Mr. SARGENT. Yes; it is about that way. That is the way I feel about it.

The CHAIRMAN. If you get your new water main and if it should fail, where then would you get your water?

Mr. SARGENT We would have to bring it by boat from the mainland.

The CHAIRMAN. How far are you from the Jersey shore?

Mr. SARGENT. About a quarter of a mile from the back entrance to the Jersey shore.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the liability of the water mian getting out of shape your new one?

Mr. SARGENT. Well, I can only answer as to the present water main. We have been constantly guarding and watching it for the last six months to keep it intact, so that we could get water to the island, pending the building of the new main. It has sprung a leak, I presume, half a dozen times, and we have had considerable expense to keep it in condition. It is all rotted out.

The CHAIRMAN. You are now building a good one?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not at all likely that it would spring a leak? Mr. SARGENT. No; I should say not, sir; and yet there is always that danger, where you have only one source of supply; and when that source fails, you are in rather a straitened condition. While we may build ever so good a water main, it would be perilous to depend on the one. If it should break some day when we have 5,000 or 6,000 people on the island, it would put us in a very bad position.

The CHAIRMAN. Yet the city of Washington is in the same position to-day, with only one water main.

Mr. SARGENT. I have no doubt it is, but I want to give you the reasons why we suggest a new water main.

The CHAIRMAN. Now your next item, Mr. Commissioner.

Mr. SARGENT. We ask for dredging-and this is another necessity, regardless of whether we are ousted or not-dredging in and about the channel slips of Ellis Island. Unless you had some dredging there, when the low tide comes we are going to be stranded. Several times we came very near running aground in the slip. The slip has got to be dredged, and you have got to dredge around to the entrance to the slip. The engineer estimates $10,000 for dredging the slip. The CHAIRMAN. Now the next item.

CONSTRUCTION OR PURCHASE OF A TUGBOAT.

Mr. SARGENT. The next item is for a boat. We found ourselves compelled to furnish the necessary means of transportation for our inspectors to board the ships. The conditions of the Revenue Service over there were such that the revenue officers and the immigration officers overcrowded the facilities, and we were working under great disadvantages in boarding ships, and the Secretary of the Treasury, on my having looked into the matter, directed me to negotiate for the lease of a tug for a boarding boat, and we did so. We have had a tug in commission since the early summer, and by virtue of this tug we are now in position to promptly board all ships and put officers on board those that are going to remote parts of the harbor of New York, and to facilitate the inspection of the cabin passengers, and make the neces

sary inspection that we are required to make, under the laws, of all sailing vessels and ships coming in.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you pay for that?

Mr. SARGENT. We lease it by the day, and they furnish the entire crew, boat, and appurtenances; and then we have it for the exclusive use of the Immigration Service.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you pay for it?

Mr. SARGENT. Seventy-five dollars a day.

The CHAIRMAN. You pay that as a part of the operating expenses? Mr. SARGENT. Yes; as a part of the operating expenses of the Immigration Service, under the direction of the Secretary of the Treasury, and approved by the Comptroller. We took up the matter at that time, as the urgency of it required prompt action.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we had our own boat, as you suggest, at a price of $75,000. Could we operate it as cheaply as you now secure this boat?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir; I am satisfied we could, from information I have gathered from men who are acquainted with the class of service that is required and the expense of maintaining boats.

Mr. GARDNER. You include in that estimate the original cost and the deterioration of the boat?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir; we made the estimate at $75,000 because we believed that if we wanted to build a boat we wanted to build a good

one.

Mr. GARDNER. Could you not get one cheaper than that?

Mr. SARGENT. I am satisfied we could; yes, sir. Those people who are letting the rented boat to us are not doing it without making money out of it; you can be assured of that.

Mr. GILLETT. Do you need it in winter, Mr. Sargent?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir; at all times, because the Immigration Service at New York is a very important service, and there are so many ships coming, so many boats arriving daily, that you can not go and put your officers on board of the boat and wait until they get through to go somewhere else. You must put your officers on the boat, and then go to another boat; so that the boat is constantly running about from ship to ship, to facilitate the movements of the officers and promote a rapid inspection.

The CHAIRMAN. But, Mr. Commissioner, it is hard for me to understand-I do not know whether it is for the other members-why the Customs Service and your service can not work together. The Customs Service has to board a vessel somewhere, and why could you not put your officials on the same boat? Why is that? What is the trouble? Mr. SARGENT. It is only a matter of space. Suppose we have space enough on a boat to accommodate 50 men of ours and I want to put 50 more men into the same space. How are you going to do it? The boarding force and the customs force has become so extensive in New York that there were no conveniences on the revenue boats. Our officers going down the bay would have to sit out on the deck during a storm. There was no place for them in the cabin, and there were no accommodations. It was simply impossible to accommodate the Immigration Service with the boats of the Revenue-Cutter Service, and of course the Revenue Service took precedence you understand that. They took precedence over the Immigration Service.

The CHAIRMAN. So that your fellows cooled their heels on the outside?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir; simply sitting on the outside, enjoying ourselves in the storms, while the men in the Revenue-Cutter Service were on the inside. At that time we were under the Treasury Department. The Secretary of the Treasury looked into it very carefully and agreed with me that there should be some relief furnished. They had no more boats. Their boats were all in commission. Then we conceived a notion of leasing a boat, and we did that; and I made this recommendation, believing it would be an economical proposition. Now we are under the new Department, as you realize. We have been severed from the Treasury Department and are in the Department of Commerce and Labor; and it occurred to me that now, more than ever, there was a necessity for an independent boat for the boarding officers of our service.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, the next item which you deem important, Mr. Commissioner?

Mr. GILLETT. How much is the boat?

Mr. BENTON. Seventy-five thousand dollars.

Mr. SARGENT. Of course that $75,000 would build a very large and a very commodious boat.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you get along with less?

Mr. SARGENT. I learned many years ago, Mr. Chairman, to estimate a little more cloth than perhaps would be required in order to get your suit big enough, and I made this estimate liberally.

The CHAIRMAN. How much could you get along with?

Mr. SARGENT. My dear sir, if I were going to tell you the exact amount we could get along with I would want to talk with the Treasury Department, that has built a great many of these boats.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps you would want to take a little time, then, and give us the exact amount? (See page 135.)

Mr. SARGENT. I would want to have a minute to get the information. But I hope the committee will not restrict us to too small a margin. I am very desirous that whatever we do shall be done creditably to the Government and to the service.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not want a boat that would not be sufficient for the Government service. But please find out what it would cost and let us know.

Mr. GARDNER. How many days in a year do you employ this boat at $75 a day?

Mr. SARGENT. Every day, sir. That boat is obliged to serve twentyfour hours a day.

Mr. GARDNER. And three hundred and sixty-five days in a year? Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir.

Now the last item, Mr. Chairman, of $75,000 for sundry additions to the buildings. If the language can be changed, as we have suggested, so that we can make alterations and repairs and improvements on our property, and so that we can use the funds upon the approval of the Secretary of the Department, that $75,000 item can be eliminated upon that basis.

The CHAIRMAN. It can be eliminated?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes; providing you change the language of the bill so that we are privileged to make such alterations, repairs, and improvements to the property as may be necessary for the service from time to time.

The CHAIRMAN. If we did that you would build this boat? Mr. SARGENT. No; I am not referring to the boat. I am referring to the last item for sundry additions to the Government buildings at Ellis Island, etc., $75,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand that. That $75,000 would, in your opinion, be sufficient to make the necessary alterations and repairs, and so forth?

Mr. SARGENT. No, sir; I understand that that is only for additions. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you. How much money do you say we limited you to last year? Was it $20,000? How much deficiency do you call for?

Mr. SARGENT. One hundred thousand dollars asked for in the deficiency bill; that is, to make up what we were not privileged to expend, under the decision of the Comptroller, for going on with the necessary repairs during the season.

The CHAIRMAN. How much have you actually expended, Mr. Commissioner?

Mr. SARGENT. $32,424.41.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what you have expended up to date?

Mr. SARGENT. That is for repairs to equipment and incidental repairs. That is not alterations or improvements.

Now, there are certain alterations that can be made in the present structure. For instance, we made several, to which this deficiency applies, in order to meet the congested conditions. For instance, where there was a great open space not utilized at all, we took and put in iron girders, and built a room to accommodate a large number of people. We then went into another end of the building where there was a large space not utilized, and we put in nine iron girders, and made that into a room that will hold, without crowding, about 300 people. Those were alterations.

There is another alteration over there that we want to make, in order to give the doctors the necessary light and facilities in making proper examinations that are absolutely needed; and it is in line with that that we ask the privilege of these appropriations.

If the language of the bill is such that alterations and repairs and all these little necessary things can be done out of that money, under the authority of the Secretary of the Department, with his approval, we can go ahead then and do the work that is necessary. That will be satisfactory.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if we limit it to $75,000, as suggested here, you could still go ahead and do the work you contemplate?

Mr. SARGENT. We can do the work for which the $75,000 is appropriated-sundry additions to the Government buildings at Ellis Island, either already erected or to be constructed. Now, when you come to repairs

The CHAIRMAN. When you mean "constructed" you mean those authorized?

Mr. SARGENT. Yes; and those you might authorize.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not construe that to mean that you can go ahead and construct new buildings without specific authority?

Mr. SARGENT. No, sir. The item reads: "For such sundry additions to the Government buildings at Ellis Island, either already erected or to be constructed, as in the opinion of the Secretary of

Commerce and Labor shall be necessary, $75,000." That is the language of the estimate. You have already given us appropriations for constructing a building which we have not yet built.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Commissioner, if you had this appropriation for the enlargement of the ferry house, and the appropriation for the water main, and for your filtering plant that you talked about, and dredging, and your boat, and additions, etc., to the extent of $75,000, in view of this litigation that we have and the troubles that we have ahead of us, you could get along for the next year, could you? Mr. SARGENT. Oh, my dear sir; we can get along, certainly. 1 am not going to say we could not get along, Mr. Chairman, because we could.

The CHAIRMAN. In your judgment, is it not better that the Government should wait until this litigation should be settled before we provide for any extension of the new building on the property where the title is in litigation?

Mr. SARGENT. In view of the opinion submitted by the Department of Justice to the Secretary of the Department of Commerce and Labor that no further work should be done, I could not state other than that it would be better. But for the good of the service, from the conditions that confront us at Ellis Island-the fact that we have to-day a large num ber of people in the hospitals at New York, and we have been informed that we can not continue to send them there-in view of the fact that we must provide for those contagious cases, and the additional fact that we are put to all kinds of inconvenience, there by virtue of not having any space, I say in the interest of humanity the appropriation should be made available so that if the Department of Justice should advise the Department of Commerce and Labor that they were safe in going ahead and making these improvements we could go right along. It is a long time before you gentlemen will come together again to make appropriations.

The CHAIRMAN. We meet again in December.

Mr. SARGENT. The allowing of the appropriation by Congress does not mean of itself that that appropriation is going to be used, because it is not going to be used any more than was the appropriation for the new island and the new hospital, unless it can be.

Now, if you will read the report of the committee that was appointed by the President, and that made an investigation at Ellis Island, you will see that they dwell especially on the cramped conditions over there. And for the interest of those people who come there, and on account of the conditions under which we work, I would urge the committee to make the appropriation. But in answer to your question, as you put it to me, I could not say other than I did. From my point of view, Mr. Chairman, the work should be provided for. That is, the appropriation should be provided for to be available when this obstacle is removed.

Mr. GILLETT. Does the expense of the Immigration Service include the Chinese-exclusion service, too?

Mr. SARGENT. No, sir; only the expenses of the immigration servIce at Ellis Island.

Mr. GARDNER. What is done with the surplus beyond your expenses? Mr. SARGENT. It is covered into the Treasury.

Mr. GILLETT. How much was it last year?