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At the same time they propose to haze the birds and not provide feed for them at Horicon in hopes of forcing the birds to move along to other areas.

The closing of the season throughout the State after the quota is taken has many ramifications.

For hunters, it means a very short season and a very unsatisfactory

one.

For the landowner, it means that the geese will not be under any gun pressure and will be free-and if the hazing techniques are applied-will be driven off the reservation to forage for food among the farmer's crops in an ever-widening area.

For the conservationists, it means a goose slaughter of unprecedented proportions in a short period of time. Geese tend to lose their wildness when they congregate in large numbers and become almost tame. The pressure on hunters to get their geese during a short season, a matter of days, will result in a very heavy kill, perhaps an uncountable one.

The State of Wisconsin has indicated it concurs in the bag and possession limits and that it is willing to cooperate on establishing a means of surveying and counting the kill so as to know more about how many geese are being killed in Wisconsin.

They do not agree with the proposal to close the State to goose hunting when the quota has been taken within the quota zone.

I support them in this view and strongly recommend that the statewide 70-day season be continued. If there is to be a shorter season, however, a larger quota-perhaps 20,000 to 25,000-should be assigned Wisconsin as a means of gradually reducing the overkill and increasing the flock. If we accept for the purposes of our argument the Bureau's contention that Wisconsin hunters shot 35,000 geese last year, a cut to a strictly enforced quota of 14,000 is simply too drastic. Mr. DOWNING. Would you repeat that-35,000 geese were killed in Wisconsin last year?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. This is what the Wildlife people assert. This is a figure about which there is some dispute. The State of Wisconsin Conservation Department doubts the figure. Other estimates are lower. All the parties-namely, the Bureau people, the State of Wisconsin Conservation Department-agree that there are no suitable reliable means of surveying so that this is an estimate. But the estimate that the Bureau has of 35,000 may be possible, may be in the neighborhood of being accurate, and if it is, it would mean that they would propose to cut to 14,000, which is in the neighborhood of past kills as far as at least paper quotas are concerned.

Mr. PELLY. Mr. Chairman, could I ask our colleague as to where he got the figure 14,000? In other words, do you have any prior knowledge as to the limits that are going to be established?

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Yes, I say to the gentleman from Washington that the Bureau people, game management people representing the Federal Bureau, have suggested this as a figure that is contemplated. Mr. PELLY. This is subject then to approval at a meeting to be held in Washington here very shortly?

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Yes, it is.

Mr. PELLY. You think that will be the figure, but you are not sure?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Yes. This is a proposed figure. I think it is a figure that the Bureau people would like, ideally speaking. least they have suggested that to us.

At

May I suggest in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that the remedies the Bureau offers are just too drastic to be acceptable in Wisconsin. Furthermore, I would suggest they are contradictory. I am hopeful that the committee will be able to view this situation from a detached viewpoint and see what we in Wisconsin are concerned about. I hope then that the committee will be able to persuade the Bureau to approach the solution of these problems with greater moderation and to take into consideration the effect of their recommendations on hunters and the crops of farmers as well as its effect on the flock, which is important. I thank the committee for its indulgence.

Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Mr. Reinecke?

Mr. REINECKE. I only ask if you have specific recommendations. You mentioned that the department's recommendation, you feel, is too drastic. Have you any specific proposal that you feel would be comfortable to the State of Wisconsin?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Yes. I say to the gentleman from California I would suggest that an area of 20,000 to 25,000 would be in my estimation a suitable figure. At one time I suggested 21,000. That is assuming that 35,000 or the figure approaching 35,000 is correct or is somewhere in the neighborhood of being correct.

Mr. REINECKE. Thank you very much. No further questions. Mr. DOWNING. Your testimony has been most interesting. I didn't realize that Wisconsin was such a great hunting State. I must go there sometime.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Indeed you must, Mr. Chairman. The great Horicon Refuge is quite a sight for conservationists and for hunters. It is a huge area owned and managed by the State and the Federal Government.

Mr. DOWNING. You have no definite word that the limit will be placed at 14,000 other than conversations with personnel of the Bureau?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. That is correct. There was a meeting last week of the Mississippi Flyway Council, but I think that they did not reach agreement on recommendations.

As you know, representatives of the States go there, and if they can reach agreement, Illinois, Wisconsin, and other States, very often on matters such as this the Bureau will accept these recommendations. But, because agreement was not anticipated and I don't think there was perhaps even discussion this last week of the Canadian goose problem, the Bureau will make its own recommendation and effect its own regulations so that the Bureau's thinking on this becomes very important where there is not agreement within the Council itself on a question of this sort.

This having been at least their preliminary intention, it is a figure that we seem to be dealing with.

Mr. DOWNING. Congressman Stalbaum.

Mr. STALBAUM. I would like to merely associate myself with the remarks of my fellow colleague from Wisconsin, Mr. Kastenmeier, in whose district the greatest problems of goose hunting occur, but do

want to state briefly for the record that I wholeheartedly support his statement and the State conservation people in this regard and am hopeful, too, that we can work out a bigger quota for the Horicon area and particularly away from the statewide quota.

If you review the statement from the conservation people, they point out that the present restrictions will require a quota in one small area larger than the kill has been, because of some arbitrary regulation we have in Wisconsin, while in the other area they will be very seriously curtailed. Certainly, knowing the Horicon area briefly, and as Mr. Kastenmeier has said, it is an area that any conservationist should see when the geese are flying, I am hopeful, too, that the quota can be increased substantially.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DOWNING. Do you wish to testify later?

Mr. STALBAUM. No.

Mr. DOWNING. Thank you very much, Mr. Kastenmeier.

The next witness will be our colleague, Congressman John A. Race, of Wisconsin.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN A. RACE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN

Mr. RACE. I am, Congressman John A. Race, of Wisconsin. Before 1 get into my statement, I would like to associate myself with my two colleagues from Wisconsin in their statements.

I wish to thank you gentlemen for allowing me to appear here before you to comment briefly on the matter of the Canada goose kill quotas which I understand are to be established next week.

Mr. DOWNING. Congressman, do you have copies of your statement? Mr. RACE. I do not. I will give you this for the record. I would Jike to have it placed in the record.

Mr. DOWNING. Without objection, it will be placed in the record. (The statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN A. RACE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN

I want to thank you, gentlemen, for allowing me to appear before you to com. ment briefly on the matter of Canada Goose kill quotas, which, I understand, are soon to be established.

Before I go any further, I should say that I am appearing here primarily as an envoy for the conservation and sportsmen's club leaders of east-central Wisconsin, and on behalf of the Wisconsin Conservation Department, for whom Mr. Kastenmeier has so ably spoken. While I am not an expert on the subject of migrating waterfowl or the methods which should be used to set the kill quotas on such birds, I have discussed this problem at great length with long-time goose hunters and conservation people from Wisconsin and have studied the matter from the information supplied me by the Department of the Interior and feel that I can and should introduce certain vital considerations.

First, while the sportsmen of Wisconsin do readily admit the need for sound game conservation practices, I feel they are solidly united in opposing a statewide quota.

I am advised that a 14,000 kill-quota is being considered for the entire state of Wisconsin. I'm sure I don't have to remind you, gentlemen, that the Horicon Marsh area in east-central Wisconsin had a quota, by itself, of 11,000 in 1965. Despite this high goose-kill quota, last year saw an unbelievable amount of farm crop damage by these birds after the quota was filled and the short quotaarea season was closed.

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Now, there are a lot of aspects to this problem and I do not intend to go into each of them individually, but I would call your attention to the following points: (1) Unless reliable machinery exists on a statewide basis to conduct an accurate kill-count, a quota on a statewide basis cannot work. The Wisconsin Conservation Department has expressed a willingness to co-operate with federal authorities in developing a satisfactory method of conducting a state-wide count during the 1966 season. State conservation officials do not accept the reliability of methods previously used by the federal government in counting the goose kill. Therefore, I would urge that no statewide quota be established until agreement is reached on a reliable method of counting the kill.

(2) If the extent of the statewide season is based on the kill within the present quota area-in other words, if we close the statewide season as soon as a certain percentage of the quota is filled in the Horicon Marsh area where accurate count methods are used-then we are going to have some very serious consequences to deal with:

(a) Because the average daily kill is so much greater in the Horicon Marsh area than elsewhere in the state, a season which is dependent on the rapidity of the Horicon kill would be unfair to hunters in other sections of the state.

(b) Because the hunting activity-both at Horicon and elsewhere-is one of the primary deterrents of crop damage, the much shortened state goose hunting season would result in an almost inconceivably high crop loss from foraging birds. An extended hunting season is, therefore, not only desirable to the hunter, it is vital to the farmer.

(3) One of the major conservation problems involved here is the concentration of the goose flock at Horicon, in numbers ranging from two to three times the planned capacity of that area. Unless steps are taken-and to my knowledge, none have to date-to disperse the flock from Horicon and hold the goose population there to the 50,000 flock which is believed to be the ideal capacity, we will have solved nothing-we will have satisfied no one-we will have to face the problem on another day.

Mr. Chairman, you have received the statement of the Wisconsin Conservation Department and have been informed of steps which are being taken to insure that Wisconsin will not harvest an unreasonably large portion of the Mississippi Flyway's 200,000 geese, 120,000 of which frequent the Horicon Marsh.

I understand that the flock can tolerate a hunting harvest of up to 50,000: yet, it is reported that federal authorities are considering a 14,000 state quota.

On the basis of all of the information I have received, both here in Washington and back in Wisconsin, I can see no reason why a state quota of up to 20,000 could not easily be established with no adverse effects to the flock. Since statewide kill-count procedures have not gained the confidence of conservation officials, I would urge that the 1966 goose season in Wisconsin be established on the basis of a 14,000 quota for the Horicon quota area, and the continuation of the 70 day season-but with the one goose bag and possession limit adopted by the state this year in an effort to reduce the over-all kill.

At the same time, I would strongly recommend that state and federal officials immediately institute plans for the development of an accurate statewide killcount procedure, to be implemented this year.

I would also urge state and federal officials to begin plans for the dispersal of the Horicon flock, maintaining the 50,000 capacity population at Horicon and creating new waterfowl areas around the state to attract the excess population.

I thank you for allowing me this time and again urge that you study the views expressed here today in a spirit of careful and deliberate consideration.

Mr. RACE. Before I go further, I should say that I am appearing here primarily as an envoy for the conservation and sportsmen's club leaders of east-central Wisconsin, and on behalf of the Wisconsin Conservation Department, for whom Mr. Kastenmeier has so ably spoken. While I am not an expert on the subject of migrating waterfowl or the methods which should be used to set the kill quotas on such birds, I have discussed this problem at great length with longtime goose hunters and conservation people from Wisconsin and

have studied the matter from the information supplied me by the Department of the Interior and feel that I can and should introduce certain vital considerations.

First, while the sportsmen of Wisconsin do readily admit the need for sound game conservation practices, I feel they are solidly united in opposing a statewide quota.

I am advised that a 14,000-kill quota is being considered for the entire State of Wisconsin. I'm sure I don't have to remind you, gentlemen, that the Horicon Marsh area in east-central Wisconsin had a quota, by itself, of 11,000 in 1965.

Despite this high goose-kill quota, last year saw an unbelievable amount of farm crop damage by these birds after the quota was filled and the short quota-area season was closed.

Now, there are a lot of aspects to this problem and I do not intend to go into each of them individually, but I would call your attention to the following points:

(1) Unless reliable machinery exists on a statewide basis to conduct an accurate kill count, a quota on a statewide basis cannot work. The Wisconsin Conservation Department has expressed a willingness to cooperate with Federal authorities in developing a satisfactory method of conducting a statewide count during the 1966 season. State conservation officials do not accept the reliability of methods previously used by the Federal Government in counting the goose kill. Therefore, I would urge that no statewide quota be established until agreement is reached on a reliable method of counting the kill.

(2) If the extent of the statewide season is based on the kill within the present quota area-in other words, if we close the statewide season as soon as a certain percentage of the quota is filled in the Horicon Marsh area where accurate count methods are used-then we are going to have some very serious conequences to deal with:

(a) Because the average daily kill is so much greater in the Horicon Marsh area than elsewhere in the State, a season which is dependent on the rapidity of the Horicon kill would be unfair to hunters in other sections of the State.

(b) Because the hunting activity-both at Horicon and elsewhere is one of the primary deterrants to crop damage, the much shortened State goose hunting season would result in an almost inconceivably high crop loss from foraging birds. An extended hunting season is, therefore, not only desirable to the hunter, it is vital to the farmer in the surrounding areas.

(3) One of the major conservation problems involved here is the concentration of the goose flock at Horicon, in numbers ranging from two to three times the planned capacity of that area. Unless steps are taken-and to my knowledge, none have to date-to disperse the flock from Horicon and hold the goose population there to the 50,000 flock which is believed to be the ideal capacity, we will have solved nothing-we will have satisfied no one we will have to face the problem on another day.

Mr. Chairman, you have received the statement of the Wisconsin Conservation Department and have been informed of steps which are being taken to insure that Wisconsin will not harvest an unreasonably

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