trained, even though the arms should not have been issued. The second part of the bill related to the establishment of uniformity m regulations respecting the exemptions. By the first Volunteer Act only one period was fixed for making the return, namely, the 25th of March, and five days attendance previous to that was required to entitle to the exemption from the militia ballot. By the second, three periods were fixed for making returns, the 1st of January, the 1st of May, and the 1st of September, and in each four months previous to each date, four days attendance was necessary for the cavalry, and eight for the infantry, to give a claim to the exemption. From the present situation of the country, it would be perceived that the nature of the voluntary services under the former act would not be effectual, and, therefore, he proposed that the same number of days should be necessary to entitle to an exemption, as well from the militia as from the army of reserve, and that it should not be less than twenty-five. He had stated the object of the bill, and as most of the amendments were verbal, it would not be necessary for him to trouble the Commitee on each; he should, therefore, content himself with calling their attention to such as should be material

Mr. Pitt said, as far as he could collect the provisions of the bill, it was calculated to attain the desired object. Upon one part of what was stated by the right hon. gent. he could not help animadverting. The right hon. gent. seemed to suppose, that though a corps might be armed with pikes, the commander might have returned them properly armed and equipped; he (Mr. Pitt) thought, on the contrary, that if a corps had been raised, and accepted as a corps of regular infantry, that the only proper arms for such a corps were muskets, and that if they were armed with pikes or pitchforks, or any other weapon, that the commander could not return them as properly armed and equipped. With respect to another point, he could not conceive how it was possible, that a commander could return his corps as effective where there might be only arms delivered in the proportion of 25 to 100 men, and be had received a letter upon this subject from the Secretary of State, expressly stating, that no corps could be returned as effective, unless the men had had the opportunity of learning the use of arms, which prevented many commanders from returning their corps as effective, where they had VOL. IV.

not been supplied with a sufficient quantity of arms. If 24 days attendance under arms was to be considered as sufficient, it must follow that in those corps where only a fourth part of the requisite number of arms had been delivered, that there must be four times the number of days of attendance in order to give every one the oportunity of learning the use of them.

Mr. Rose said, he held in his hand a certificate which he had given of the corps which he commanded, stating, that they were perfect in all the manoeuvres of light infantry, and that they had attended muster and exercise three times the number of days required, with what arms they could procure, none having been furnished them by government. This certificate was returned by the lord lieut. as insufficient to enable them to exemption under the act, who referred to a letter from the Sec. of State as his authority. The gentlemen of the county, however, construed the act more liberally, and took care that the corps should be exempted. As to the description of arms which had been alluded to, it would never be said that riflemen were to be armed with pikes.

Mr. Secretary Yorke observed, that if government thought it necessary to alter the mode of arming the volunteer corps, and to furnish, for instance, the front rank with muskets, and the rear rank with pikes, he could not perceive that there could be any hesitation in the commanders of these corps in returning them properly armed and equipped. As to the case of a fourth part only of the requisite number of arms being furnished to any corps, he conceived that if such corps had the opportunity, in the course of twentyfour days, of learning the use of arms, that they might have been returned as effective. As to the certificate mentioned by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), it was insufficient, because it was not in conformity with the act of Parliament.

Mr. Pitt said, he did not wish to prolong the discussion, as the bill went to do away the doubts which had arisen. With respect, however, to what had been said, that any arms might be given to a corps, his objection was, that if a corps of infantry was accepted as such, without any explanation as to the mode of arming, that it must be considered that such a corps was to bearmed in the regular way with muskets, and that it could not be otherwise denominated "properly armed and equipped."

Sir William Young thought that some distinction ought to be made with respect to * Hhh

exemptions, between those volunteers who so honorably came forward in the first instance, impelled merely by their zeal and their patriotism, and those who enrolled themselves after the passing of the act for making a general array. By that act, if By that act, if three-fourths of the first class in any district came forward, the district was exonerated from the compulsory clauses; these persons therefore only commuted one service for another, and therefore, in his opinion, were less entitled to exemptions from the militia and the army of reserve. This description of volunteers included a great part of the peasantry of the country, who might be induced to enter into the army, whilst the former description of volunteers were wholly of a different class. This subject, he thought, deserved serious consideration, and he should press it upon the House after the recess.

The Attorney General observed, that if there were any case in which the lord lieut. of any county adopted a mode by which some individuals would be released, and the burthen of a ballot would be flung upon others, it was one that was not authorized either by the legislature or the government of the country. Particular cases might admit of some partial modification; but these could only extend to things which were not in themselves of material import. What he understood by persons being duly armed was that their service should have been tendered to and accepted of by government, and that arms should have been delivered to them in consequence. As to the strict meaning of a soldier being duly armed, that was a question more for a soldier than a lawyer to determine. According as he conceived the meaning of the law, it was requisite that, to obtain exemption from the militia service, a man should have been disciplined in the use of arms on five distinct or separate days at least, and to gain an exclusion from the ballot under the army of reserve act, it was necessary that he should be at least twenty-four days in training to military exercise; that is, that a man should be drilled for such a num-' ber of times on so many separate days without specifying any particular number of hours in each day, or supposing by any means that he was to be kept the entire of each day at exercise, Government, it appeared to him, would have a right to exercise their own discretion as to the number or the particular species of arms which they should issue.

Mr. Secretary Yorke explained, that, with respect to the issuing of pikes, it had been originally considered as a sort of temporary

armament, until a sufficient namber of muskets were in readiness to be issued: how. ever, they had afterwards become more generally adopted.

Dr. Laurence stated that he differed materially from the right hon. and learned gent. who spoke last but one (the Attorney General), and that that rt. hon. gent. also differed materially from himself on a former occasion, when stating his opinion on the subject which was now under, discussion. Pikes were said to have been originally brought into use only as a temporary sort of armament, till others were procured; therefore any deviation from that must be irregular. As to the other case, namely, where 25 stand of arms only were issued for 100 men, the commandant would then by law, that is, if he acted according to the strict construction of the act, be under the necessity of giving a certificate of service to every individual, according as each completed the number of drill days which was required before he could obtain an exemption. From the hurry with which acts of Parliament were frequently drawn up, inaccuracies must unavoidably occur sometimes in the manner in which they were framed; but it would be a dangerous principle to admit that, on acc account of the necessity which existed for their alteration, the laws could be dispensed with on any account whatever; and in each of the cases to which he had alluded the law should have been more strictly adhered to.

Lord Granville Leveson Gower stated that, in the county of Stafford, three weeks ago, not a single firelock had been received from government for the volunteer corps.

Mr. Secretary Yorke stated, that orders had been given to provide arms for the volunteer corps, but it was thought necessary to fur nish them in the maritime counties first.

Mr. Tierney thought a distinction ought to be taken upon the subject of arms. When corps made their offers of service, they generally stated what they would provide themselves, and what they expected government to furnish. A corps that he was connected with, had stated that they would provide themselves with clothing and other articles, and that they expected government to furnish arms and ammunition. By arms was certainly meant muskets, but if government thought proper to send arms of a different description, for instance, pikes, he should conceive that such a corps would be properly armed. As to the case of only a certain proportion of arms being furnished to a corps, he apprehended that supposing only 25 mos kets to be furnished to 100 men, each man

might exercise with a musket, twenty-four different times in 24 days, so as to be returned as effective, and that for the purpose of the return it was of no consequence whether there were 25 muskets or 100. To illustrate this, he would suppose a case of five learned doctors having only one brief amongst them, yet if they all perused the brief, each would consider himself entitled to a fee.

Dr. Laurence contended, that there was no analogy in the case cited by the hon. gent. As to pikes, they could not, he said, be considered as proper arms in the cases mentioned.-Upon that part of the bill which related to the number of days of attendance,

Mr. Rose observed, that there were some volunteers who were paid for 85 days, and others only for 24; he thought it, therefore, not just that the former should only be required to attend 24 days for the purpose of being exempted. He wished also that something should be done to enforce discipline; he had heard of some irregularities committed, and he thought, they ought to be checked.

Mr. Secretary Yorke said, that as the law now stood, volunteers were equally exempted in complying with the act by attending twentyfour days. As to enforcing discipline, his majesty had the power of making regulations for that purpose, and it was, perhaps, unnecessary to pass another act upon the subject, as it was highly desirable that too many regulations might not be made. There was a great improvement in the present system over that of last war, as the volunteers were now liable to be called out to meet the enemy, which they then were not.

Mr. Rose again contended, that these volunteers, who were paid for 85 days, ought not to be allowed an exemption for attending 24. He was well aware, he said, that his Majesty had the power of making regulations with respect to the discipline of the volunteer corps, but his Majesty had not the power of imposing fines for irregularity of conduct.

Mr. Secretary Yorke said, that volunteers would only be paid for the number of days they actually attended; and as to irregularity, any person misconducting himself might be expelled with disgrace from the corps to which he belonged, in which case he would be entitled to no exemption.

Mr. Giles said, that the bill now before the Committee went to alter the number of effective men. At present, every man who appeared, properly armed and accoutred, five days, was entitled to exemption from the militia; and if he appeared for 24 days, properly armed and accoutred, he was en

:

titled to exemption from the army of reserve. The object of this bill was to make an alteration in that which made the volunteers effective men, and if this was done without the consent of the volunteer, it was a breach of good faith with such a man. If this bill passed in the form in which it stood now, the condition of the volunteer was to be altered by it he had not what was promised to him when he entered, and therefore this measure was a breach of good faith towards him, and that by Parliament; good faith ought to be strictly observed by every body, but more especially by Parliament. It was extremely important to observe, that in this volunteer service there was at present no sort of discipline in this great body, except the terms on which they had been accepted. Many of them had discipline within themselves, and which they observed for their own regulation and internal arrangement; but if Parliament interfered to impose on them some discipline to which they did not agree at the time their services were accepted, it would do that which it had no right to do, because it was altering the condition on which the volunteers entered, and they were entitled to insist on the terms on which they entered; and here he could not help saying, that part of the speech of the right hon. gent. under the gallery (Mr. Rose) appeared to him to have a mischievous tendency, because it went to favour that breach of faith. It was impossible, without breaking the condition on which the volunteer entered, to alter any of it, or to subject him to any thing else without breach of faith. It was said to be desirable to put the volunteers with the regiments of the line. That was indeed the case of those who might be called out under the defence act, but it was expressly otherwise with regard to the volunteers; for Parliament had expressly declared that the volunteers should not be called upon to join the regiments of the line, and to do otherwise now would be to violate the faith which was the basis of the volunteer service; and if it was persisted in to make that alteration, the engagement between government and the volunteers was dissolved; and if measures of this kind were to be insisted upon, he was afraid the country would be deprived of a great deal of service it might otherwise have. The volunteers were an immense body of men, and they were, of course, very attentive to what passed concerning public affairs, and particularly respecting themselves; and care should be taken to bring nothing forward that was inconsistent with the faith which Parliament had pledged itself to keep towards them. He was, however, *Hhh 2

confident, that ministers would not countenance, nor would Parliament pass, any measure that was contrary to good faith, in any shape or on any condition. There had been a great deal said some time ago on the subject of a breach of faith with respect to property, and he wished the House to be as attentive to the question of a breach of faith respecting liberty.

Mr. Secretary Yorke said, he could not see the clause now in discussion in the light in which the learned gent. viewed it: he did not see how it could be considered as a breach of faith. This was a remedial bill, to exempt volunteer corps from certain hardships to which they were at present exposed under the strict letter of the law. It was not intended by it to do any thing unfavourable to the volunteers. This clause was prospective; it was not intended to take place until after the 1st day of May next. But with regard to the exemption of volunteers, it was to take place immediately. The other part would in truth be as if Parliament never made any alteration in the law respecting these volunteers, and the learned gent. insisted on it, that Parliament had no right to make any alteration in the law in this respect; that he would never admit. The fact was, that it would be in the power of those volunteers to dissolve, who should not like this new regulation; they might quit the service if they did not approve of it, and did not choose to continue; the only consequence would then be, that they would have no exemption, but would be subject to be ballotted for the militia, or the army of reserve, and the deficiency which might thus be created in the corps must be filled up out of the classes specified in the defence act: but the alteration proposed, he apprehended, would not have the desired effect, for the number of days of attendance being limited to five, was applicable to a time of peace, whereas the measure must now be adapted to a time of war.

Sir William Young considered the volun

teers as divided into two classes. Those which came under the regulations of the 42d of the King, and those under the act of the 43d of the King. The first he considered as volunteers superior, in consideration of their offers, to the second; for the first came forward without any view, expectation, hope, or idea of any exemption whatever. The second, although he did not mean to dispute their spirit, zeal, or patriotism, yet they came forward volunteers under the idea of a commutation of duty--to be exempt from other military duties that would have been imposed upon them by law, the Army of

Reserve, Militia and Defence Act; he therefore submitted the propriety of making some distinction between these two classes of volunteers.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought the hon. baronet alluded particularly to the volunteers of the county of Buckingham, who had acted much to their credit, in coming forward as they did without claiming any exemption; but he could not allow of any distinction between the volunteers of this county, either as to those who entered previous to the war or subsequent to the war. Distinctions between men actuated by such noble motives were invidious. It should not be insinuated, that all the volunteers did not enter from one motive-the glorious one of defending their country, and to preserve its honour. He did therefore beg leave to vindicate the volunteers who entered since this war, as well as those who were in that character before it. Their having become volunteers was purely voluntary; they had no conception of what they are now entitled to by the Act of Parlia ment; it was impossible they should, for the great bulk of them had entered before that clause in the act had been so much as mentioned, or even hinted at. It was no motive of commutation of duty or exemption that induced the volunteers to come forward: no! it was a spontaneous burst of genuine zeal in their country's cause, unmixed with any thing selfish, uncontami nated with any thing impure; it was a glowing spirit of patriotism, that made them rush forward in the service of their country. This was nothing more than was due to them from him as a member of ad ministration, and, unless he was much deceived, would be paid to them by that coun try which they were enrolled to serve. Having paid this small and well-deserved tribute to the volunteers, he could not help saying he concurred entirely in the senti ments expressed by the learned gent. (Mr. Giles) on the other side of the House. He was confident that no man in the House, or in the country, would be less disposed to countenance a breach of good faith in any case than his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke.) The truth was, that in this case he did not depart from good faith, for although five days were sufficient to entitle volunteers to exemption from the militia, and 24 from the army of reserve, yet that

and he

was the regulation in time of peace, proposed that the attendance should be greater now in time of war. It was not proposed, however, that the alteration should begin to operate until the month of May