Commissioner COLLIER. Mr. Marshall thinks that the earlier record. disposed of the Crooked Creek question and that it does not need to be touched.

Mr. MARSHALL. Yes.

Commissioner COLLIER. In addition to that, Mr. Marshall, of all our headquarters men, was the individual most frequently on the Klamath Reservation, and closest in contact with its personnel, its atmosphere, and all that. Mr. Marshall, like myself, commenced as. a "thick and thin" advocate and protagonist of Mr. Crawford; and I think he might well use the remaining minutes of his time by giv-. ing you what he knows about the personnel situation. Because it was due to personnel matters largely that Mr. Crawford was dismissed.

The CHAIRMAN. At a former hearing, Mr. Marshall, there were two points, to my mind, represented rather definitely. One was a criticism of policy, if not violation of law. That has been covered in a fairly thorough way. The second point was the interference of the Office in Mr. Crawford's dealings with the personnel or, rather, criticism of his dealings or his not having a proper hand to handle matters as he saw proper out there; and an obvious charge, as I understood, that certain persons had been transferred or discharged and the transfer or discharge assigned to Mr. Crafword. If you care to make any comment on that matter, you have that privilege.. Mr. MARSHALL. Thank you. Mr. Crosthwait has the specific answers to the personnel discharges; and I shall not go into that mat

ter.

But it seemed to me that the minutes of last week's record totally missed the condition of terror and fear under which the employees. on the reservation were working because of Mr. Crawford's attitude as superintendent. After my first visit to the Klamath, I had tremendous admiration for Mr. Crawford, and I made a very eulogistic statement about him. At that time some of the employees indicated. that he was not as hot as I thought he was. However, subsequent visits to the reservation-and I spent a total of some 36 days there, during the time I was in the Indian Service-gave me a verydifferent opinion of Mr. Crawford. I even saw instances that occurred

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). I do not want to go into that. Mr. MARSHALL. I want to say briefly that the concentrated opinion of 90 percent of the Indians on the reservation, and my opinion also,. was that Mr. Crawford was dictatorial; and if the others differed with him in the least bit, he used abusive language and threatened to fire them, and so forth.

I suggest this committee not take my word or Mr. Crawford's word, but that the committee send out a letter of its own, in its own way, to each of the persons then employed there, and ask them what they thought of Mr. Crawford. My impression was that no governmental employee should be forced to work under a person who treated them as Mr. Crawford did.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me say to the committee that I have sufficient troubles in my own State, and I do not care to invade the West for labor troubles and employment troubles. If any of you want to go into this, I shall permit you this. But I do not want to go into this. unless there is some wrongdoing.

Mr. MARSHALL. That was basic to the charges by Mr. Crawford, though.

The CHAIRMAN. That again is a matter of discretion. And if Mr. Crawford was the superintendent out there, and was placed in a responsible position and had to do a job, I think he was entitled to exercise such influences as he thought proper to get the job done. And if anyone did not cooperate with him, I would not blame him for asking for their transfer. If he asked for transfers, I think he was in his rights, in such a case; and if people were found doing wrong things, I would not blame Mr. Crawford for asking for their release.

Mr. MARSHALL. But when all the employees

Mr. CRAWFORD (interposing). Will Mr. Marshall submit to the committee at this time the things that he has said about me? He is making a lot of statements about me, and I wish he would prove those statements.

Commissioner COLLIER. Mr. Crawford consumed a lot of time going into the details of what this, that, or the other action on personnel had been based on. We are prepared, either in testimony to the committee or in written form, to deal with the entire record which he dealt with. Mr. Crosthwait is here today, to do it now, or at some later date, or do it in a written report or in documentary form, as the committee decides.

Senator STEIWER. I suggest it be done in writing, Mr. Chairman. I have a feeling that if we permit oral testimony in respect to these small details, we shall be months doing it. I do not think there is any member of the committee who can afford to give many days to one matter of this kind, when there are so many legislative matters crying for our attention. For instance, I should like the committee to give consideration to three bills concerning the Klamath Tribe, to which I wish to call attention and ask for consideration at an early date. And I know there are many other bills that should be considered.

Mr. CRAWFORD. If there is anything in the Indian Office, up to date, that has anything to do with the charges against me, I think it should be put in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you; and let it be put in the record. Commissioner COLLIER. They will be put in the record.

Mr. CRAWFORD. I do not think it necessary for the committee to write to the employees at this stage of the game. If an investigation is desired, I suggest the committee go out to Klamath and make an investigation and talk to the people there, and the representatives of the lumber companies.

But what Mr. Marshall said about the employees, and up to the time when Mr. Collier made those charges: Now, it is perfectly silly to write to the employees now-all these people in the Government service. Do you suppose they are going to say anything about me, in opposition to Mr. Collier? If they did, they would lose their jobs, just like that.

Mr. MARSHALL. That is why I suggested the committee write, on its own.

Senator FRAZIER. How long were you in the Indian Service?

Mr. MARSHALL. About 311⁄2 years. I was first Director of Forestry and Grazing. Before that, I was in the United States Forest Service. And immediately previous to that, I had been doing some freelance work-exploring in Alaska and writing.

Senator FRAZIER. How long were you at Klamath?
Mr. MARSHALL. A total of 36 days.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Steiwer, have you anything further? Senator STEIWER. No. Let the record be prepared and examined by the members of the committee, first. I should like to have the privilege of submitting my suggestions later.

The CHAIRMAN. At this time the Department will have the privilege of completing the record as it cares to; and also Mr. Crawford will have the privilege of completing his record as he wishes. Then the record will be submitted to the committee; and perhaps at some later date there will be opportunity for further suggestions.

Mr. Crawford, when you complete the record, if you will file your suggestions or requests, the committee will consider those just as soon as possible.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Do I understand you are going to have another meeting with respect to this matter?"

The CHAIRMAN. Not until we have an opportunity to examine the record and hold an executive meeting of the committee. If the committee desires to go further, we may do so.

Senator FRAZIER. How long will it take you to put your statement in the record?

Commissioner COLLIER. If we are going to deal with personnelSenator FRAZIER (interposing). I mean what you feel is necessary. Commissioner COLLIER. It would certainly take more than an hour on that subject.

Senator FRAZIER. I meant to write out a statement.

Commissioner COLLIER. You mean to prepare a statement in writ

ing?

Senator FRAZIER. Yes.

Commissioner COLLIER. I know Mr. Marshall will do whatever he is going to do, before he leaves tomorrow night. And we shall expedite our material-a few days.

Mr. CRAWFORD. I should like Mr. Marshall to insert, for the record, the whole letter in the Algoma case.

Mr. MARSHALL. Yes; that will be done.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further to ask?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I should like to ask that the record be printed and become a public document.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will consider that.

STATEMENT OF BOYD JACKSON

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word?

The CHAIRMAN. Please give your full name, for the reporter. Mr. JACKSON. My name is Boyd Jackson. I have been charged by Mr. and Mrs. Crawford, here, with accepting bribes and that sort of stuff; and I believe it is a very important point.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this question: At the time this charge was made, that you accepted money-without regard to what you are claimed to have accepted the money for-please answer this question for me: Were you at that time a Government official, at

the time this controversy was taking place? Were you working for

the Government?

Mr. JACKSON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you employed by the Klamath Tribe in any capacity?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the capacity?

Mr. JACKSON. A member of the business committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, as a member of the business committee, Mr. Crawford has charged that you were employed by the lumber companies, to act for them in spreading certain propaganda and using your influence. Do you care to make any statement on that proposition?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the member of the committee who asked more questions with respect to that particular matter was Senator Wheeler. And, in fairness to Senator Wheeler, I think he should be here when this man makes a statement.

Commissioner COLLIER. May I say to Mr. Jackson that the charge was not initially made by Mr. Crawford, but by the Department. The CHAIRMAN. Against Mr. Jackson?

Commissioner COLLIER. Against Mr. Jackson. The action was taken by the Department; and there is a very full record on it, which we have offered for this record. Would it not suffice if Mr. Jackson dealt with the whole thing in a written reply of his own?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Commissioner, he was not an official of the Government; and I do not see where we have any authority to investigate the conduct of private individuals, although they may be members of a tribal council.

I do not believe that comes within our jurisdiction; and personally I do not want to get into it, unless the committee sees fit, by motion, to go into it. I regard this matter very much like somebody getting a franchise in some city for electric-light purposes, or a gas franchise, or some other franchise. Frequently there is a case where the company goes into a town and employs influential people to help them out. Whether or not that is wrong or right, I am not saying. But obviously, if there was bribery, there should be prosecution. However, it is not done, or I know of no case. If it is in the case of a public official, yes; a private official, no. And I do not see where

we can go into an investigation of the conduct of Indians. I do not think this committee is the guardian of the private conduct of Indians, or of white people, either. Personally I do not want to go into that.

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, that was my point. If the committee felt and desired that it should hear from me in answer to these charges, why, I would be perfectly frank to make such statement as might be necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, as it stands, the Department has a file in your case?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And the record stands that Mr. Crawford has made some statements, likewise, in your case.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. If you care to look over the record, as may be submitted by the Department, and also the statements made by Mr. Crawford, and then if you care to make any statement with respect to either or both of them, and request it, we shall give you an oppor tunity to reply. That gives you your day in court.

Mr. JACKSON. I am just putting it up to the committee. If you feel I should answer, I will.

The CHAIRMAN. We are hearing charges made here; and I do not prevent anyone from making a charge against a public official. But when they come before the committee, the committee will look into it. It is now 12 o'clock, and the committee will stand recessed.

(Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, an adjournment was taken, subject to call.)