of these results would, he thought, be the to assist on such occasions, to the extent of consequence: either that no bill would be their respective abilities. sent up to them this session, or, that it would be sent up at so late a period, that their Lord- Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed his coinships would be unable to collect in sufficient cidence with what fell from the Noble and numbers, fully and duly to discuss it. For Learned Lord. He was fully aware how much his own part, he was not fond of giving pledges, of his time was necessarily engrossed by due but so deeply was he impressed with the con- attention to his official duties, and such consi sideration that something should be done in derations should influence, with respect to his the affair, he would say thus far, and he entering into a pledge for the performance of begged to be rightly understood, that if no any thing that might clash or interfere with bill should be sent up to them on the subject, them. Indeed, generally speaking, he was or no other Noble Lord came forward, at an not fond of pledging himself, or of making early period after the ensuing recess he should promises on such occasions; he had rather himself, notwithstanding the importance of come forward and act where it was practicahis official avocations, and however inadequate ble, than make any promise at all. He was he might be in some parts of them, undertake also as fully aware of the extent and importit, so far as to commit his ideas on the subject ance of the subject in question, which he to paper, and lay them before the House in seemed to think admitted of two views, the the shape of a bill. He should certainly give greater and the less. His Lordship took ochis best attention to the subject, and what he casion to panegyrize the talents and extensive should propose would be the result. He information of the Rt. Hon. and Learned doubted not when he had gone so far, what Gent. who had already come forward on the he should crudely and indigestedly lay before occasion; and in better hands, he observed, the House would be attentively considered the subject could not be placed. However, and discussed by their Lordships, among with respect to the less or limited view of whom many men more competent than himself the subject, he did not see that degree of diffiwere to be found. He should have in view, culty in it which some Noble Lords seemed in what he should propose, two principles, to conceive-he meant the question of resiwhich he thought of the highest importance; dence. To this point he had lately given first, that the church should be left to govern some hours close consideration, and the reitself, and, secondly, to keep the principle of sult was, in his opinion, that the difficulties residence in view, so far as to secure to parishes of it in a great degree may be obviated. With a due care and attention, with as little hard-regard to the greater and more comprehensive ship or inconvenience to individuals as was practicable.

The LORD CHANCELLOR called the attention of the House to the precise nature of the question before them, which was, whether it would agree to a single amendment made in the title of the bill, and only going to correct | an inaccuracy with respect to the dates as originally expressed? Their Lordships would judge how far what had been said was applicable to that question. However, what had transpired induced him to offer a very few observations. With respect to making pledges, he would remind any individual Peer of the extent, importance, and difficulties of the task to be undertaken, and he would beg leave particularly to address himself to the Noble and Learned Lord who seemed alluded to by the Noble Lord who spoke second in the debate, and bring to his consideration the duties of his official station: these were so various, so important, so onerous and pressing, as perhaps not to afford him sufficient time to pay the necessary degree of attention to the subject. For his own part, his official duties were such as entirely to disable him from undertaking the task; but whenever the bill should come before that House, he would of course assist in its discussion, and in bringing it to maturity to the utmost of his power: indeed it was the bounden duty of all their Lordships

view of the subject, he seemed to think himself inadequate to the task, even were there any prospect of his important judicial avecations affording him any leisure.

Lord ALVANLEY, in the course of his observations, remarked, that he never could entertain any doubts of the propriety of the bill originating in that House; he only meant to express his apprehension that the Commons would never agree to any provision for the inferior order of the clergy, out of the public purse, in the shape of a bill from that House. He then observed as to the tendency of what had already been done in the affair, and seemed of opinion that something should be done with respect to depending actions, even on grounds of justice; in regard to those which might arise hereafter, it would naturally be matter of future consideration.

The question was then put, and the report agreed to by their Lordships.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 4.-(See Minutes, p. 668.) [MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.]-The order of the day being read for their Lordships going into a committee on the militia officers' bill, and the question being put,

Earl ROMNEY rose, and expressed his senti- | ten months ago. He would prefer the supments upon the subject of the militia at some pression of the militia to its remaining in its length. He adverted to the measures lately present altered and degraded state. He exadopted with respect to the militia, particu- patiated on the constitutional evils of removlarly those which took place last year. Of ing the necessity of qualifications, which he the latter he expressed his disapprobation, thought was done to bring the militia more considering them at best but as unnecessary, into the power of the Minister. He deprein many instances injurious, and generally dis- cated the practice of sending the militia out gusting to the constitutional officers of the of the country, and which was followed up, old militia. The addition of the three cap- he observed, with the more injurious measure tains to each corps clearly increased the diffi- of rendering it, in fact, a mere drill for the culty experienced by the Lord Lieutenants in regiments of the line. meeting with qualified officers. The measures of Ministers with respect to the militia were such as must disgust the commanders of militia regiments, and induce them to retire. With respect to himself, he thought the militia reduced to that situation, that, under all circumstances, its continuance was no longer desirable. If any Lord should concur with him, he could almost himself move for the repeal of the militia laws, when the army could go on as before the establishment of the militia.

The Duke of CUMBERLAND observed, he ought to apologize to their Lordships for thus obtruding himself (two or three Peers having risen at the same time, but immediately gave way to his Royal Highness), when there were so many other Peers better qualified than he was to give an opinion upon the subject; but he assured the committee he should not detain them many minutes. With respect to the clause before them, and which was so strongly objected to, he observed, the effect of it was merely to enable the Lord Lieutenants to officer the militia corps, in cases of vacancy, by military men. The objections, however, to this regulation were made in the way of an apparent insinuation that such would be a breach of the constitution. Did he view the operation of the clause in that light, he assured their Lordships he would be the last in that House to support it: but he considered the measure very differently. In the first instance, the Lord Lieutenants were required to fill up with qualified officers according to the old regulations; nay more, the provisions of the bill before the committee went to strengthen the established principle of the old militia, inasmuch as it enabled the Lord Lieutenants to look for qualified officers in other counties than those to which their corps belonged, which they were not previThe House then resolved into a committee, ously authorized to do. This he considered Lord Walsingham in the Chair.-When the as a constitutional advantage, as it could not clause objected to, on a former discussion, by be denied but that a gentleman of landed procertain Peers, namely, that authorizing the perty in Yorkshire, and one of landed proservice, and settling the rank of officers un-perty in Wiltshire, had the same general inqualified by the old militia laws, was read, some explanatory conversation_took place in the first instance between Lords Radnor, Hobart, and his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland.

Marquis TownSHEND spoke shortly in answer to what fell from the Noble Earl. He differed entirely from him with respect to the effect of the measures adopted by Government in regard to the militia, deeming them neither degrading nor injurious. He deprecated all ideas of suppressing the militia, and seemed surprised at hearing such an idea started, particularly at a period when the power of France was at such an alarming height. The militia he considered as necessary for the home defence, and, with a view to render the troops of the line the more completely disposable, independent of offensive operations, a large disposable force would always be necessary, particularly for the defence of our colonial possessions.

terest in defending the country. He entertained no doubts of qualified officers coming forward in its defence; and must deprecate every idea of disbanding the militia, that established constitutional force. The proposed measure he regarded as one dictated by neThe Earl of CARNARVON expressed his hos- cessity, for it was obvious the militia could tility to the clause at some length. He as- not be brought into action, or marched, withserted, that, did the committee agree to the out officers. He entertained the highest posclause, a great sacrifice would be made with-sible respect for the militia, yet he must think out any reasons being assigned, and, in fact, on the bare requisition of the Minister. He recapitulated several of his former observations respecting the original establishment of the militia as a constitutional defensive force, and alluded to certain points of the late conduct of Ministers, which he said were in direct contradiction to their declarations only

the introduction of military men would be of service. Some stress was laid by a Noble Lord on the circumstance of militia-men being sent abroad: his way of putting the case, however, was not very correct; the army was in want of men, at the time, for a very parti cular and important occasion, on which a certain number of militia-men were authorized

by Parliament to enter into the regiments of | Ireland to this, volunteered their services to the line, did they choose it, as volunteers, assist them. Such a proceeding was not an as the militia corps could not constitutionally infringement of the constitution, and wicked be sent out of the country; for, with respect indeed would Ministers have been, did they to Ireland, he must consider it, especially refuse such offers. With respect to the Union, since the Union, as identified with this, and no man could possibly approve that wishedas forming but one country. He hoped the for consummation more than himself. But to militia of both parts of the United Kingdom render it fully effectual, or better than a parchwould be of reciprocal service. On these ge- ment record, the two countries should assimineral grounds he should give his full support late in every thing. He even thought there to the bill. should be a clause in the present bill for their service in Ireland, as it is already done with regard to Scotland. He knew not what dif ference there was between those countries, equally united to England, unless it was that the one required a voyage of about sixty miles to reach it. Were the services of the militia limited, according to the ideas of the Noble Lords, to their respective counties, it may be a good police institution, but could never be an efficient military force.

Earl ROMNEY, in reply to part of what had fallen from the Royal Duke, expressed his regret at feeling himself obliged to differ even on the slightest point from his Royal Highness; but he was of opinion, that Ireland was very differently circumstanced from Great Britain in regard to its militia. With respect to the idea of abrogating the militia force, he certainly could not entertain it, as applying to the present period, or in the present circumstances of the country, but as a measure, under the consideration he had alluded to, desirable at a future period.

Lord REDESDALE defended the conduct of Government with respect to the militia, and

pointed out to the committee the essential difference between the constitution of the militia force as a permanent peace establishment, and as formed for purposes of war.

The Earl of WESTMORELAND followed on

the same ground, and defended the militia as constituted at present, in which form it rendered the most essential and glorious services to this country. He observed, one great advantage derivable from the militia was, that it superseded the necessity of having recourse to a foreign service for defensive purposes. The principle upon which the clause objected to proceeded, was by no means new in the militia system; there were acts of Parliament which gave a suspending power with respect to a proof of qualification. He thought it better, as now proposed, to vest the Lord Lieutenants with a direct power in case of necessity; and he could not help observing, that the ideas suggested by the Noble Lords opposite, was rather an odd way of shewing their friendship for the militia.

The Earl of LIMERICK could not refrain The Marquis of SLIGO, adverting to the from making a very few observations on the constitution of the militia of Ireland, ex, present subject. He observed, that the cir- plained, that the officers there were appointed cumstance of the English militia serving in in the same way as in this country. He expaIreland was noticed by certain Noble Lords in tiated on the firm attachment of the Irish in such a way, as if those troops were compelled general to Great Britain, and noticed that reby Government to go thither against their incli-markable expression of the national wish at nations: that, however, was very far from being the case; the militia corps in this country felt for the situation of their loyal brethren in that country, and, with a zeal and alacrity which reflected eternal honour on them, and would lastingly attach the loyal inhabitants of

the famous meeting of Dungannon-" Let us share the liberties of the British Isle!" His Lordship expressed his heart-felt satisfaction at what had fallen from the Royal Duke respect│ing the reciprocal services of the militia of Great Britain and Ireland.

Lord PELHAM defended the measure on the general grounds adopted by Noble Lords at his side of the House.

After which, some further discussion took place, chiefly between the Earls of Radnor and Carnarvon, and Lord Hobart, in which the last-mentioned Peer expressed his hope, that in general the provision would be unnecessary, save in a few counties, where it may be found indispensable.

The question was called for, when the strangers were ordered to withdraw, peparatory to a division, which, however, did not take place.

The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to by the committee, and the House resuming, ordered the report to be received the next day.

Mr. TIERNEY observed, that as to the course now proposed, he should be ready to assent to it on certain conditions, which were to pursue the subject further. He had no difficulty in giving way to every suggestion that might appear favourable to the individual now in custody; his great object was to get out the whole truth. It was now said there were two charges against this man, and that he had been heard only upon one of them. He knew but of one charge against the prisoner, James Trotter, which was, that he had disobeyed the warrant of the Speaker of that House, and an order of the Chairman of a committee of that House; that was the charge against this person: it was, indeed, true, that that charge was strengthened by the evidence which had been laid before the House in addition to the Report of the committee, which stated him to be in contempt. The only question upon the evidence was, whether it furnished ground for a more harsh or a more lenient punishment than the House would have thought itself called upon to inflict, in case Monday, April 4-(See Minutes, p. 668.) the whole matter had rested upon the Report [JAMES TROTTER.]-Mr. SHERIDAN ob- of the committee? But the House, if it heard served, that the prisoner could not be heard the prisoner again, must, in justice, hear the again at the bar upon the present charge, be-party accusing him again; and the House, if cause he had been heard already. He thought they felt any inconvenience in this course, would the two resolutions of his Hon. Friend (Mr. bear in mind that they brought it upon themTierney) perfectly regular, and that there was selves, for the course was for them to commit no occasion at present to go beyond them: the prisoner to Newgate at once, upon the the substance of these resolutions was, that Report of the committee, by which he apJames Trotter, now in custody of the Ser-peared to be in contempt; and the House jeant at Arms, having been duly summoned by the warrant of the Speaker, and the order of the Chairman of the committee, and having disobeyed such warrant and order, had been guilty of a breach of the privilege of the House. This Mr. Tierney had moved. The next with which he proposed to follow it up was, "That the said James Trotter be com"mitted to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate."

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. BRAGGE observed, that he had no wish upon this subject, but that the House should conform to the principles of justice: he had no concern with any of the parties; he hardly knew the name of the individual who was the subject of this motion; but he thought the House had rendered it necessary to hear the prisoner again, from the course the House pursued when he was before them. The House need not have taken that course, for it had full power to act upon the Report of the committee, and to have committed the prisoner immediately; but the House had not done so, but ordered another course to be pursued, and which, in his opinion, varied the course which the House ought to pursue now; and now he thought it proper to hear the priSoner again, because, by ordering the minutes to be laid before the House, they had aggravated the prisoner's case, and he had not been heard in answer to that aggravation.

VOL. III.

would recollect also, that as to the inconvenience felt by the prisoner, it was also an inconvenience which he had wilfully brought upon himself. For his part, he felt that he was shewing a great deal of forbearance in not carrying this matter further, nor did he but if this matter was pursued, and any other wish to press against this man any thing harsh; person was concerned in this most unfair proceeding, he ought to be brought forward and properly punished. He thought it an interesting matter to the public, that all the adherents of this man and his abettors, and perhaps the founders of the plan by which the purposes of justice had been defeated, should be punished. The motion which he should regularly make, after the present one was dis posed of, would be, that James Trotter be now sent to Newgate. If he should hereafter petition that he may have an opportunity of being heard to explain away any misconception he may say had been entertained on his case, he should wish the House to hear the petition; but if that should be done, he now gave distinct notice that he should lay in his claim to be heard on the other side.

He

should propose to examine witnesses, and to bring home very serious charges, he believed, against some other persons, some of high station. He had reason to believe that this would distinctly appear if the matter was inquired into, and that was a matter which he had * Kk

as

much more desire to pursue than the punish- a right to say, that thus absenting himself ment of this individual. He now only should was a crime of considerable magnitude, and move that this person should be committed that it was aggravated by what appeared on to Newgate; but if Trotter took his advice the minutes of the committee, which had fend, he would go to Newgate and stay been laid before the House; but then he could a while quietly there, and stir no further in not help thinking that the man ought to be the matter. In point of public justice, more heard as to the matter of aggravation: but ought to be done in this business than he was the Hon. Gent. said, he had no objection to now doing. He should now move, that James the prisoner's producing evidence in his deTrotter, having been duly summoned with fence; now if he did not object to his prothe 8, caker's warrant and Chairman's order, ducing evidence in his defence, how could he &c. and disol tyd such warrant and order, object to the man's being heard in his deferee? has been guilty of a breach of the privilege of | But he said, that if Trotter was advised to make any further defence, the other side must have an opportunity of offering evi

this House.

The question was put and carried nemine dence. Now, this he could not assent to; he contradicente.

The SPEAKER then suggested, that the latter part of the vote, that of its being nemine contradicente, ought not to be entered, lest it should imply a doubt upon a matter which was clear, and have some effect upon future proceedings: by entering these words nemine contradicente, it might seem as if the House thought a case might happen in which disobedience to the warrant of the Speaker was not a breach of privilege, and so the authority of the House might be weakened in future, by endeavouring to mark this particular case: every disobedience to the warrant of the Speaker, or order of a Chairman of a committee of that House, was a clear breach of pri- | vilege, and therefore there was no propriety in marking one case more than another, in the event of such disobedience; the vote upon them always ought to pass nemine contradicente, but never to be so entered, lest it might bring a doubt where there ought to be

none.

The House immediately adopted this suggestion from the Chair, and the words nem. con. were left out.

Mr. TIERNEY then moved, "That the said "James Trotter be, for his said offence, com"mitted to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate."

Mr. BRAGGE observed, that he had heard nothing which had changed his opinion relative to the course which the House ought ultimately to take in this proceeding. He had said, that in substance there were now two charges against this person instead of one: 1st, that he had disobeyed the summons of that House; 2dly, that he had wilfully, and from corrupt motives, been guilty of a breach of the privileges of that House: the latter was totally distinct from the former; to one of which the man had been heard, to the other he had not; for the one therefore he ought to be punished without further discussion, for the other he ought to be heard before he was punished at all. The Hon. Gent. whose motion was now before the House, had

thought it impossible to hear any more evidence upon the subject. It was impossible to hear any further evidence, even on behalf of the prisoner himself, because the House had already, by voting that the prisoner had been guilty of a breach of privilege, decided that he must be punished, and the House could not hear any evidence against that decision. Still, as to the quantum of the punishment, he thought that the man ought to be heard, not by witnesses; he never had an idea of that, because they could not be upon oath, and their testimony could not be received against that which was upon oath, and now before the House; but he might be allowed to address the House for himself, upon the matter urged against him as aggravation, for upon that he had not been heard. The Hon. Gent. stated, that the absence of this man was a crime-that he admitted; and he thought upon the evidence, that the absence must be taken to be wilful. The Hon. Gent. seemed to take this matter up on behalf of some of the parties: he had no knowledge of that sort; he knew nothing of the case, further than as it appeared from the evidence on the table. But the Hon. Gent. took a more active part, and seemed to speak from further information, and to say there were others to be implicated in this matter, if further inquired into: he then said, that if this man should at any time petition the House to be released, he should move another inquiry. Now that would be going farther than he thought the Hon. Gent. ought to go. However, if the prisoner was brought up and heard, Mr. Bragge said his purpose would be answered.

Mr. TIERNEY said, he did not see what advantage this man could have by being heard at the bar of the House, if he was not allowed to give evidence; for how, without evidence, could he hope to alter the feeling of the House upon the case? He had no objection to evidence being given in behalf of this unfortunate man, for it was not punishment on him that was his main object-he wanted to deve lope the scene. He had been considered by the Rt. Hon. Gent. who spoke last, as if he was some agent of the parties in this business;