tem of representation, and what shall we gain by a recommitment? It is my most earnest desire that no man, who is favorable to this Convention, or who is opposed to it, either one or the other, will support this motion.

Mr. DAVIS, of Plymouth. It seems to me that I am called for, in some measure, as one of the members of this Convention from the Old Colony, to say a few words. I regret very much that any particular portion of the State should have been brought before the Convention, and especially so at this stage of our proceedings, upon this subject. I regretted the motion made by the gentleman from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) this morning, and I regretted more that it should have been supported by the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) in the manner in which he saw fit to press it this morning. I have no sectional interest to represent in this Convention. I hold no member responsible for the statements of another from the same, nor from a different section of the State. And for one, I did not consider, until called out by the gentleman from Lowell who has just taken his seat, that another member from the Old Colony was called upon to disclaim the threats, for I could consider them nothing else, announced to the Convention this morning by the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway).

The PRESIDENT. It is hardly in order for the gentleman to use that phrase. The Chair understood no threats to have been made.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, Sir, I am merely repeating the language of the gentleman who has just taken his seat, (Mr. Butler). But, Sir, I will not call them threats, I only say that to me they had very much that bearing and appearance.

I said that I regretted that the gentleman from New Bedford felt called upon to make this motion to recommit this morning, but after the motion has been made, after what has been said, and after the feeling which cannot but have arisen, to a certain extent, in the minds of the members of the Convention, I think it would, perhaps, be well that the motion should now prevail.

It has been asked by the gentleman who last spoke, and by the gentleman who spoke before him, why those who were opposed to the Report of the majority of the Committee, and opposed to the proposition put forward by the gentleman from Lowell, did not submit another proposition? Well, Sir, I have to say for one, that I have not yet been convinced that it is proper, that it is expedient, that it is honest, or that it is right to submit this proposition to the people; but, notwithstanding that opinion, I have sat here in accordance with what I yesterday announced as

[June 29th.

the plan under which I came to this Convention, to say nothing unless it should become absolutely necessary-to make no set speech if I could help it. I have been willing to sit here day after day, and week after week, and hear others, and to draw what light I could from their experience and reflection. I am willing to acknowledge the fairness with which the debate has been conducted. I have seen no evidence of a disposition upon the part of the majority to limit the discussion or to force a vote upon any question connected with this subject. But I do believe that the small towns ask too much. I believe the people of Massachusetts-the good sense of the people of Massachusetts-is more ready to sanction a plan which shall secure equality of representation than they are to see the distinct representation of the towns preserved. But, Sir, if I believed, as many members of this Convention seem to believe, that whatever we do, whether right or wrong, the people are ready to sanction, I should have much less respect for the people than I have now. I do not believe the people are going to follow the dictates of this Convention without regard to the measures it recommends.

But, Sir, as I said before, having, with others, sat here without saying a word, but willing to see the Report of the majority of the Committee perfected as much as possible; willing that the friends of that Report should make what amendments they should think advisable, from time to time, as the discussion continued, rather than drive their friends into opposition to it; having deemed that the question would soon be taken; having seen that no scheme was to be presented by the friends of this Report; being satisfied by the course of the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) who has just taken his seat, and from that of the friends of his plan, that there was no disposition upon their part to force this amendment through, and not having seen any plan or scheme presented by which the different parts of the State-the different counties of the Statecould secure anything like equal representation in the House of Representatives, it seems not improper to me that this whole subject should be committed to a committee consisting of one from each county. And without intending to endorse or to argue the views which have been presented by any of the various gentlemen who have spoken upon one side of this question or the other, in support of the country against the town, or town against country, and, without overlooking the arguments which have been presented to show why town representation should exist under our Constitution, or that exact numerical equality is impossible, and perhaps not desirable, I would

suggest that whatever may be the principles or the policy of gentlemen upon this floor, I do believe that this Convention have got to see to it that between the different sections of the State there is something like equality of representation, in proportion to the population, preserved. Gentlemen must look at this as a principle which cannot be left out of consideration, whatever their feelings may be with reference to separate town representation. They must look at it as a fact, and as a practical consideration. It is a principle that still exists, and if the Convention keep it out of sight, in the determination of this question, the people will not overlook it.

But allusion has been made to the county of Barnstable

It is not in order for the

The PRESIDENT. gentleman to discuss that subject.

Mr. DAVIS. I merely call the attention of the Convention to it as a reason why the subject should be recommitted. I am not arguing anything fully. I am only going to state, that under this proposition the county of Barnstable, with about thirty-three thousand population, is to have fourteen representatives in a year, while another county, with three thousand less, is to have twenty representatives. I ask gentlemen of the Convention whether this is not a fact which people will look at; and whether they believe that the people of the county of Barnstable or Bristol are to be blinded for the next six months. If that be the case, if there is an inequality apparent, I say that it is a reason

The PRESIDENT. The Chair must remind the gentleman that he is not speaking strictly to the question.

Mr. DAVIS. I say that the reason I have given is a sufficient one for submitting this whole question to a committee, consisting of one from each county. I will trouble the Convention with no further remarks.

Mr. HOOPER, of Fall River. For one I am not in favor of the reference to the committee as proposed by the gentleman who made the motion, and before I sit down I shall move to amend that motion. It will be recollected, that on the very first day of the session of this Convention, a similar motion was made to raise a committee of one from each county, to which I then objected, and moved an amendment which was not adopted, and a committee of one from each county was adopted by an overwhelming majority. That set a precedent for committees to be raised here, and I presume my friend from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) acted in conformity to the precedent established upon that occasion. I am in favor of recommitting this subject to a special

[June 29th.

committee, for this reason, among others. In looking at the amendment of the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) I am unable to comprehend to its full extent precisely what it means, and I think that it should be recommitted in order to bring out precisely what the gentleman intends, so that we may all understand it. It seems to me that the language of the first paragraph is exceedingly obscure, so that it appears to be as capable of one interpretation as of another. Several amendments have been adopted, but I do not know really what they are, and for that reason, among others, I should hope that this subject might be recommitted. Gentlemen say that they have sat here day after day, waiting for a plan to be proposed from others as a substitute for this. What have we seen here? Have we not seen every individual proposition voted down as it came in, simply because it was an individual proposition? Every man in this Convention may propose a plan and it will go through the same process. It will amount to the same thing.

The PRESIDENT. It is not in order for the gentleman to refer to the proceedings in Committee of the Whole.

Mr. HOOPER. I think I am in order-as the Chair will see when I come to make the application.

The PRESIDENT. The Chair suggests to the gentleman that the remark made by him, that the Convention will vote down any pla, is not strictly in order.

Mr. HOOPER. The object of the recommitment of this subject is this. It is not likely that any other plan will be presented which will change the views of the Convention. It will be seen that every plan has been voted down, and I have no reason to doubt that this will be the case with all the individual plans which may be presented. A report made by a special committee may possibly combine the views of a larger portion of the Convention, and that is one reason why I think this subject should be recommitted. I am exceedingly anxious that some plan should be presented upon which we can all act togethersome proposition with which I can go home to my constituents and give them good and sufficient reasons why it should be adopted in preference to the plan already in existence. I should like any gentleman just to show me what kind of an argument I can present in favor of the proposition which the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) has presented here, and which I can furnish to my constituents as a reason why it should be adopted in preference to the existing system. I believe, if gentlemen will suffer this subject to be recommitted, that a plan may be so combined out

of the various propositions presented here, that it may be carried almost unanimously. The gentleman from Charlestown, (Mr. Thompson,) has presented a plan much more just and equal in every respect than that of the gentleman from Lowell, and I believe, if it can be presented by even a minority of the committee, would command the assent of a large portion of the members of this Convention. It is for this reason that I wish to see this matter recommitted, but I hope, if recommitted, it may not receive the fate of another matter, which I had the honor of reporting, and which was recommitted to a committee. I move to amend the proposition so as to refer this subject to a committee of one from each congressional district.

Mr. FRENCH, of New Bedford. I accept the amendment.

Mr. BATES, of Plymouth. Contrary to my determination not to address this Convention, I wish to say a word upon this question. For one, I hope that none of these representations with regard to the Old Colony, will have any effect upon this Convention. I assure the Convention that the Old Colony is a very harmless place, and the people there are a peace-loving people, and there need be no apprehension of danger from that quarter. In answer to the inquiry of the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) whether the representation of the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) is a representation of the reform members of the Old Colony, I say, emphatically, no. I have only a few words to say upon this point, and they are strictly to the question. I will try not to trespass upon the rule. In the first place, it is proposed to recommit this whole question which has been under discussion three weeks, to a committee of one from each congressional district. How is that committee to be constituted? By the Chair, without doubt, and in two or three days we shall have that committee appointed. So much time has been lost. Then the different projects which have been presented here will go to that committee, and as many other propositions as individuals see fit to present. The result is, that after a deliberation of some week or two, the committee present a plan to the Convention. What course does the Convention take? The report is ordered to be printed, and then it is referred to the Committee of the Whole. We then go through the same process which has been repeated here for the last three weeks, and each individual case comes up in its turn to be considered, and be adopted or rejected. Then we are precisely in the situation in which we find ourselves at present. I hope that we shall go on with this matter now.

This

[June 29th.

Convention is as ready to decide upon this question now, as at any other time. If this project is right or that one wrong, this Convention is just as competent to settle upon the one which is right, at the present, as at any future time. I regret, exceedingly, the course which this debate has taken within the last two hours, as it seems to be of a strictly sectional character in regard to the Old Colony, whether, under the Charter of William and Mary she had a certain proportion of her rights or not. This is a question which may be discussed at some future time. As it regards these intimations that there is to be any danger from the Old Colony if this subject is not recommitted, I can assure the Convention, that no fears need be apprehended upon that subject, and if any difficulty is anticipated from that section of our Commonwealth, those apprehensions have no foundation in fact.

Mr. GARDNER, of Seekonk. The other day, when the question of loaning the credit of the State was before the Convention, my excellent friend on my right, (M. Hooper,) entertained one opinion in regard to it, and the gentleman from Taunton, (Mr. Morton,) precisely an opposite opinion. Both of these gentlemen are from the same county as myself, and both of them represent, as they suppose, the views of the people of that county, and yet their opinions upon that question seemed to be entirely different. With regard to the question now before the Convention, I do not know the opinions of my colleagues from the county from which I came, any farther than they have been expressed by the gentleman on my right. I presume that they do not wish to obtain any advantage which the people have not in other sections of the Commonwealth. I believe that they are a free and liberal minded people, and the people of Bristol County and the Old Colony, in wishing justice done to them, would like to see the like justice done to the whole Commonwealth. I believe, noth withstanding the remarks of the gentleman from Freetown, (Mr. Hathaway,) that the county of Bristol would sooner lose a representative from that section of the State, than gain one surreptitiously or improperly from any other section of the State. Therefore, I cannot fully agree with the remarks which have been made by the gentleman from Freetown. I do not believe, that generally speaking, there can be the feeling manifested among the people which the gentleman supposes there will be, provided this amendment of the gentleman from Lowell shall be adopted. With regard to this proposition for recommitting this subject, I am rather in favor of such recommitment. I support it for the reason which has been

expressed by other gentlemen upon this floor, because I have a sort of pet proposition of my own to offer. I submitted it the other day, but it happened to be at a very unfortunate hour, just before the Convention adjourned, and there was no time for any gentleman, if so disposed, to look at it all and see if it contained any merits. It was voted down instanter. For the sake of having that proposition referred to a committee, I would be in favor of the recommitment of this subject, if for no other reason. I hope, therefore, that the whole subject may be recommitted to a committee; but it seems to me it would be better to refer it to a committee of one from each county, instead of one from each congressional district, as proposed by the gentleman from Fall River, (Mr. Hooper).

The PRESIDENT. The gentleman from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) has accepted the amendment.

Mr. GARDNER. I think the first proposition was the best, because the committee would have been larger.

Mr. PHINNEY, for Chatham. Mr. President: I rise to oppose the motion of the member from New Bedford, (Mr. French,) because I believe it will greatly delay the business of the Convention to recommit the subject now under discussion to a Special Committee. Should the motion of the gentleman prevail, some days would be required by the committee to prepare another report, and then the whole subject of representation, which has been under discussion nearly ten days, will be presented anew, and it will be necessary to go over the whole ground again. And permit me, Mr. President, to say a few words about the great solicitude which seems to be felt by certain members of this Convention for the injustice done to the Old Colony, and more especially that portion of it which I have the honor to represent. I see no cause for the alarm manifested in the plan submitted by the gentleman from Lowell, (Mr. Butler,) and I shall support it, after being slightly modified.

My long and intimate acquaintance with the citizens of Barnstable County, convinces me that they are, first, in favor of town representation; and second, that their strong objection to the district system would compel me to oppose it as their humble representative, although it has received the support of some of the ablest members of this Convention. If the system of town representation cannot be agreed upon by a majority of this Convention, I hope some system will be adopted which will approximate the nearest to it. Very much of the sympathy which has been manifested for Barnstable and Plymouth, in comparison with

[June 29th.

| Franklin, comes, it seems to me, from members representing the large towns and cities of the Commonwealth, and is not entitled to very great weight, while it has, apparently, for its object, the uniting the small towns into representative districts.

Mr. President: I am aware that I have not confined my remarks strictly to the subject under consideration, which is that of recommitment; but I had reason to believe the Convention would indulge me in a few words, as I have not previously spoken upon this subject. I have much preferred to be a listener to the eloquence of others and profit by their experience. I shall therefore be content, for the most part, with giving a silent vote upon the great questions which are to be submitted to the people for their final decision.

The PRESIDENT. The Chair must remind the gentleman that he is not strictly in order, and that he should confine his remarks to the question immediately pending before the Convention.

Mr. PHINNEY. I rose merely to say that I was opposed to the recommitment of this subject, and that I believed the Report, as presented by the gentleman from Lowell, will meet the views of the section of country from which I come.

Mr. GRISWOLD, for Erving. The question immediately before us is, upon the recommitment of this subject to a Special Committee. Having had the honor to be chairman of the Committee to which this subject was referred, I thought it proper for me to say a word or two at this time. I wish to say here, so far as I am personally concerned, as a member of that Committee, or as chairman of that Committee, I am entirely indifferent upon this subject of the recommitment. I should like to have this matter take that course which will develop, by the discussion here, whether it goes to one committee or the other, the plan which will be most acceptable to the people of all portions of the Commonwealth. I have no other feeling or motive in this matter. But is it best to refer this subject to a new committee, the original committee, or any committee. It seems to me that such a course would not be advisable. The original committee, as is well known, had this matter under discussion some two or three weeks, the result of which was the presentation of the two Reports which have been under discussion here for two or three weeks. If this matter is sent back to a new committee, or any committee, in what situation will it be? Why, here are some seventeen propositions which have been liberally discussed by this Committee, either in Convention or Committee of the Whole. Now, I undertake to say, that this Convention will never be much better prepared to express