Convention by its presiding officer. Although I may be strongly tempted to say a word in regard to the discursive remarks of the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) I will endeavor to make them exactly fit to the question in some one of their bearings.

He says it is best to recommit this subject to a committee of one from each county, in order to get at an equal basis of representation, or, as he expressed it, to get "eternal justice." Well, then, he says there is apparently a kind of conspiracy-for that is the fair import of his language -on the part of what was Massachusetts proper and the Old Colony.

Mr. HATHAWAY. The gentleman may use my language, but if he says that is an inference of his, and not my language, it is all very well. But if he undertakes to make the charge that I used the word "conspiracy," I should thank him to point it out.

Mr. BUTLER. I was afraid to use the gentleman's language, lest I should travel out of the rule. But as he wants his language, I will tell him what he did say. He said that the Old Colony was the elder brother Esau, and Massachusetts was the Jacob that got the brother's birthright for a mess of pottage. I remembered that Jacob and Rebecca, by a hotch-potch of kid skins and kid soup, defrauded Esau of his birthright, therefore, I came to the inference objected to. That is all. [Laughter.] Now I was not aware that Massachusetts had given any goat soup to the "Old Colony."

But what does the gentleman want? He says he wants "eternal justice" for the Old Colony, and that the various portions of the Common

[June 29th.

wealth should be equally represented, and therefore he wants this matter recommitted to a committee composed of one from each county, in order that each portion of the Commonwealth may be equally represented in population. Now, the proposition of a committee of one from each county is much more unjust than any proposition that I have introduced here, for he proposes to put this question of representation into the hands of a committee, one of whose members shall represent the county of Dukes with a population of only four thousand, and one, and one only, of whom shall represent the great county of Suffolk, with a population of 145,000 inhabitants. He proposes to have that committee fix a basis which he expects we shall adopt, and he means that that committee which fixes the basis of "eternal justice" shall represent different portions of the State in the ratio of 4,000 to 145,000.

Now, Sir, again, he proposes that the county of Nantucket, with 8,000 inhabitants, shall stand upon this committee which is to consult upon the "eternal justice" due to Bristol, with the same power as the 74,000 inhabitants of Bristol itself.

But why did the gentleman choose counties for the basis of his committee? For the same reason that I chose towns, because they were in the habit of going together. He proposes that we should commit to a committee of fourteen, eight of whom represent only 300,000, and six of them represent 600,000 population; he proposes to give them the entire control of the eternal principles of justice, and if that is not done, why then the gentleman hints at something which sounded very much like nullification. But as the gentleman seems, by his reply to the gentleman from Worcester, (Mr. Allen,) to have forgotten after dinner what he said before, I will ask him what he did mean when he said that if they did not get "eternal justice," Esau would break the yoke of Jacob? It sounded to me amazing strange. I ask him what he is going to do with the Old Colony? Is he going back to the old colonial state? Are we to have another Hartford Convention upon a diminutive baby-like scale? Does he speak for the reform men of the Old Colony? I trust in God, not, because I do not believe there is any such feelings between the various sections of the Commonwealth.

The PRESIDENT. The Chair must remind the gentleman that he is travelling somewhat beyond the question.

Mr. BUTLER. I confess it, mea culpa peccavi, but, Mr. President, I had very strong temptation. Now, Sir, I trust that this subject will not be recommitted. What will be the effect of it? There is this radical division between the parties

in this Convention, and I hope the division is, by no manner of means, in the middle. One division is that to which my friend from Boston, (Mr. Giles ;) my friend who addressed the Convention this morning from Ipswich, (Mr. Haskell,) and to which my friend from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) also, are wedded; and that is the district system. A small House, and the district system, is the one side. On the other side there seems to be a disposition to stand by town representation. Here are the two extremes. Now send this subject to the Committee, and what do you get? On the one side you will have more or less of those who believe in a small House, and a basis of voters upon population. On the other side, you will have those who are in favor of town representation. Well, Sir, where are we?

I

This Convention, by a vote which seemed to settle the matter, if it meant anything, have determined that they will not adopt equal districts as a basis of representation, and then, on the other hand, without the offensive lauguage of having "it crammed down our throats by the small towns," there seems to be a disposition by what I hope, is the reform party, the party of progress, in this Convention, to give town representation a prominent place in the system which we shall adopt. That is the state of things; these are the feelings of gentlemen upon one side and upon the other, and what will you gain by your Committee. That Committee will represent the same dispositions, the same feelings and views which we have here in the Convention, and why cannot we settle the matter here as well as there? have had some little experience in this matter of compromising an important subject by means of a committee-by your kindness, Mr. President. One would not naturally suppose, that upon a committee of thirteen, there could be more than thirteen minds, still there may be. I was somewhat amused the other day by a proposition indicated by the gentleman from Lynn, (Mr. Hood,) in relation to this subject, and I suppose I may allude to it by way of illustration. He says send this subject to a committee composed of the sixteen gentlemen who have offered propositions in relation to it. Why, Sir, you might as well send sixteen babies to their mothers, and get them to make a unanimous report upon which was the prettiest. [Laughter.] One could be done as as soon as the other. It is utterly impossible. There would be no hope, no chance of agreement. And it will be precisely the same in a committee composed of one from each of the counties. You will have the same number of different minds and and the same difficulty in getting them to agree upon any plan.

[June 29th.

I listened with pleasure upon the one hand and with pain on the other, -because I knew his disposition to advance his argument upon a correct data,—yesterday, to the argument of the gentleman from Duxbury, (Mr. Weston). I concur with him entirely when he says he desires to see equal and exact justice done to all sections of the Commonwealth, and I think he will concur with me, when he comes to look at this table, that it will be of no avail to send this matter to a committee, because so far as the county from which he comes is concerned, he cannot complain of a want of a proper proportion of political power under the plan which I have proposed.

Now, Sir, I repeat, what will you gain by sending this matter to a committee? You cannot take any system that will insure perfect equality of representation, unless you take the district system, and no man believes for a moment, that the Convention will take that. Sir, I believe my friend from Boston, who spoke this morning, was wild, when he said our constituents sent us here to make a district system of representation. But, I repeat, you cannot take any system that will be exactly equal as regards population, unless you take the district system, and on the other hand, you cannot make any system that will be accepted by the people of the Commonwealth which is not commended to them by long usage, by their knowledge, by their tradition, if you please. Now, Sir, here is a system before you, for which I have no feeling of partiality, except, that I believe it is a system of compromise which will unite all the opposing and conflicting minds upon this subject that can be united by any plan. The moment you step farther than this will carry you, you will abandon town representation and adopt the district system. The moment you step farther, you have the small towns without representation, and I feel that I have a right to speak for the small towns. I am ready to yield this much to them, and in this, I know I represent the wishes of the people whom I have the honor to represent upon this floor. The people of Lowell are willing to concede this much for town representation; and the city I have the honor to represent is not by any means one of the small towns. It is as large as Freetown, if you please, or any other of your towns. And I say, to the gentleman from Freetown, and those who think with him, upon this matter, you cannot expect any support or comfort, in this Convention, or out of it, from those persons who believe in, and who are in some degree wedded to town representation. And when I say this, I trust I shall be understood as uttering no threat to any one.

Sir, I am wedded to no particular view of this

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matter.

Give me a plan which shall seem to be better than mine, and if my scheme is not taken by the Convention I will go for it, heart and hand. I am not going to nullify and vote for somebody else, if my scheme is rejected. I have no threats to make. If my scheme is not acceptable to the Convention, give me another that shall prove a more acceptable one, and I will be found instant in season and out of season, pressing it forward. But, Sir, when I see the glistening satisfaction which I saw when this motion to recommit was brought forward; when I see such satisfaction as I saw glistening upon the face of my friend from Suffolk, (Mr. Morey,) I shall very much distrust any such proposition. I shall very much distrust it when I find that we are threatened if we undertake to carry this scheme forward, with a "power" behind us. Where is that power? Show me that power and I will vote for the motion to recommit. But I am not to be frightened by this "power" that the gentleman (Mr. Hathaway) talks of in Bristol. Sir, I repeat, what power is it? Where has it been felt? Is it that "power" which elected two governors from Bristol? Sir, we have grappled with that power, and have throttled it, so there is no trouble to be apprehended from that quarter, and therefore, I do not think I shall vote for this recommitment for fear of that "power." I am led almost to digress into the expression of a feeling of hostility towards Bristol, because of the aggravations we have had from that quarter; but, Sir, I make no such expression, for I have no such feeling.

Mr. President, as a member of this Convention from the county of Middlesex, I have laid down, I have given away more in my proposition, from the county of Middlesex, than is given up by any other proposition, from any other county in the State, and will your committee do more? Gentlemen have said that we have taken the lion's share for Lowell. Judge ye when ye look at the votes. I have given away much of the power which Lowell might justly have claimed, and will your committee do more? Sir, I will do anything for compromise and harmony, except to be threatened or to be bullied, but I will not do that, nor will I suffer it. I will not be frightened from my propriety by any such talk, and I trust gentlemen will find that it is not the best course to gain favor for their motion to recommit, by telling us that if we do not do such and such things, there is a power behind us. There is a power behind us? Aye, Sir, there is a power above us, which has watched over us day and night.

Now, Sir, I trust this subject will not be recommitted, because we have no time for it. If you appoint this committee a week or a fortnight

[June 29th.

| hence, they will bring forward a proposition and the whole subject will again be opened. We shall again have the same fight for the district sytem on the one hand, and for town representation on the other, and we shall find ourselves, upon this subject, back where we were when we commenced. No, Sir, let us not recommit it; let gentlemen who have propositions which they desire to offer, offer them here; let us try the question, and I trust we shall find that there is no disposition upon the part of any one to do injustice.

I am glad to have my attention called to one consideration in connection with this subject. It was said, when this motion to recommit was made, that there was a disposition upon the part of the friends of town representation, to force a vote. Sir, I have admired the course which those who are the most deeply interested in town representation have taken upon this subject. The gentlemen who represent the small towns upon this floor have sat quietly and allowed every-body to talk but themselves. We have waited in Committee as long as as any body would speak, or as long as any one would offer propositions, and there is certainly no occasion to recommit on that account. We have waited until no man would speak upon the question, and until we had reason to suppose there was no one behind, who would bring forward any other proposition, and could we have done otherwise under such circumstances than to have taken the vote? Sir, I do not desire to check discussion upon this subject. I am glad to hear any discussion upon the subject. I am glad to see any proposition brought forward, and I hope no gentleman who has a proposition which he prefers, will hesitate to bring it forward for fear it will not get votes enough. No, Sir, let us have all the propositions brought forward. "In a multitude of counsellors there is safety," and in the multitude of propositions we shall be more likely to arrive at the true one. Again, I say, let us have all the propositions brought forward. Let us not vote in the dark-but above all things, let us not recommit this subject to another committee, for fear that there is still some proposition yet undiscovered which will be brought to light and which will unite the conflicting views of the members of this Convention. I trust we shall go on with our business, otherwise the long days of summer will be over and find us here in this hall, no further advanced than we are now.

Is there a gentleman here who has not made up his mind upon this subject? If there is such a man, that is a reason why it should be recommitted. But if there is not, then I take it we have settled upon either the town or district sys