deceive the people in oder to save the feed situation? That is the contention made in here by the gentleman who preceded you.

Mr. SMITH. They are selling these products in conformity with all the laws under which they are sold.

Representative HAUGEN. What about this law?

Mr. SMITH. I do not think it is necessary.

Representative HAUGEN. The gentleman who preceded you said it was going to embarrass you people; that it was going to practically destroy the feed situation in your State.

Mr. SMITH. I believe it is.

Representative HAUGEN. Then I presume you have some proof for it, based upon some facts of some kind. To allege a thing is one thing, and believe a thing is another thing.

Mr. SMITH. It is going to multiply the number of brands of feeds sold to a certain extent. You are going to have a lot of new products which very few of the farmers understand. They understand how to feed these old products.

Representative HAUGEN. I can not see that it either adds or detracts in the least. If you are selling an honest product, now, I assume the Secretary would say, "Go ahead, here is you permit." But, in my opinion, if you are selling corncobs or pure cottonseed meal, I think he would say, "I believe you need a little regulation." Mr. ABBOTT. Mr. Chairman, may I interject a remark at this time? The CHAIRMAN. There are a number of other witnesses to be heard. Suppose you wait until they have finished.

Representative HAUGEN. I am simply asking you the question.
Mr. SMITH. I contend that he is not selling corncobs.
Representative HAUGEN. That is all I wish to ask.

Mr. WARD. The gentlemen whom I represent--the National Milk Producers' Association and the National Live Stock Associationfor their information, would like to know by whose invitation you attend and present this argument at this hearing.

Mr. SMITH. I was called up last Friday afternoon by Mr. John Willard, who is a member of the Massachusetts Food Administration.

Mr. WARD. And under Mr. Chapman. Is he the Mr. Chapman in Food Administration circles here?

Mr. SMITH. I do not know. He is connected with the Food Administration office in Boston.

Mr. WARD. Has he charge of the administration of dairy foods in that State?

Mr. SMITH. To a certain extent I believe he has.

Mr. WARD. And is there an arrangement about paying your fares and expenses here?

Mr. SMITH. I do not know. I was asked by the president of the college to come down here.

Representative LEVER. Mr. Ward, that suggests the question, Who brings you here?

Mr. WARD. The National Dairymen's Association and the National Milk Producers' Association.

Representative LEVER. Who pays your expenses?

Mr. WARD. They do.

Representative LEVER. I do not ask that in a contentious spirit, but it seems to me these little personalities should not be interjected

into this discussion. The whole conference here is for the purpose of trying to work out a big problem, and I think it makes no difference who brought the gentleman here.

Mr. WARD. The gentleman wanted to know. I have no personal interest in these associations. I asked the question at the suggestion of the president of the National Live Stock Association.

Mr. ABBOTT. Who is he?

Mr. LASATER. I asked Mr. Ward to put that question.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us not get into that sort of thing. We will hear the other gentleman who wants to catch the train-Mr. Hepburn, I believe.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. K. HEPBURN, MANAGER UPLAND FARMS, IPSWICH, MASS.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hepburn, I understand you are a farmer? Mr. HEPBURN. Yes, sir. I came down here on my own resources. I have a few thoughts that I would like to bring to the attention of the meeting. We have gone over this thing in a somewhat more technical way than I am prepared to speak on it.

It has been my real good fortune for the past 10 years to have had under my personal charge as a usual thing never less than 150 cowsthe herd which was and is to-day the greatest herd of Guernseys in the United States, probably. In that herd we have had the benefit of the best of breeding selection. It has been our effort to try to increase the milk production, and to that end we have devoted our thought and time and the use of the best and most nutritious feeds that would give us the best results over a long period of time. Years ago we were able to buy the so-called straight dairy ration; we were able to get it at any of our New England stores. The dealer was. then enabled to carry it; he had capital to carry it on. Those feeds gave us very good satisfaction.

But as the years went by my own personal experience has been, and that of all the breeders and milk producers all over New England, as I have mingled with them, that these feeds that we were using were perhaps a little bit heavy, and we had to lighten them for the life of our cows, for a continuation year after year of high milk production. To-day we are able to go out and buy in our section of Massachusetts the so-called straight grains and mix them, but from a commercial standpoint we can not do this, as we find the dealer can not sell them at a price at which we can buy many of the so-called mixed rations, which to my own personal knowledge for the last several years have been used in the largest herds where world's records have been made. In many herds they are using straight rations and in many herds they are having lots of trouble, which perhaps will not interest you gentlemen here, as you are not cattle breeders.

Probably the greatest difficulty that is staring the dairy industry in the face to-day, particularly in regard to the pure-bred industry, is the nonbreeding of cattle. That is a serious question, gentlemen. It is one that has got to be considered. In many instances veterinarians have been devoting their time to the problem, the best in the country, with, to my own knowledge, very little relief.

Now, there must be a reason for that, and that reason to my mind is this and I am giving you not only my own ideas, but what I have collected from the leading breeders of New England. A large part of the difficulty is due to the way the cattle are fed, and our own herd at the present time has been put on a broader ration. I am willing to acknowledge that I am not adverse to the use of oat hulls and various by-products when they are properly blended, because I have learned that in a great many instances each of the individual articles in that prepared feed make the other articles more palatable. With cattle, as at the human table, we want a variation of food; we must have palatability, and in a great many instances I believe that the qualities of the feed that make a cow reproduce, that make a good healthy calf and make the cow breed again the following year, are things that the wide ration gives.

Take cotton seed. In New England we have a large number of small farmers who run dairies with six or eight cows. Invariably if they buy straight grains they also buy some cotton seed and one or two other feeds and mix them, but they do not get it broad enough. Consequently, as some of the men I see sitting around here now, you can see the ribs of the cows as far as you can see the cows.

The Armer is not to blame. He is doing the best he can. He can not buy a dozen different things and mix them; he can not do it. I am no an advocate of the ready-mixed feed, but I have used a good many of hem, and I do not see where they have been violating the laws of Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, or Rhode Island to any large extent.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, what knowledge have you as to whether or not they have violated the law? Have you been an inspector of feeds? I mean you are a farmer, are you not?

Mr. HEPBURN. I am a farmer; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you buy for your own use?

Mr. HEPBURN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you acted in any capacity that would bring you in contact with the mills?

Mr. HEPBURN. In many cases I have come in very close touch with the grain dealers and, the leading dairymen throughout New England, as we attend all dairy shows, and we naturally talk over the things that are essential to the welfare of the dairymen in New England.

The CHAIRMAN. Then your conclusion is that as far as Massachusetts and Maine and all the New England States are concerned these adulterations are not a serious evil?

Mr. HEPBURN. I have not been aware within the last few years or at any particular time that there was adulteration.

The CHAIRMAN. If that prevails in New England and other parts of the country, the dairymen would not have any objection to its being stopped, would they?

Mr. HEPBURN. Personally I would not. I am only talking from my own point of view. This having been brought to my attention I thought I would like to say a word, because my experience along the line of pure-bred stock

The CHAIRMAN. As to that phase of it, we appreciate the importance of having cattle fertile and reproductive, and undoubtedly

good feed tends. to that result, but I am not quite sure that that goes just to the point at issue.

Now, do you not think the sale of peanut hulls and sawdust prevails in your State?

Mr. HEPBURN. No, sir; I do not. I would not say that peanut hulls are not sold. It may possibly be done.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think that sawdust would contribute to the reproductivity of cattle in a breeding way?

Mr. HEPBURN. It would if they were bedded with it. If it were used for bedding instead of for feed it might help the production of milk.

The CHAIRMAN. You would object to it for feed, and not for bedding?

Mr. HEPBURN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I am glad that you have come here, because you say you are a farmer, but I would like to know who suggested your coming?

Mr. HEPBURN. Why, the matter was brought to my attention through the food commissioner in Boston.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is he?

Mr. HEPBURN. Mr. Chillum.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the gentleman that was here a minute ago? Mr. HEPBURN. The second last man that spoke.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is this food administrator? Is he appointed by some one here in Washington, or is that a State organization? Mr. HEPBURN. I presume he is appointed by somebody in Washington.

Mr. CHILLUM. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; I would like to know, because we have so many organizations that we can not identify them.

Mr. CHILLUM. I am simply a member of the office force, as an agricultural expert, with the Board of Food Administration in the State of Massachusetts.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that board appointed by the governor?

Mr. CHILLUM. The board was originally appointed by the governor. I am not a member of the board.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it a local State organization?

Mr. CHILLUM. It is a local State organization, but it has been made a part of the United States Food Administration.

While I am on my feet, I might state in answer to this gentleman's question that the disrupting of the feed situation in Massachusetts by taking off the market the sale of mixed products is simply a practical question. We know that the farmer can not buy a lot of these different things and mix them; we know that he can not get the mill feeds at the present time.

Representative HAUGEN. That question is not involved in this bill. Mr. CHILLUM. We understand that if the bill passes as it now stands mixed feeds will practically be eliminated. That is our understanding,

Representative HAUGEN. Evidently you have not read the second section of the bill.

Mr. CHILLUM. I have read it.

Representative HAUGEN. I think if you will read that you will reach some other conclusion. I think you will find it is left to the discretion of the secretary.

Mr. ABBOTT. Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak on this very point that Congressman Haugen brings up.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we shall have to ask you to wait, Mr. Abbott. We have a good many witnesses here.

STATEMENT OF MR. REESE B. HICKS, BROWNSVILLE, N. Y., PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL WAR EMERGENCY POULTRY ASSOCIATION.

Mr. HICKS. Mr. Chairman, may I have just a word?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HICKS. There are three things in this amendment that I want to protest against: First, damaged grain; second, screenings; and third, hay. That eliminates alfalfa and clover.

As poultry feeders we can not use wheat, and of damaged wheat and screenings we can use only 10 per cent or 15 per cent. We are limited. If damaged grains are entirely eliminated from our mixed feeds there is danger that our egg production and the reproductivity of our fowls will be very materially lessened. As to screenings-one of the basic features of our mash feeds-it must replace wheat, because under our Food Administration ruling we can not use milling wheat. As to hay, alfalfa is very largely replacing bran. In fact, many poultry breeders say they would rather have alfalfa meal

than bran.

Then I want to say something as to waste. As poultry breeders we have had to revise our feeding calendar. Within two years what used to be waste has come to be a valuable feed. Those of us who have lived in the West, in Kansas, know that hogs almost live on alfalfa. While that is not considered a concentrate, yet to-day we are having to revise our textbooks on account of the value of alfalfa as a feed. As poultrymen we would be very seriously affected if we were cut off from feeding alfalfa in a mixed feed. We realize there are damaged grains

The CHAIRMAN. What do you do with them?

Mr. HICKS. They can be fed to hogs with some safety, but to poultry they can not be fed as readily. I own a large farm, and we have our own mixing machines, we have our own system, and we have our own grinding machines and cracking machines.

There are three reasons why the average farmer can not do that. It does not pay us really. We buy these ready mixed feeds, and we find them all practically as good as our own mixed feeds. Of course they should be honest mixtures. Some of these things like peanut hulls should be eliminated from feeds.

Now, there are three reasons why the average farmer can not mix his own feed. First, he can not afford to own the machinery. The second reason is the cost of labor to-day, because it requires skilled labor, and labor is very high, especially along the eastern seaboard. The third reason is the cost of less-than-carload shipments. He can not afford to buy cottonseed meal and gluten meal and many of these other products that we have to use in large enough quantities,