Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Representative LEVER. For how many years?

Mr. WHITE. Ever since I have been in the field.

Representative LEVER. Have you made any protest down here to Washington before this time?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Representative LEVER. Why not?

Mr. WHITE. Because I was connected with the State department. It wasn't particularly my duty.

Representative LEVER. Wouldn't that be the very reason why you should do it?

Mr. WHITE. I presume it would.

Representative HAUGEN. This is the first opportunity you have had, isn't it?

Mr. WHITE. The first opportunity; yes, sir.

Representative HAUGEN. What is your official position?

Mr. WHITE. I am here representing Dr. Porter, of the department of foods and markets, who has charge of the seed investigation of the State food commission.

Mr. CHAPIN. May I ask Mr. White a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CHAPIN. Mr. White, do you know of any specific case where a cow died because of something she was fed?

Mr. WHITE. No; I said I didn't know specifically. That has been the report that I have heard.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you know that when cows are fed improperly any kind of feed, too large an amount or too concentrated, it is liable to make them sick and cause them to die?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHAPIN. It can be done with cottonseed meal, can't it?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. CHAPIN. And gluten feed?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you know that a large number of cattle in New York-you must know it in your work and in your study-are fed nothing but gluten feed or cotton seed?

Mr. WHITE. That is very unfair, Mr. Chapin. You musn't assume that the farmers don't know anything about feeding. There may be rare cases where that is so.

Mr. CHAPIN. I happen to know of my own knowledge of such cases, having lived in the State 25 years.

Mr. WHITE. Such cases are very rare indeed.

Mr. CHAPIN. Now, what you said about farmers buying mixed feed because they had to-you think that is actually so, that they could buy nothing but mixed feed?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHAPIN. What would that indicate?

Mr. WHITE. An inadequate supply of concentrates; that the supply of concentrates in some sections of the State was inadequate; that they couldn't get these concentrates to make up their feeds.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you know what concentrates were particularly lacking-bran ?

Mr. WHITE. No; I have known times when they didn't carry cottonseed meal.

Mr. CHAPIN. Was it that this last winter particularly?

Mr. WHITE. It has been for several years.

Mr. CHAPIN. Don't you know that this last winter we had a terrible blockade, and hardly anything could get through into New York State?

Mr. WHITE. That is a common condition that exists at some points all the time.

Mr. CHAPIN. Wasn't it better for them to get mixed feeds than to have the cattle starve?

Mr. WHITE. Yes; there is no doubt about that.

Mr. CHAPIN. Did they complain about that? Did these same farmers go on buying mixed feeds? Are they buying them now? Mr. WHITE. Very likely.

Mr. CHAPIN. Then they must like them, don't they?

Mr. WHITE. They may or may not. If a man went to the station to inquire for Dairy Men's League feed which was formulated by Dr. Savage, and he couldn't get anything else he would have to take whai he could get, and that was the case last winter.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you think that all the cows in New York State can be fed on the Dairy Men's League feed?

Mr. WHITE. I don't know about that. I think they ought to be fed on an equally good formula.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you know that there are a million and a half cows in New York Štate that don't eat approximately a ton a year of Dairy Men's feed?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. CHAPIN. Do you know that the whole production of brewers grain of Dairy Men's feed for farmers-I don't know whether it calls for distillers' grain, but it calls for malt products-do you know that there is not a sufficient supply of concentrates to provide a million and a half tons of dairy feed to the Dairy Men's League? Mr. WHITE. That may be so.

The CHAIRMAN. I think he made one pertinent statement, Mr. Chapin, that if they couldn't feed in accordance with that formula they ought to feed in accordance with some other good formula. That is what we are driving at.

Mr. WHITE. We are not particular as to the exact formula, just so it is a good formula.

The CHAIRMAN. Still there is no justification for the sale of worthless stuff.

Mr. CHAPIN. Don't you know that at the present time there is practically no bran at all in the country?

Mr. WHITE. We are aware of the fact that in New York we can't get it.

Mr. CHAPIN. Don't you know that for the past six months we have been selling substitutes and have had no wheat bran?

The CHAIRMAN. Right there, what substitutes have you been using?

Mr. CHAPIN. Oatmeal and cornmeal. They have been milling very little wheat relatively in the last six months. Many mills have had to shut down for two months. Bran is one of the staple feeds in this country, and by the milling regulations has been cut down 500,000 tons.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chapin, are you trying to make the point that there isn't enough feedstuffs to feed the cattle in the country?

Mr. CHAPIN. I mean not enough to provide the kind of rations they want. There is a particular shortage in bran.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that in order to maintain cattle and live stock we have got to feed stuff that is no account in order to keep them up?

Mr. CHAPIN. We have got to feed everything we have got.

The CHAIRMAN. Whether it is worthless or not?

You

Mr. CHAPIN. Whether it is worthless or not-I wouldn't say "worthless," because you can't feed anything that is worthless. might as well feed air.

The CHAIRMAN. That is just the point I am making. There are a great many feeds that have more or less feeding value and ought to be sold on their merits, but that they are not is what we are driving at. Your position would seem to lead to the conclusion that there is not enough nutritious food to feed the stock in the country, and therefore we have got to feed unnutritious stuff to them in order to maintain them, and that manufacturers of feed ought to have the right to sell unnutritious foods to farmers because this manufacturer can't furnish nutritious stuff. Your reasoning is aside from the mark.

Mr. CHAPIN. The point I wanted to make was that a certain amount of substitutes is necessary, just as in war bread we have to incorporate a certain amount of cattle feed. That is where it is going to. We have to eat cattle feed because it is used in flour, and in our dairy ration we have got to incorporate a certain amount of roughage. We may feed a little more grain or we may feed a little less, just so we get the same production of milk. The production of milk is only the question of giving the cow a certain amount of food pounds per day.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you admit that nothing ought to be put into food that detracts materially from its value?

Mr. CHAPIN, Why, we can't make the ration without detracting from the value. Bran detracts from the value of cottonseed meal and corn meal. Bran has only about five-eighths the value of corn meal.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it your contention that the poorest possible feedstuffs should be allowed to be sold at the high feed value merely because there isn't enough of the high feed value to go around?

Mr. CHAPIN. Feeding animals is just a question of calories. The German Nation has figured out that a man must have 1,500 calories a day or die, and a cow must have so many calories of feed, and it doesn't make any difference where they originate, if they are not obnoxious or repulsive or deleterious. It is all the same to the cow whether she gets a certain amount of calories out of oat hulls or whether she gets it out of corn meal, but the ration must be so that she will like it and eat it.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it all the same to the feed manufacturer if he sells to the farmer so that the farmer knows what he buys?

Mr. CHAPIN. I think the farmer knows what he buys, or he wouldn't buy it. The farmer don't have to buy any feeds unless he wants them. He can try them first and if he likes them he will buy them or otherwise discard them forever.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, they don't have to buy anything. They can let the cattle die.

Mr. CHAPIN. They buy of their own free will.

Representative HAUGEN. You say that there is a shortage of bran. Can you give the figures on that?

Mr. CHAPIN. There is a shortage on the milling schedule, a shortage of bran of over 500,000 tons, due to the fact that the factories have not been able to get any bran for about six months.

Representative HAUGEN. Why haven't they been able to get any

bran?

Mr. CHAPIN. Because the farm mills can't sell their flour to-day because nobody will buy their flour, because the price is fixed just like the price of a street car ticket, and why should they buy those things ahead? The mills are losing money hand over fist. They have got their warehouses full of flour and nobody will buy their flour.

Representative HAUGEN. The Federal Trade Commission reports the grinding of 550,000,000 barrels of flour in the last three years; that they are operating at a profit of 175 per cent, an increase of 100 per cent on their capital stock, and why make the statement that they are losing money?

Mr. CHAPIN. Because I know what I say is true. They will lose this year what they made last year. I am not a flour miller myself. Representative HAUGEN. I don't think such a misleading statement as that should go into the record. I am quoting figures from the Federal Trade Commission's report.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you got the figures there?

Representative HAUGEN. I gave the figures. The increase in profits over operating expense was 175 per cent, 100 per cent on the capital. Mr. CHAPIN. May I call your attention to the fact that there is no connection between the profits and prices and the available supply of materials? Unless the flour mill runs they don't produce any feed. The profits don't have anything to do with that, and they are exporting wheat now instead of milling it.

Representative HAUGEN. We are now grinding more flour than ever before, and we have more bran than ever before. Now, the question is: Is there a shortage of bran or is there a monopoly in this country? Mr. CHAPIN. There is no monopoly of bran. I can't find it if

there is.

Representative HAUGEN. Are the mills selling bran or are they monopolizing it?

Mr. CHAPIN. I went up to Buffalo and interrogated the millers up there about this situation, and one of them said he couldn't run because he had a warehouse full of flour. Another said he could hardly sell any flour, but could sell all the feed as fast as it was made. He only sold in the ordinary channels of trade, a little at a time, so as to make it go as far as possible. I know they are not milling flour. The CHAIRMAN. Not doing what?

Mr. CHAPIN. Not milling flour, because they can't sell the flour. Representative HAUGEN. They have been commandeering wheat, going out to the farmers and bringing the wheat into the market and sending it to the mill and grinding it all the time.

Mr. CHAPIN. Well, I believe I know the situation, and have plenty of gentlemen here that know that that is correct. At the present

time there is very little feed being produced, not half as much as should be. I know I can't buy any.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask a question about the Federal Trade Commission and its report on the flour situation. I was reading a report yesterday, and I think in 1911, 1912, and 1913 their average earnings per barrel were 13 cents; in 1917 52 cents, and this year a large percentage of them were earning from 25 to 40 cents a barrel. In 1914, I think it was, the net earnings on capital invested was 8.9 per cent on the part of the millers, and that this last year it was as high as 37 and 38 per cent, an increase of over 300 per cent; and they stated that even this year the earnings of the mills, speaking by and large, were fabulous, much more than during peace times.

Representative HAUGEN. Mr. Chairman, I was quoting from the report of last April, made by the Federal Trade Commission.

Mr. WARD. Senator, may I be permitted to suggest that all these analyses of these feeds, showing the inferior and poor material, were made in the prewar period, upon which these gentlemen from the agricultural colleges have made their reports, so that there was no absence of bran then that required the combination of these feeds with all this worthless stuff.

Representative HAUGEN. May I ask another question? I inferred from what you said that the pure, unadulterated products are not available; that there is a monopoly of them. Can any pure cottonseed meal be purchased?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Representative HAUGEN. Is that available to all manufacturers? Mr. WHITE. I don't know. So far as I know it is.

the

Representative HAUGEN. I understood you a short time ago that pure meal could not be had.

Mr. WHITE. In some sections it can not be procured. The dealers don't carry it.

Representative HAUGEN. Why don't they carry it?

Mr. WHITE. That I can not tell. I presume because they prefer to handle mixed feed, just as they refuse to carry, or did not carry in quantities sufficient, Dairy Men's League feed when it could have been gotten.

Representative HAUGEN. Have you made any investigation as to who owns and operates the manufacture of these mixed-food products? Do they have a monopoly on cotton seed?

Mr. WHITE. Why, no, sir.

Representative HAUGEN. Have the packers any connection with the manufacture of cottonseed meal?

Mr. WHITE. I don't know about that.

Representative HAUGEN. I understand that the packers own these cottonseed crushers that manufacture cottonseed meal, and that they own it and control it and have a monopoly on cottonseed meal.

Mr. WHITE. That is the rumor, but I know nothing about it myself. I have no personal knowledge of it. Our main contention is exactly as Dr. Jordan has stated, that we believe the farmers in our State have a right to know what they are buying.

The statement was made here that we have no scientific men among our farmers who are capable of mixing feed. We have simply hundreds and hundreds of college graduates scattered over the State of