entire amount, but the Department cut it down and did not think it wise to submit such a large sum.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, the policy of the Department over there is to cut estimates without considering the question of whether or not the estimates are sufficient to do the work?

Mr. ACKER. The amount of the estimates would cover a great deal more work than really could be performed during a year.

Mr. GARDNER. What proportion of this $8,000 would be used for the construction of gutters?

Mr. ACKER. All of it.

Mr. GARDNER. It says for "gutters for completed mountain roads on the reservation."

Mr. ACKER. Yes: all the roads have been practically completed under the appropriations made by Congress. There is a note in the Book of Estimates referring to that.

Mr. GARDNER. On page 510 is the notation here.

Mr. ACKER. That shows the extent to which the estimates were cut down by the Secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, well, we do not care much about that. In order to complete gutters for the roads already constructed you have to have $8,000?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; there are a large number of those roads, and they extend over three mountains-West Mountain, North Mountain, and Hot Springs Mountain.

The CHAIRMAN. For what purposes are these roads used?

Mr. ACKER. For driving, mostly, and pedestrains use them also. Invalids who come down there have no other means of recreation but driving, and the roads are resorted to to a considerable extent; horseback riding also, and bicycling.

The CHAIRMAN. What income do you get from Hot Springs?
Mr. ACKER. Approximately about $18,500.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you expend that?

Mr. ACKER. In the management and supervision. For instance, the salary of the superintendent of the reservation, and the clerk in his office, and the salary of the manager of the free bath house, and the necessary assistants in connection with that bath house come out of that. The law provides for the bathing of indigent people from any portion of the United States; and in addition to that we have a corps of foresters and gardeners, who do the work around the reservation at a nominal salary of $40 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you make a detailed report showing the expenditure of this money?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you find that?

Mr. ACKER. In the annual report of the superintendent of the reservation, which is digested in the annual report.of the Secretary of the Interior. It is in the last annual report of the Secretary of the Interior, on page 168.

The CHAIRMAN. It takes your full receipts to pay for this management and supervision?

Mr. ACKER. Practically so, considering the many things that Congress makes no provision for. However, it has only been very recently that Congress has made any specific appropriation for the care and preservation of Hot Springs Reservation.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should not this reservation be sulf-supporting? Mr. ACKER. It would be if the necessary improvements there did not crop up from time to time, which would exceed the amount the Department had available for making them.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you not so increase your charges for different services there as to secure enough income?

Mr. ACKER. Well, the act of 1878 limits the Secretary to granting a certain number of bath tubs in any bath house to 40.

The CHAIRMAN. Does it not fix the price?

Mr. ACKER. No, sir. In a subsequent act-the act of 1891-the price is fixed at $30 per tub per annum.

The CHAIRMAN. What other sources of income do you have besides the rent of bath tubs?

Mr. ACKER. Nothing but the rent of water for medicinal purposes, and the Arlington Hotel, which is on the reservation and which has a statutory contract providing for the payment by the Arlington Hotel Company of $2,500 per annum for the use of a certain portion of the reservation for hotel purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. Who owns the reservation?

Mr. ACKER. The United States. The legal title is in the United States, as determined by the Supreme Court.

The CHAIRMAN. Under what agreements are these different hotels operated?

Mr. ACKER. There is only one hotel on the permanent reservation, and that is the Arlington. The managers have an annual lease from the Secretary of the Interior, under the act of 1891, authorizing them to run a hotel there.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the springs all on the Government reservation? Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are the other hotels located?

Mr. ACKER. Throughout the city of Hot Springs, on private property.

The CHAIRMAN. What charge, if any, is made to those hotels, or to people who are their guests, for the use of the water?

Mr. ACKER. The same rules and rates apply to the water supply to the hotels as those establishments on the reservations, namely, $30 per annum per tub. So far as rates are exacted from the guests at the hotel the Department has no supervision, except in the case of the Arlington Hotel, which is on the reservation proper.

Probably I can explain that a little better by describing the situation of the land down there. The city of Hot Springs is situated in a valley or ravine. The main street runs up through the bottom of this valley. The springs are all on the right-hand side, and all the rest of it is private property, on the left-hand side. The springs are on the reservation.

Mr. BENTON. On the right side going up?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; I can show you here on the map [producing a map. Hot Springs Mountain is on the right here indicating). Under the organic act, all the revenue derived from the sale of these public lots was to be expended by the Government in management and improvement, in the interese of the public, at this reservation here.

The CHAIRMAN. With the sale of all these lots and these privileges down there, why can we not make this thing self-supporting?

Mr. ACKER. It will be in time. The Government has declined to

sell any more lots down there because we think if we hold on to them in a future time they will bring a great deal more than they do now. Mr. GARDNER. How much of a community is there now? Mr. ACKER. It ranges from about 25,000 permanent population to 75.000 and sometimes 100,000 during the height of the season.

Mr. GARDNER. Does not the Government send soldiers there to be treated?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; on the permanent reservation, where the Government has a permanent hospital for the Army and Navy, and they also permit, under certain conditions, the soldiers of the war of the rebellion to be treated there.

Mr. GARDNER. Does it derive any revenue from that?

Mr. ACKER. Not that I know of.

Mr. GARDNER. It is a sanitary establishment?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir. It is under the supervision of the Secretary of War.

The CHAIRMAN. Go on to the next item-filling up lakes in and otherwise improving Whittington Lake Reserve Park.

Mr. ACKER. Probably I could explain that better by showing the committee this map. Whittington Lake is down here [indicating]. In 1890 Congress authorized the improvement of that reservation and set aside $30,000 from the sales of these lots for the purpose of improving it. There was a little stream entering here [indicating]. Its surroundings were very unsightly and the people there complained of it, inasmuch as it depreciated the value of abutting property. It was decided then to improve that reservation and convert it into a lake preserve, and to cut off this stream here indicating], and make a lake. here [indicating], and another one here [indicating]. It cost fully $25,000 to do it. Since it has been completed many people have complained against it, and complaints have been made by medical authorities at Hot Springs to the effect that this is a sluggish stream, and the water becomes stagnant, and a miasma arises from it that causes malaria.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, we expended $25,000 in building the lakes, and now the water becomes stagnant and they want to expend more money to fill them up?

Mr. ACKER. It is held that the Government having done that, ought to take it away. The city has nothing to do with it. It has no say. The CHAIRMAN. What engineer gave it as his opinion that it would be a good thing to put the lakes in, and cost us $25,000? And what other engineer is it who says we made a mistake and ought to fill them up?

Mr. ACKER. It costs $600 a year to clean out those lakes. The matter they take out there. I understand, is very offensive.

The CHAIRMAN. You can not discontinue that stream? It has to flow through there?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir: it has to flow through there.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you not break down the banks of the lake?

Mr. ACKER. The stream meanders through until it strikes an artificial lake, and then meanders on until it strikes another lake, and then there is a fine exit. It is on the incline.

The CHAIRMAN. The main thing to do is to open the gates, is it not?

Mr. ACKER. There is not sufficient water passing through at times, and it becomes stagnant.

Mr. GARDNER. What is the aggregate length of these mountain roads that you ask $8,000 for?

Mr. ACKER. I did not prepare myself on that. These roads have been constructed during the past four years. The mileage I can not just now recall; but they are winding roads, constructed in order to enable the people to get the benefit of the views and the different points of interest overlooking sections of the mountain there. Of course they are necessarily longer than they would be on an ordinary road. They have to conform to the contour of the mountains. Mr. GARDNER. You say this would become self-sustaining in time? On what basis do you found that?

Mr. ACKER. Our revenues now, specifically, are $18,120 per annum. and the total expenses during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1903, payable from that particular fund, were $14,086.29. That left us a considerable margin.

Mr. GARDNER. A surplus of about $4,000?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; for contingencies.

Mr. GARDNER. Could any of that be applied to this other item that you ask for?

Mr. ACKER. Not unless Congress appropriated for it. The Comptroller would not pass upon the account.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you on hand?

Mr. ACKER. We have a little over $4,000 from that fund. But there are many expenses that arise down there, out of which we have to pay amounts from that fund.

The CHAIRMAN. Who determines the expenditure?

Mr. ACKER. The Secretary of the Interior. No money is paid out except upon specific authorization by the Secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. You could paint the Government buildings out of that fund if you wanted to, could you not?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; we could do that.

Mr. BENTON. Have there ever been any orders made by the Secretary toward the protection of people from these sudden curves on the mountain roads-I mean in the way of putting up guards?

Mr. ACKER. The Secretary directed, after the construction of that road that zigzag road running up from Central avenue to West Point Mountain- he directed that no more roads of that kind should be constructed down there. He knew nothing about that when it was being constructed he knew nothing about what the plan of the superintendent was, except in a general way, until he had a photograph of it, and then he made an order that no more roads should be made in that way. The superintendent was instructed to take the necessary steps to prevent people from falling off down there, where the curves were excessive.

Mr. BENTON. I went around there once, and there was no protection and the horses were liable to run off the road. It is only that bad on the East Mountain, is it not?

Mr. ACKER. Yes; most of those grades have been corrected by Mr. Eisle, the superintendent, in the last year.

YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is on page 193, for the administration of the Yellowstone National Park; and you add, "And the construction and maintenance of a telephone in the reservation, $13,840." Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there not a telephone there now?

two.

Mr. ACKER. There is a telephone service furnished by the Yellowstone Park Association-which has the hotels there--at all points except Last year the War Department was very kind, and gave the Interior Department the material to construct a telephone line from the west arm of the lake down to this station [producing map and indicating thereon]. Probably I had better give you this map, Mr. Chairman, so that you can see the locality. This station is in the forest reservation below the park, known as the Snake River station, where they have a squad of men to protect the park from depredation on game which drive down in the winter months. Now, two additional stations are required-one here [indicating] at Soda Butte and another from this point here [indicating on the map] at the Lake Hotel, at the outlet of the lake to a point 35 miles on the eastern boundary of the park, where they are going to establish a permanent military station. A railroad company is now constructing a line through here [indicating], and shortly they will have an eastern entrance here [indicating]. There are two railroad lines now-one on the north, on the Northern Pacific; one on the west, on the Union Pacific-and there is to be one on the east. I forget which railroad it is that is constructing that. The CHAIRMAN. Assiniboine is up here, is it [indicating on the map]?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir; up near the northern line.

The CHAIRMAN. They have a telephone system running to these different hotels?

Mr. ACKER. Yes, sir. Commencing up here at the Mammoth Hot Springs [indicating], and running down here [indicating]. This is the regular transportation route, along here and up [indicating].

The engineer in charge down there is constructing a road from the hotel here [indicating] up this way, to go over that mountain [indicating], so as to connect over the portion of the road here [indicating]. That is entirely new. That is to avoid the very steep grade. The altitude is so high here [indicating] that at some points you can not get through at all. He wants to construct another road, reducing that to bring the route down to the valley where there is no snow. That would necessitate the opening of a new station here.

These black circles [indicating] indicate snow-shoe cabins and the ones in red indicate permanent stations. They send out details of soldiers to live at each one of these permanent stations here in red. The soldiers go from these red ones to these black ones from time to time, and patrol that section of the park to prevent depredations by poachers. They make an entire circuit of the park at various times during the winter months. That is the only means of protecting the game down there.

The CHAIRMAN. How much would it cost to construct that telephone line?

Mr. ACKER. It is not so very much. The estimate is $2,000.