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Wednesday,]

WHEELER

- HATHAWAY.

(June 29th.

common.

left it to the Convention to say whether, there Constitution, and if so, then it follows as a matshould be eighty or more.

I would have pro- ter of course, so far as the distribution of political posed, however, if you intend to preserve the power is concerned, that great injustice has been general ticket system, that it should be general done to various parts of the Commonwealth ; and throughout the Commonwealth ; and no district is that injustice still to be continued, under the should ever have a right to vote for more repre- amendment now under discussion, and to a sentatives than one district should vote for in greater degree : Sir, it is in order to remedy that

That would be the basis of the propo- injustice, that I want a recommitment of this sition; for, to preserve the general ticket system matter. I would by no means take a proposition in certain towns, and not in others, would be still more unjust, and adopt it because it is more. manifestly unjust and unequal.

unjust than the provisions in the present ConstiThe hour of one o'clock, P. M., having arrived, tution. the Convention adjourned until 3 o'clock.

Ever since the charter of 1691, under which

these twin-brothers, as I called them this mornAFTERNOON SESSION.

ing, the Massachusetts and Plymouth Colonies,

were united, injustice has been done to the PlyThe Convention reassembled at three o'clock. mouth Colony, and I hope it will not be contin

ued. Let me say to gentlemen, that under the Motion to Print.

Charter of William and Mary, there were, I beOn motion by Mr. WHEELER, of Lincoln, lieve, twenty-eight assistants or magistrates to be it was

elected. Massachusetts had at least eighteen, the

Old Colony at least four, and what is now the Ordered, That the list of towns, not represent

State of Maine three, and Nova Scotia one-for ed for the last thirteen years, as presented by Mr. Giles, of Boston, be printed.

the territory of all these places were included in

the Charter of the Province of Massachusetts. Upon the motion of Mr. UNDERWOOD, of The PRESIDENT. The Chair would suggest Milford, the Convention proceeded to the consid- to the gentleman, that the motion to recommit eration of the Orders of the Day.

does not open the merits of the question to disThe PRESIDENT stated, that the pending cussion. question was upon the motion of the member Mr. HATHAWAY. I did not intend to go into from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) to recommit the merits of the question generally, but to apthe Majority and Minority Reports on the House ply these remarks to show why the matter should of Representatives, and the que connected be recommitted. therewith, to a select Committee, consisting of The PRESIDENT. The question is as to the one from each county, upon which motion Mr. propriety or impropriety of the motion to reHathaway, of Freetown, was entitled to the floor. commit. If debate upon the merits is allowed,

Mr. HATHAWAY. Mr. President, when it would be interminable, and when the Conventhis Convention adjourned, I was saying that tion came to a vote, they would decide nothing. there were other propositions to be presented, and Mr. HATHAWAY. I did not intend to tresamong the rest, I had one in reference to this

pass upon any rule of this Convention, in the matter, which, at the proper time, I proposed to remarks I was about to make. I have said somesubmit. It is not necessary for me to state that thing in reference to the injustice under which proposition here. If this matter is recommitted the Old Colony has suffered, and under which to a committee, I shall take occasion, hereafter, she would continue to suffer, if this proposition to submit it to the Convention, in order that it should be adopted, but I will restrain further remay be referred to the same committee. Let me marks upon that point, if it is a subject which say, however, to this Convention, that quiet as should not now be discussed. But, Sir, for reawe, from the Old Colony, may have been in this sons that have been stated, in the course of this discussion, it has not been because we have had debate, I feel that great injustice has been done no anxiety upon this question, for we have been, to us, and I am exceedingly anxious that it and are exceedingly anxious that justice should should not be continued, but that justice should be done. I stated, when I had the floor before, be done. Therefore I am in favor of recommitin alluding to remarks made by the gentleman ting this subject, hoping that the committee to for Berlin, (Mr. Boutwell,) he admitted that which it shall be committed, will elaborate, as there had been a great inequality in representa- has been said, a proposition, from the light which tion, and in the distribution of political power in has been thrown upon this matter, that may be that branch of the government, under the present acceptable to all of us, at any rate, one that will

Wednesday,]

HATHAWAY - ALLEN – EAMES.

(June 29th.

approach nearer to the principles of justice, than forth, and we who were listeners, were obliged to the one from which, under the present Constitu- draw from it such inferences as we could. tion, we are suffering great injustice.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I ask if what I said was In reference to other matters, I restrain myself not true, that the majority of the delegates upon here, though I may hereafter have something to the floor of this House were not the representasay upon the propositions which have been sub- tives of a minority of the people? mitted, and upon the remarks made by the gen- Mr. ALLEN. Certainly, I would not questleman for Berlin, (Mr. Boutwell). I had hoped tion the truth of any assertion which the gentlethat a portion of the eternal principles of justice man would make upon this floor. I know his would be dealt out to us, and that no one, living regard for truth too well not to know that every either in this or any other section of the State, statement which he makes is intended to be perwould wish to ask of us of the Old Colony, that fectly grounded in that respect. which is unjust, or require us to yield to them Let me say that it is easy to object to any that which they would not be willing to yield to scheme of representation which can be offered, us. Hence, I hope the matter will be recom- come from what quarter it may; but much more mitted, and that all the propositions which may difficult to present a more perfect plan. I have be presented up to the time when that Commit- been looking, for days, to the direction from which tee shall report, will be committed to them. the gentleman from Freetown comes, for the pre

Mr. ALLEN, of Worcester. I cannot see that sentation of a scheme of representation which any good will result from the recommitment of shall be more acceptable than those which have this matter, which has been the subject of debate been offered ; and I now ask, that instead of refor so many days before this Convention. It will committing this matter, they will now offer their throw the whole subject back, and at some future matured plan. We will, I am sure, go into Comday, when the committee shall have reported, we mittee of the Whole, if the gentlemen desire it, shall commence discussion upon it “de novo." and examine the scheme which they may have I suggest to my friend from Freetown, (Mr. to present, as a substitute for that which is now Hathaway,) that some other mode of meeting this before the Convention. question should be adopted. I do not belong to Let me say one word upon the subject of the either of the four western counties of the State, injustice of which the gentleman from Freetown which, it is said, will obtain an undue share of has complained. He knows very well that whatrepresentation by the adoption of some one of ever basis of representation we shall adopt, must the plans which have been proposed. I am dis- be a matter of compromise, unless we resort to posed to examine the propositions which come the district system, which I hope we shall not do from different portions of the State, and finally to in any event. If the gentleman will take the accept the best scheme which may be offered. If amendment which was offered by the gentleman no better plan of representation is brought for- from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) and which is now beward, than that which has been offered by the fore the Convention, and will take his pen and gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) I certainly paper, he will find that that amendment gives to may adopt his; and it seems to me, that our Plymouth County, to which he has referred, a friends who belong to that part of the State from greater proportionate representation than the which the gentleman from Freetown comes, in- county of Middlesex, almost equal to that of stead of intimating, as he did, that which sounds the county of Worcester, and more than its proso much like nullification, should give to every portion of the representation of the whole Comscheme that may be presented here, and to those monwealth if the representation were based upon which have been already presented, that consid- population. eration to which they are entitled, and should Without trespassing further upon the time of present their own more perfect plan.

the Convention, I commend these suggestions to Mr. HATHAWAY. I would inquire of the the consideration of the gentleman from Freegentleman what statement I made which ap- town, and ask him not to complain of injusproached at all to nullification. Surely, I in- tice, when, as yet, no proposition coming from him, tended no such language.

or from his friends, has been rejected, for they have Mr. ALLEN. I am glad that the gentleman had given us no opportunity of passing upon them. no such meaning. I referred to the antagonistic Mr. EAMES, of Washington. I am opposed position which he represented the “Old Colony" to recommitting this subject to a special comand “ Massachusetts Bay" to occupy, and the in-mittee. I have sat here a number of days patimation of some desperate remedy. What that tiently, to hear what might be said for and against remedy was to be was only fearfully shadowed | it. There must be some time for us to bring our Wednesday,]

BUTLER.

(June 29th.

deliberations to a close. It is now a little more wealth should be equally represented, and therethan eight weeks since we commenced our duties fore he wants this matter recommitted to a comin this Convention for revising the Constitution, mittee composed of one from each county, in and I cannot see that we are any nearer to the order that each portion of the Commonwealth close of our labors here, unless it is that we are may be equally represented in population. Now, nearer the end of time. Now, Sir, I am willing the proposition of a committee of one from each that any person who has a plan, shall propose it, county is much more unjust than any proposition and to sit here and hear it discussed, but we gain that I have introduced here, for he proposes to nothing by a recommitment. This matter is as put this question of representation into the hands well before us as it will be before a committee. of a committee, one of whose members shall repIf it is recommitted to a select committee all these resent the county of Dukes with a population of subjects which have been discussed in the Con- only four thousand, and one, and one only, of vention must be brought forward and discussed whom shall represent the great county of Suffolk, in that Committee, and whenever it comes into with a population of 145,000 inhabitants. He this Convention upon the Report, the whole proposes to have that committee fix a basis which ground will be gone over again. I hope for these he expects we shall adopt, and he means that that reasons that we shall not recommit it, but pro- committee which fixes the basis of “eternal jusceed, in this Convention, to do what we have to tice" shall represent different portions of the do in regard to it.

State in the ratio of 4,000 to 145,000. Mr. BUTLER, of Lowell. I trust I shall not Now, Sir, again, he proposes that the county of infringe the rules of this House, so well and Nantucket, with 8,000 inhabitants, shall stand properly put to the Convention by its presiding upon this committee which is to consult upon the officer. Although I may be strongly tempted to “eternal justice” due to Bristol, with the same say a word in regard to the discursive remarks of power as the 74,000 inhabitants of Bristol itself. the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) But why did the gentleman choose counties for I will endeavor to make them exactly fit to the the basis of his committee ? For the same reason question in some one of their bearings.

that I chose towns, because they were in the habit He says it is best to recommit this subject to a of going together. He proposes that we should committee of one from each county, in order to commit to a committee of fourteen, eight of whom get at an equal basis of representation, or, as he represent only 300,000, and six of them represent expressed it, to get “eternal justice.” Well, 600,000 population ; he proposes to give them then, he says there is apparently a kind of con- the entire control of the eternal principles of jusspiracy-for that is the fair import of his language tice, and if that is not done, why then the gentle-on the part of what was Massachusetts proper man hints at something which sounded very much and the Old Colony.

like nullification. But as the gentleman seems, Mr. IIATHAWAY. The gentleman may use by his reply to the gentleman from Worcester, my language, but if he says that is an inference (Mr. Allen,) to have forgotten after dinner what of his, and not my language, it is all very well. he said before, I will ask him what he did mean But if he undertakes to make the charge that I when he said that if they did not get “eternal used the word “conspiracy," I should thank him justice," Esau would break the yoke of Jacob? to point it out.

It sounded to me amazing strange. I ask him Mr. BUTLER. I was afraid to use the gen- what he is going to do with the Old Colony? Is tleman's language, lest I should travel out of the he going back to the old colonial state? Are we rule. But as he wants his language, I will tell to have another Hartford Convention upon a dihim what he did say. He said that the Old minutive baby-like scale? Does he speak for the Colony was the elder brother Esau, and Massa- reform men of the Old Colony? I trust in God, chusetts was the Jacob that got the brother's not, because I do not believe there is any such birthright for a mess of pottage. I remembered feelings between the various sections of the Comthat Jacob and Rebecca, by a hotch-potch of kid mon wealth. skins and kid soup, defrauded Esau of his birth- The PRESIDENT. The Chair must remind right, therefore, I came to the inference objected the gentleman that he is travelling somewhat to. That is all. (Laughter.] Now I was not beyond the question. aware that Massachusetts had given any goat soup

Mr. BUTLER. I confess it, mea culpa peccavi, to the “Old Colony."

but, Mr. President, I had very strong temptation. But what does the gentleman want? He says Now, Sir, I trust that this subject will not be he wants “ eternal justice” for the Old Colony, recommitted. What will be the effect of it ? and that the various portions of the Common- There is this radical division between the parties

Wednesday,]

BUTLER.

(June 29th.

in this Convention, and hope the division is, I listened with pleasure upon the one hand and by no manner of means, in the middle. One with pain on the other,— because I knew his disdivision is that to which my friend from Boston, position to advance his argument upon a correct (Mr. Giles ;) my friend who addressed the Con- data,- yesterday, to the argument of the gentlevention this morning from Ipswich, (Mr. Has- man from Duxbury, (Mr. Weston). I concur kell,) and to which my friend from Freetown, with him entirely when he says he desires to see (Mr. Hathaway,) also, are wedded ; and that is the equal and exact justice done to all sections of the district system. A small House, and the district Commonwealth, and I think he will concur with system, is the one side. On the other side there me, when he comes to look at this table, that it seems to be a disposition to stand by town repre

will be of no avail to send this matter to a comsentation. Here are the two extremes. Now mittee, because so far as the county from which send this subject to the Committee, and what do he comes is concerned, he cannot complain of a you get ? On the one side you will have more want of a proper proportion of political power or less of those who believe in a small House, under the plan which I have proposed. and a basis of voters upon population. On the Now, Sir, I repeat, what will you gain by sendother side, you will have those who are in favor of ing this matter to a committee: You cannot take town representation. Well, Sir, where are we? any system that will insure perfect equality of

This Convention, by a vote which seemed to representation, unless you take the district system, settle the matter, if it meant anything, have deter- and no man believes for a moment, that the Conmined that they will not adopt equal districts as a vention will take that. Sir, I believe my friend basis of representation, and then, on the other from Boston, who spoke this morning, was wild, hand, without the offensive lauguage of having when he said our constituents sent us here to “it crammed down our throats by the small make a district system of representation. But, I towns,” there seems to be a disposition by what repeat, you cannot take any system that will be I hope, is the reform party, the party of progress, exactly equal as regards population, unless you in this Convention, to give town representation take the district system, and on the other hand, a prominent place in the system which we shall you cannot make any system that will be accepted adopt. That is the state of things; these are the by the people of the Commonwealth which is not feelings of gentlemen upon one side and upon commended to them by long usage, by their the other, and what will you gain by your Com- knowledge, by their tradition, if you please. mittee. That Committee will represent the same Now, Sir, here is a system before you, for which dispositions, the same feelings and views which I have no feeling of partiality, except, that I we have here in the Convention, and why cannot believe it is a system of compromise which will we settle the matter here as well as there? Iunite all the opposing and conflicting minds upon have had some little experience in this matter of this subject that can be united by any plan. The compromising an important subject by means of a moment you step farther than this will carry you, committee-by your kindness, Mr. President. One you will abandon town representation and adopt would not naturally suppose, that upon a com- the district system. The moment you step farther, mittee of thirteen, there could be more than thir- you have the small towns without representation, teen minds, still there may be. I was somewhat and I feel that I have a right to speak for the amused the other day by a proposition indicated small towns. I am ready to yield this much to by the gentleman from Lynn, (Mr. Hood,) in them, and in this, I know I represent the wishes relation to this subject, and I suppose I may allude of the people whom I have the honor to represent to it by way of illustration. He says send this upon this floor. The people of Lowell are willing subject to a committee composed of the sixteen to concede this much for town representation ; gentlemen who have offered propositions in rela- and the city I have the honor to represent is not tion to it. Why, Sir, you might as well send by any means one of the small towns. It is as sixteen babies to their mothers, and get them to large as Freetown, if you please, or any other of make a unanimous report upon which was the your towns. And I say, to the gentleman from prettiest. (Laughter.] One could be done as Freetown, and those who think with him, upon 80^n as the other. It is utterly impossible. this matter, you cannot expect any support or There would be no hope, no chance of agreement. comfort, in this Convention, or out of it, from And it will be precisely the same in a committee those persons who believe in, and who are in composed of one from each of the counties. You some degree wedded to town representation. And will have the same number of different minds and when I say this, I trust I shall be understood as and the same difficulty in getting them to agree uttering no threat to any one. upon any plan.

Sir, I am wedded to no particular view of this

Wednesday,]

BUTLER.

(June 29th.

matter. Give me a plan which shall seem to be hence, they will bring forward a proposition and better than mine, and if my scheme is not taken the whole subject will again be opened. We by the Convention I will go for it, heart and shall again have the same fight for the district hand. I am not going to nullify and vote for sytem on the one hand, and for town representasomebody else, if my scheme is rejected. I have tion on the other, and we shall find ourselves, no threats to make. If my scheme is not accept- upon this subject, back where we were when we able to the Convention, give me another that shall commenced. No, Sir, let us not recommit it; prove a more acceptable one, and I will be found let gentlemen who have propositions which they instant in season and out of season, pressing it desire to offer, offer them here; let us try the forward. But, Sir, when I see the glistening question, and I trust we shall find that there is satisfaction which I saw when this motion to no disposition upon the part of any one to do inrecommit was brought forward; when I see such justice. satisfaction as I saw glistening upon the face of I am glad to have my attention called to one my friend from Suffolk, (Mr. Morey,) I shall very consideration in connection with this subject. It much distrust any such proposition. I shall very was said, when this motion to recommit was made, much distrust it when I find that we are threatened that there was a disposition upon the part of if we undertake to carry this scheme forward, the friends of town representation, to force a vote. with a "power" behind us. Where is that Sir, I have admired the course which those who power? Show me that power and I will vote for are the most deeply interested in town representhe motion to recommit. But I am not to be tation have taken upon this subject. The gentlefrightened by this "power" that the gentleman men who represent the small towns upon this (Mr. Hathaway) talks of in Bristol. Sir, I repeat, floor have sat quietly and allowed every-body to what power is it? Where has it been felt? Is it talk themselves. We have waited in Comthat "power" which elected two governors from mittee as long as as any body would speak, or as Bristol: Sir, we have grappled with that power, long as any one would offer propositions, and and have throttled it, so there is no trouble to be there is certainly no occasion to recommit on that apprehended from that quarter, and therefore, I do account. We have waited until no man would not think I shall vote for this recommitment for speak upon the question, and until we had reason fear of that “power." I am led almost to digress to suppose there was no one behind, who would into the expression of a feeling of hostility towards bring forward any other proposition, and could Bristol, because of the aggravations we have had we have done otherwise under such circumstances from that quarter ; but, Sir, I make no such than to have taken the vote? Sir, I do not deexpression, for I have no such feeling.

sire to check discussion upon this subject. I am Mr. President, as a member of this Convention glad to hear any discussion upon the subject. I am from the county of Middlesex, I have laid down, glad to see any proposition brought forward, and I have given away more in my proposition, from 1 hope no gentleman who has a proposition which the county of Middlesex, than is given up by any he prefers, will hesitate to bring it forward for other proposition, from any other county in the fear it will not get votes enough. No, Sir, let us State, and will your committee do more? Gentle have all the propositions brought forward. “ In a men have said that we have taken the lion's share multitude of counsellors there is safety," and in the for Lowell. Judge ye when ye look at the votes. I multitude of propositions we shall be more likely have given away much of the power which Lowell to arrive at the true one. Again, I say, let us might justly have claimed, and will your com- have all the propositions brought forward. Let mittee do more? Sir, I will do

hing for

us not vote in the dark—but above all things, let compromise and harmony, except to be threatened us not recommit this subject to another commitor to be bullied, but I will not do that, nor will I tee, for fear that there is still some proposition suffer it. I will not be frightened from my pro- yet undiscovered which will be brought to light priety by any such talk, and I trust gentlemen and which will unite the conflicting views of the will find that it is not the best course to gain favor members of this Convention. I trust we shall for their motion to recommit, by telling us that if go on with our business, otherwise the long days we do not do such and such things, there is a of summer will be over and find us here in this power behind us. There is a power behind us hall, no further advanced than we are now. Aye, Sir, there is a power above us, which has Is there a gentleman here who has not made up watched over us day and night.

his mind upon this subject : If there is such a Now, Sir, I trust this subject will not be re- man, that is a reason why it should be recomcommitted, because we have no time for it. If mitted. But if there is not, then I take it we you appoint this committee a week or a fortnight have settled upon either the town or district sys

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