Mr. DRAEGER. Mr. Kern can tell you. Mr. ROBERTS. Senator Jones, this association was governed by a body of men higher up than these privates. These recommendations would be thrashed out in the association and whatever was passed by the association, all the members had to abide by. For instance, if a raise of salary would come up, and a private would request that he wanted so much money, the same as we have asked for $1,500 instead of $1,320-the association would pass on that, and maybe they would say they could not have it-they would have to take the $1,320. We have to be governed by them as to what we need. Senator JONES. You do not blame Congress for that? Mr. ROBERTS. No, sir; I do not blame Congress for that. It is because the privates had no right to put their needs before Congress that put us in the position we are in to-day. Senator JONES. This association admitted privates and what is called higher-ups to membership? Mr. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. Senator JONES. The privates did not try to form an association of their own-confined to their own members? Mr. ROBERTS. Until this new organization was organized, and then I was the one that started the fight against allowing the higherups in it. Senator JONES. Does that union exclude the so-called higher-ups from membership? Mr. ROBERTS. Nothing but privates. I say frankly, if we had the higher-ups in the union the commissioners to-day would have been standing for the aid of the union. The CHAIRMAN. There is one thing I wanted to ask: You all understand that in an organization of the police force, it is something akin to a military organization, and there must be some discipline, and regulations must be enforced. Otherwise, it is an unorganized body of men. These matters Senator Jones asked about are matters affecting the discipline of the men. Mr. TURNER. Undoubtedly that is true. measures. These were disciplinary The CHAIRMAN. We will now take a recess until 11 o'clock Saturday morning (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee recessed until Saturday, the 20th day of September, 1919, at 11 o'clock a. m.) METROPOLITAN POLICE OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1919. UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Washington, D. C The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 11 o'clock a. m. Present: Senators Sherman (chairman), Jones, Sheppard, Dillingham, Elkins, and Capper. Present on behalf of the members of the Metropolitan police force of the District of Columbia: Messrs. Draeger, Wise, Boyle, Roberts, Delavagne, William J. Kerns, president of the Policemen's Association, and Sexton, representing the American Federation of Labor; Mr. R. H. Yeatman, attorney. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Mr. Boyle will please come forward. STATEMENT OF MR. E. W. BOYLE. The CHAIRMAN. You may give your name. Mr. BOYLE. E. W. Boyle. The CHAIRMAN. You heard the testimony of the other officers who have testified here? Mr. BOYLE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If I would go through at length, would you take about the same ground they have? Mr. BOYLE. That is just what I was going to state, Senator. not see that I can add anything to what has already been said. I do The CHAIRMAN. You adopt what they have said as your testimony, and would so testify if you were examined at length? Mr. BOYLE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. My desire was to shorten the matter. STATEMENT OF MR. C. C. WISE. The CHAIRMAN. You may give your name. Mr. WISE. C. C. Wise. The CHAIRMAN. You are a member of the police force of Washington? Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the testimony of the other officers who have testified here? Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If I were to go through at some length, occupying about an hour in each case, would you take the same ground they have expressed as your views? 91 Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Would there be any substantial change in anything that you can think of? Mr. WISE. Possibly in just one or two things. The CHAIRMAN. You may explain what they are. Mr. WISE. I wanted to say, relative to the Boston situation, I thought that it was an inexcusable. crime on the part of the Boston policemen and Commissioner Curtis, in acting too hastily, which brought about the result there. I am sure that our police department here, the members of our union, would never resort to anything like that. I really think it is a crime. The CHAIRMAN. If there were a difference between you and the chief, even supposing from your viewpoint the chief should be entirely wrong, that would not justify the police in adopting the course of the Boston police, in going out and leaving the community exposed to the lawless element? Mr. WISE. Oh, certainly not. I would never agree to anything of the kind, and am sure we have not a man among us that would. The CHAIRMAN. You may go on with your statement. Mr. WISE. That was about all I wished to say on that particular point. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any others? Mr. WISE. Well, Mr. Draeger and others have pretty plainly stated our reasons for affiliation with the American Federation of Labor. Our main object is to get an increase in pay and better working conditions. That is ever so true, and it is the aim of the entire membership of our union, and we hoped to get that, as has been explained by others, through the peaceful pleas and efforts of the members of the American Federation of Labor, and particularly the several labor unions. We thought and believed they were in close touch with the Members of Congress, and we believed they would aid us in influencing them to better conditions, and believed that it had been done; that various other employees have been benefited through the pleadings of the Central Labor Union, particularly, and the American Federation of Labor, both of which we are affiliated with. Speaking of working conditions, we all feel that in our particular case that can be effected and should be effected by having at our head an experienced, fair, capable man from the ranks. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think a regiment of soldiers would be justified in forming a union? Mr. WISE. No, sir; I do not. The CHAIRMAN. Or the creation of a union in the Army? Mr. WISE. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Either in peace or war? Mr. WISE. I do not. The CHAIRMAN. Or, if they did form a union, do you believe they should affiliate with some outside union, like the American Federation of Labor? Mr. WISE. No, sir; I don't believe it would the proper thing to do. The CHAIRMAN. If I explained to you that the police department of every large municipality constantly stands between the lawless element in that community and the law-abiding portion of it, can you not see there is a very considerable similarity between the two forces of law and order? You represent, with your fellow officers and policemen, the standing army against the lawlessness of WashingCan you not see there is some similarity between your position and the position of the soldier? Mr. WISE. Oh, very much, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Next Monday, unless something unforeseen should occur, some four or five hundred thousand steel workers are supposed to go out on a strike. There are some steel works in the District, or just across the river, at the Washington Ordnance plant across the Potomac River. Their employees are affiliated with the American Federation of Labor. Suppose disorder should occur-I don't know that it will, we hope not-but if it should occur in Washington, do you realize you will be called upon to arrest any possible disturbers of the peace that are affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, just as you men are ? Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I have no doubt you will perform your duty, as well as the other officers. Mr. WISE. Well, Senator, in my 15 years in the department, 9 of which I have served in civilian clothes as a detective, and I have worked in the past 2 years on an average, I would say, at least 14 hours per day, and that means 7 days a week, and at no time have ever hesitated when a call came, even after serving such hours, to get out of my bed and go willingly to enforce the laws of the District of Columbia; and today or at no time would I hesitate for a moment, when I knew the laws of the District were being violated, to gladly go and do my utmost and enforce law and preserve peace, against any one, any violator. The CHAIRMAN. Then you do not realize that being affiliated with the American Federation of Labor would be something of an embarrassment to you in a case of that kind? the Mr. WISE. I can not see in my own case that it would be. For instance, when the street car strike was on here about two years ago last March, I think, there was quite a crowd congregated around navy yard car barn, and they were anticipating trouble. I happened to be assigned to duty in that locality, and I do not think there is hardly a member of the department but what is really in sympathy with the working man, as long as he conducts himself properly, and I know that we averted trouble there by several of us going to the men and telling them, "Men the public are with you; we are with you; our sympathies are with you, as long as you are right and do not cause any trouble or violate the law. And I said, "It is your duty at this time to speak to those who are not members of your organization, boys, for instance, and advise them, tell them they are hurting your cause when they are creating lawlessness." And I am sure it had a wonderful effect. And I do believe, Senator, with the union men now, in case a crowd congregated like that, if we would go to them, which we would, and our members are trained to be cool and collected, and go to them and say, "We are union men. Your cause and purpose is right. Do not do anything that will bring about criticism. You know that we are one of you, and you know our duties, and it is your duty as well to try to preserve peace and order." I believe it would have a good effect on them. The CHAIRMAN. You know that there are very few peaceful strikes of any importance, do you not? Mr. WISE. We have had so few in Washington that I really am not familiar with strikes, I will say in those few we have had here it has been proven beyond question that the majority of lawlessness was done by the sympathizers and the hoodlums that just hung around to see the excitement. The CHAIRMAN. That is generally true every place. The strike furnishes the occasion. Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In the last strike in Washington there were some members of the Carmen's union involved in the acts of lawlessness, were there not? Mr. WISE. There were, I think, in two instances that I can recall. I know that I was working on one of those cases. But those were youngsters, as I say, that went against the pleadings of the older heads. The CHAIRMAN. Those cases, especially one case that you can recall, were very outrageous acts of violence, were they not? Were they not cases of dynamiting cars? Do you not remember that occurring here in Washington? Mr. WISE. I don't recall that. Mr. YEATMAN. That was a case of dynamiting the tracks and dynamiting the trolley poles, Senator. That occurred out in the part of the city where I live. The CHAIRMAN. They were under such conditions as to endanger the lives of the public and the passengers on the cars? Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Some of the union men were convicted for that, were they not? Mr. WISE. I don't just recall. They were arrested and charged. I do not just recall at present the disposition of the cases. The CHAIRMAN. I think they were tried. Do you think the cases are still pending? Mr. WISE. I think they are, Senator. Mr. ROBERTS. Some were dismissed, and I believe two cases are still pending. Mr. YEATMAN. The dynamiting occurred early in the morning. I happen to live in the neighborhood where this occurred, and heard the explosions while I was in bed. They crippled the operation of the road for about seven hours. The CHAIRMAN. They occurred during the strike? Mr. WISE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And the cases are not yet disposed of? Mr. WISE. That is what I understand. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is not an industrial city. It is not a place where violence would be so manifest. Let me state to you, as members of the policemen's union here, that there are no strikes of any consequence in any industrial center, like Chicago or Pittsburgh, in which violence is not a necessary incident of the strike. Such things as peaceful strikes do not ordinarily occur. It always requires the police, the sheriff, or constabulary force, and finally the National Guard, and sometimes the Regular Army, to suppress it. Do you think unions ought to be affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, running through these various branches that enforce |