in laying a bet on the races at New Orleans or Havana, or Tia Juana, or wherever they happened to be in session.

Senator OVERMAN. The profit from the tip sheets is apart from the actual betting itself?

Mr. PICKETT. Yes; but it is the foundation, largely, of it. A great deal of the handbooking that is going on in Washington is a kind of amateur handbooking that goes on in barber shops and places like that, and is based on these tip sheets, where there is advance information, and upon the results published in the gambling news, of course.

Mr. Chairman, I think that the newspapers have a right to be very jealous of any seeming interference with the r right to handle the news fully and freely; but there is a great deal of information which can not be now published in the papers as news. Just as an instance, you noticed, perhaps, that in New York the other day this birth control meeting was broken up. They could report that birth-control meeting, but if they were to report in the r news any of the language of the speakers by way of reporting the meeting, it would immediately become unmailable. It could not go through the mails.

I am sorry that Senator Overman is not here to hear this. Another thing that I want to stress is this: The question was asked whether any lotteries were going on in the United States at the present time, and whether this bill is needed in that particular. The Post Office Department does show undoubtedly that lotteries are going on in the United States very extensively to-day. In Pennsylvania recently the Cuban lottery was found to be operating there. We have pools on clearing-house rece pts, pools on baseball results, pools on everything except the weather. Not only that, but other kinds of gambling ere going on to such an extent as to indicate a great nat onal tendency. I was in a department store in Detroit the other day and my little girl called out to me, "Daddy, come here; here is a roulette wheel just like we saw at Interlaken." There was a little wheel that revolved, and you threw a little pea around it. That could be used for gambling. It is the duty of the Government, so far as lies within its power of interstate commerce, to eliminate gambling. Senator STERLING. Of interstate commerce?

Mr. PICKETT. Yes.

Senator STERLING. I supposed that was the purpose and meaning of sections 213 and 215 of the Criminal Code.

Mr. PICKETT. I do not know what you have in mind, but I suppose it is just what I have in mind conc rning this bill.

Now. th third thing is th ext nt of the evil results of this kind of thing. I some time ago clipp d th shallin s from the notices which went over the entire country. Her was a man who shot his wife because he lost all of his money in pool-room betting, and so forth and could not support her any longer, and rather than see her live in pov rty h shot hr.

Her is a man who killed another in a controversy over gambling.

Lit rally, blood is flowing all over this country to day because of the extent of gam bling. So this matt r should not be consid red, in the ordinary s ns of th t rm, a reform matt r. it should be consid r d. rather as a police matt r, and I am glad that in this particular cas it originated with Mr. Walsh, whom nobody on earth would accus of b ing a r former and I am glad that it has the backing of almost every police chi f of very important city in the United States, who says that he needs gislation similar to this in order to deal with matt rs of crime solely; not that he is conc rn d as to th morals of the people of his city, but that he is consid ring the law and ord r of his city. It is a police matt r. and should be consider d as such. Now, I b li v sine r ly that the nwspap rs of this country would w lcome this legislation. The only way we could find out would be to send a questionnaire to thm and it is too lat, of cours, to do that: but I belive there would be a 90 per cent favorablr turn from the newspapers of this country: because here is the situaion: Take our local situation. Suppose the Washington Times gives this kind of advanc information and suppose that the Washington Post do s not; the Washington Post will find itself in a situation where it has to give that information in order tɔ compet. They all have to do it in order to be on an equal basis with their competitors. But if they wr put upon an equal basis wh re non of them could publish such information I b liv ev ry last one of them certainly would welcome such legislation as r lieving th m from a necessity of doing som thing which they know demoraliz s th› community.

I think that is all I hav to say, unless I can answer any questions that might clear things up; but I also want to say that if it were true that all the Stat s prohibit d racing, it would not affect this publication of advance information on racing at all,

because gambling is still going on at Tia Juana, and places like that, and there would be just as much handbooking on races as there is to-day.

Senator STERLING. Are there any questions to be asked Mr. Pickett by anyone? If not, that is all, Mr. Pickett.

Mr. CRAFTS. I do not want to be misunderstood, Mr. Chairman, in what I said about the possibility of suppressing even the news of who won a race, that that is merely an academic menace, and if necessary, that might be done. It is not in any way provided in this bill. Here is the only thing about after a race is run, the prohibition of the publishing of the amounts of money won or lost by reason of such bets, wagers, and so forth. There is absolutely nothing to prevent publishing the name of the horses that won. There is no prohibition except as to the money that is lost or won I think that is extremely clear.

Now, Mr. Miller, if you have a word to add, please do so.

war.

STATEMENT OF REV. O. R. MILLER-Resumed.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, a gambling wave is sweeping over our country like some devastating scourge. It is worse after the World's War, as it always is after every We are in the aftermath of the war. Moral conditions and moral standards have always been lowered after every great war in our country. We all recognize that fact, and as the State superintendent of the New York Civic League, I have had much to do with this fight.

We cooperated with Gov. Hughes a dozen-years ago in that great victory, and we are thoroughly familiar with conditions there; but let me say that we urge the passage of this bill, first because the United States Government should cease hindering the States in the enforcement of their own laws. That is exactly what the United States Government is now doing.

When 45 States prohibit race-track gambling, and the Government then says, "We will allow these tip sheets and these papers, with a whole page or more--or part of a page-giving odds, bets and tips on races to be carried to every country town far and near which is to decide the races, the Government is hindering, and Blackstone, I believe it is, says that it is the business of Government to make it easy to do right and hard to do wrong. Our Government in this regard is doing the opposite.

Second, we urge the passage of this bill to cut out this advance news, because in thousands and tens of thousands of towns you will see just what you see down here in front of the newspapers of Washington, an excited, feverish crowd every day watching the results and the odds; and we know that many of them pay off according to the odds published in the papers. Through these pool rooms they may bet, many times, and be paid off; but they do not know whether a pool room manager is giving them a raw deal or a square deal. But if they look into a morning paper like the New York Telegram the next morning, they can see whether the odds were as they were claimed on the third race at Havre de Grace, or some other place, and see whether they are done. If there was not some official way by which these people could find out whether they were or not being given a square deal by the gambler, thousands of them would not bet. They would say, "We will not let this fellow give us the odds and then pay us or not if we win, as he likes." But they can say, "We will see to-morrow morning in the paper whether the odds were as he claimed they were."

Third, we urge the passage of this bill because many country towns are being debauched everywhere in reach of larger cities that print this news.

I am glad to say for their credit that there are a great many small cities in our State of New York, and elsewhere, where they do not publish this news-cities of 10,000, 20,000 or 30,000, perhaps, where they do not publish it-and even in the city of Albany

Senator STERLING. You mean in the local papers?

Mr. MILLER. In the local daily papers. They do not publish it. But in the city of Albany one, at least, if not more, of the papers does publish this news; and if even one publishes it, they can send it for 200 miles away up to Plattsburg or Malone, and the people who bet in the pool rooms of Plattsburg and Malone and Ogdensburg can get these papers. Of course, at Ogdensburg they would probably get a Syracuse or Buffalo paper, if they printed this news, as such papers usually do. But they get the news, and they catch those that are liable to temptation, that are liable to place their money, and they keep them in a state of feverish excitement.

Let me say, there are country towns where I believe there is practically very little of this, because they do not get any daily paper that publishes the official odds. If we cut out the printing of the official odds of the day before, we will stop it in many places where it now exists.

The gentleman referred to the fact that this law is not enforced in many places. Of course that is true. I do not know of any law that is enforced. There is a murder committed every day, on the average, in New York City, and there are several hundred thefts every day, and nobody advocates a repeal of those laws because they are not enforced. There are great race meets on the race tracks of that State; but there are probably 50 of the 75 race tracks where they do not officially allow that thing. We do not say that a few fellows sitting in the bleachers or sitting in the grand stand may not say, "John, I will bet you $5 the bay wins in this race." We do not claim there is no betting, even in those country towns where the county agricultural fairs are held and where the racing is usually held for two, three, or five days.

Senator STERLING. And you do not claim that this bill would prohibit bets of that kind?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; that is not what we are after. We are after stopping the newspapers as published in country towns from making it hard not to gamble and easy to gamble.

Senator STERLING. Are there any other questions to be asked Mr. Miller?
Mr. CRAFTS. Mr. Chairman, we now yield to the other side.

Senator STERLING. Is there some one here to appear for those who are opposed to the bill?

STATEMENT OF SENATOR AUGUSTUS O. STANLEY, OF KENTUCKY.

Senator STANLEY. Mr. Chairman, the New York Times, the New York Herald, the New York World, the New York Telegraph, the New York Tribune, the New York Evening Telegraph, the Evening World, the Evening Sun, the Evening Globe, the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Washington Post, and various horse-breeding associations represented by Mr. Dinsmore, the horse-breeding associations of Kentucky, all desire and request me to state that they desire to be heard upon this bill, and it will facilitate your hearings if these people have an opportunity to find out what has been said, an opportunity to know the arguments that have been made in behalf of this bill, especially in behalf of the section which was added in the last hour of debate, about which I am advised comparatively few Members of Congress knew anything at the the time of its passage, and which is far-reaching in its power and in its scope and heavy in its penalties. Time will be saved by giving these people an opportunity adequately to prepare their statements.

I am advised by these various papers that they are not before this committee as proponents of gambling. I may say, by way of digression, that in my opinion if the daily press, these great means of disseminating information, were actually and in fact copartners, colleagues, particeps criminis with blacklegs, bookmakers, and the like, this country would, indeed, be in a most pathetic position.

I believe that these great papers, the great metropolitan press of this country, are a great aid to the work that the ministers of the gospel do in proclaiming a high standard of spiritual and moral excellence. In war and in peace these great papers have been an aid to the Government; and now, on the whole, I believe they are on the side of morality and that their influence upon the public is beneficial.

It is necessary, of course, for papers to print the news. The paper does not necessarily become the ally of uncleanness when it reports marital infelicities or the prevalence of the social evil. It does not become the ally of the gambler when it publishes the fact that bets have been made, any more than it becomes an ally of the murderer when it reports that human life has been taken.

These papers wish an opportunity to speak not in behalf of gambling or gamblers, but in behalf of the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech.

Mistaken efforts have been made, Mr. Chairman, by good and holy men, devout, disinterested, for thousands of years, in suppressing any speech, the proclamation of any doctrine, that was heretical or dangerous to established orthodoxy or to the established church. The experience of the churches has shown that such a blow at the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech was not conducive to the spread of the Gospel of the Nazarene; and I say that these great papers wish an opportunity now briefly and, as they claim, conclusively to show that the gambling evil, and it is an evil which all wise men must deprecate and all good men must abhor, is not best remedied-especially by a government of delegated powers, this evil is not best remedied-by an unwarranted restriction of the freedom of the press or freedom of speech. And I hope, for that reason, that the chairman will fix a time within, say, two weeks or some such matter, as we have statements that it will take some time to compile, especially from the horse-breeders' associations.

I wish to state to the chairman that I have never been a horseman, and I am not much of a sportsman outside of bird hunting, that being the only sport I engage in to a great extent, and that I am not a devotee of the race tracks: but I was born and raised in Kentucky, and I love a horse. If these people are right I will have to unlearn all that I have ever learned of the character and the quality and the use of the Arabian blood, or of what we call hot blood. I have always believed, and that belief was based upon statements made by army officers who have given years of study to the question, and by breeders who have spent their lives in the evolution of the horse, that there is no great horse anywhere without this hot blood. The draft horse is lacking in fre and in vigor. The ordinary plow horse needs it. The road horse is worthless without it; and the destruction of the hot-blooded horse would mean the absolute paralyzing of an essential arm of our national defense, the cavalry service. For that reason every civilized government in the world to-day fosters the breeding, the development, and the test of strength of the thoroughbred horse. France maintained her stables and her tracks even in the midst of war, when there was no attendance and no betting, because she realized that her cavalry found its strength in the stall of the Arabian sire. These things we wish to present.

There is much more in this bill than a mere prevention of gambling. We will also desire to present to this committee and we will have lawyers who will do that, probably-a clear statement of the relation of bookmaking to wagers upon the track. One has no necessary relation to the other.

I share most heartily in all that these reverend gentlemen have to say touching the pernicious practices of the bookmakers all over the country. It will be shown to this committee conclusively that this bill would absolutely have no effect it is not any more than a passing cloud or a change in the weather-upon that pernicious pra tice which can be remedied by State legislation, and which might be by Federal legislation as clearly within, at least as much within, the constitutional powers of the Federal Government as this is, or as this section 5 is, and that would not necessarily interfere with the freedom of the press; and for that reason I hope that the press will be given, and the horse-breeding associations will be given, sufficient time to present the case.

Senator STERLING. Are there not some representatives of the press that can go on at the present time?

Senator STANLEY. They are here, but they prefer to read the hearings before testifying.

Mr. CRAFTS. They have heard the testimony given here.

Senator STANLEY. They can get through more quickly, and it will save your time, if they can do that.

Senator STERLING. But just in any ordinary hearing, Senator Stanley, the parties on the respective sides are not expected to wait for the publication of the testimony before going ahead with their statements. Some of the representatives of the press have heard the testimony, or much of the testimony, and all of them have hid an opportunity to hear it.

Senator STANLEY. It has not been printed. My secretary inquired to-day. None of the hearings have been printed.

Senator STERLING. No; that is true; nor do we ordinarily wait for the printing of the hearings before a side is heard.

Senator STANLEY. My experience has been that where there are two sides to a question and there is no great rush, it is customary to print the hearings and give the people a chance. In every court of law you like to see your opponent's petition before you answer it.

I think you will save time, Mr. Chairman, and it stri' es me as a most reasonable request that these gentlemen be given this time. They can answer so much more quic ly if they can read what has been said, and if they have time to prepare. Sevreal members of the press have told me that they desired to prepare briefs and submit them to the committee, and thus save long oral hearings.

Senator OVERMAN. Is there any great reason for pressing this bill hurriedly through? Senator STANLEY. I do not see any reason in the world. There is no reason in the world for precipitate action upon the bill, and there is plenty of time between now and July to report the bill.

We

Senator STERLING. I think the committee should be considered in the matter. have other business of importance, and we lie to get through with a thing within a reasonable time after we have got started at it. I think the Senator from Kentucky will realize that. I do not lie to have a thing pending all the time so that our attention will be distracted from other work by the mere feeling that it is pending. That is the main consideration, speaking for myself.

Mr. WILEY. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word?
Senator STERLING. Yes.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. T. WILEY.

Mr. WILEY. Mr. Chairman, I am general manager of the Cincinnati Enquirer, and I also represent the Washington Post. I reached Washington this morning, and I was not aware that these hearings had been going on. I know absolutely nothing about the arguments that have been advanced, pro and con, except what I have heard in this hearing this morning.

As far as I can see, I am the only representative of a newspaper here authorized to speak for his paper.

This bill and its companion bill introduced by the chairman, as I understand it, strike very deeply at the heart of the publication of news in this country. These measures are of far-reaching consequence. I believe that the bill that is under consideration at this time, if enacted into law, would be an abridgement of the freedom of the press, which is inhibited by Article 1 of the amendments to the Constitution.

I do not agree with the statements made here this morning that this bill prohibits only the publication of racing news as for the future.

The bill also prohibits the publication of sporting news of all kinds, because the report of any contest of speed, skill, or strength is an inside tip to some one as to what such a performer will do in the future.

There are many points in the bill, as I have read it this morning, that need thorough discussion, and I am very grateful to Senator Stanley for his suggestion that we be given a limited time-two or three days, I mean.

Senator OVERMAN. There is no reason why it should not go over until January. Mr. WILEY. I think these men should have time to prepare and bring their arguments before this committee.

Mr. CHASE. May I ask the representative of newspapers who has just spoken whether he would be willing to submit the amendments to this section 5 which he thinks will permit the protection of the press such as he declares to be in the Constitution, and at the same time would prevent the newspapers from being partners in this great commercialized gambling?

Mr. WILEY. I will answer the gentleman by saying that I would have to be guided in some measure at least by the arguments made. I want to say that I dislike very much to have it stated either by innuendo or by way of direct statement that we are partners in crime with the gamblers. We have no partnership in any degree, greater or less. It has been said that there was gambling on bank clearings. That is entirely right. Shall we, then, discontinue the publication of bank clearings?

I want to point out that there is gambling done every week in the year on stock market figures. I do not mean the gambling done in brokers' offices or on the curb, and I do not mean the gambling which is done in the great centers in New York, but I mean on the figures published in the metropolitan newspapers every day; that they are used for gambling, organized, commercialized, and carried out to the last figure. I have evidence to submit to you on that. If this is to be carried out, what is to be printed? If Congress can prevent us from printing news of the stock market and banking figures, why not prevent us from printing marital infelicities, and other things, so as to bring us finally down to the point where we will print nothing but expurgated church notes and quotations from the Congressional Record?

Senator STERLING. If you will permit me, I think the question asked by Canon Chase is this, namely, as to whether you would be satisfied with an amendment to the bill-to section 5 of the bill-that would make it clear that there would be no inhibition against publishing the results of a race?

Mr. WILEY. I am not sure whether that could be done. I answer the question in part by saying that I desire to consult my colleagues. They are not all with me. I should like to know what they think about it.

STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY OXNARD..

Mr. OXNARD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to be heard. I am neither a gambler nor a newspaper man. I am a raiser of thoroughbred horses. I get my pleasure from horses. I have my horses running at different tracks in different parts of the country. I want an opportunity for the gentlemen who are in the same category as myself to come here and speak, which I think they will do if they know about it. I was here on last Saturday, and I was led to believe that the hearings on this particular bill would be adjourned until after the holidays.

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