been done then in the same length of time, to put this country in a proper state of preparation for hostilities? The Rt. Hon. Gent. had said, that when he said fifty sail of the line meant for service would be ready in a month, on an emergency, he did not mean that they should be actually fit for sca, because they might not be manned in that time. He would not contradict the present statement of the Rt. Hon. Gent. but the way in which he accounted for having deceived himself by hearing the statement was this: the Rt. Hon. Gent. had said on that occasion, the men were more easily collected now than they were formerly, because they were now distributed in frigates, and tha therefore the ships might be equipped affairs in the course of a long war; and this argument must be supposed to have great weight, from such authority; for was it possible that a measure might be laudable in time of peace, and yet infinitely dangerous even to be tried in time of war. In time of war, it was possible to feel abuses, and yet we should not attempt to remove them. Mr. Taylor got his contract again-Why? Because that which was intended to supply his place was not ready. What did that prove, but that Members of Government began to destroy, before they had provided means for substitution? He would ask, if that was the situation in which it was wise to place us? and was a man to be rebuked afterwards for doing nothing but his duty, by calling on the House to examine into the man-in a shorter time than formerly. This was the ner in which power so obtained had been exercised? It was very possible that the bill under which these commissioners acted, was meant for peace and not for war-he was not saying that was the case-but it was possible, and that was a question fit for discussion; and his Hon. Friend was now not only justified, but he was performing a laudable duty in calling the attention of Parliament to a subject of so much importance: nor was this all; his Hon. Friend would have been justified in taking the course he did, although none of these reasons existed. He would have been justified upon the principles of humanity and the feelings of a gent. in calling for an account of the manner in which this power had been exercised, if he had only conceived that Mr. Taylor was an ill-used individual. He saw nothing discreditable to his Hon. Friend in bringing this matter forward, even if it appeared that he had no other motive but that of vindicating the character of an individual whom he had thought ill-treated; why, then, his Hon. Friend was justified in calling the attention of the House to the subject on the feelings of common humanity. He was justified in doing so from the civility of a gent. a point which no Gent. would dispute, and as a Member of Parliament not only was he justified in what he did, but he was laudably performing a laborious task. The conduct of the Admiralty was not in question now, nor need it have been brought into this debate, in the course of which, without any reference to any personal question, it appeared that persons who mean to speak on one side, might happen to contradict each other; and this had been the fact to-night in this debate between his Hon. Friend behind him (Captain Markham) and the Rt. Hon. Gent. upon the floor (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). The Rt. Hon. Gent. had said, that with regard to the preparations of the navy of this country, it is, in point of fact, in a greater state of preparation than on the apprehension of hostilities at the beginning of the last war. That was not the question; but the question was, whether, with reference to the comparative establishments at both periods, more had been done now than had VOL. III. reason alleged by the Rt. Hon. Gent. why we high an opinion of his integrity, to suspect that he would attempt to delude the House. If not, then the question would be, who have deluded the House? On what pretence was that message sent? If the statement of his Hon. Friend (Captain Markham) was correct, he believed he understood the case a little, and that it was not difficult to judge why the House had no information. The Report of the committee would soon be made, and then the House would take the matter of it into consideration. The material question which would arise on it would be, not only whether the con missioners had exercised their powers properly or not? but also, whether this measure did more good than harm? or whether, which was a possible case, instead of redressing grievances, it had been applied to the oppression of a worthy individual, and exercised to the detriment of the state? Mr. Fox said, that the Rt. Hon. Gent. who spoke last must perceive that no motion had been made at present upon the conduct of the Board of Admiralty; if that subject should come under discussion, he had such a perfect reliance upon the high character of the Noble Person who presided over that Board, that he had no doubt but a complete and sufficient answer would be given to any charges that might be brought forward. It was certainly natural to wish, that upon a point of great public importance the House should have information upon the subject, but it was impossible sometimes to have information simply, and at the same time justly, because inforination, to be satisfactory, must embrace all the points connected with it. He was perfectly convinced of the good intention of the present Board of Admiralty: by good intention, he meant not only the disposition, but the ability to reform and root out the abuses which were known to exist in parts of the naval service. He trusted that in the prosecution of this great work, the Board of Admiralty would not suffer themselves to be intimidated by the clamours or insinuations which were thrown out against them by jobbers, or by persons who were interested in continuing those abuses. Strong powers were certainly given to the commissioners by the bill which had been alluded to: he certainly was not a friend to vesting strong powers in any persons; but if he were to give them in any case, it would be where they were to be used to effect reforms in the abuses of the state. He had seen instances in which former administrations had been anxious upon all occasions to take strong measures against the subject, and it would be too much now if they were to refuse strong powers, which were to be exercised for the benefit of the subject. This certainly was not the time for entering into any discussion upon the armament; he could not, however, help expressing his surprise at what had fallen from an Hon. Gent. (Captain Markham) upon that subject, even though the Hon. Member's opinion upon that point agreed with his own. The words of the message certainly were military armaments; now the word military was certainly sometimes used in contradistinc tion to naval; but when the subject came to be inquired into, it would make very little difference in what sense the word was understood. He had merely risen to state his perfect confidence in the ability of the present Board of Admiralty to carry the reforms into effect, either in time of peace or war. Capt. MARKHAM, in explanation, said, that when he spoke of the respective naval force of this country, and of that which he must call our natural enemy, he certainly outstepped the strict line, as men sometimes used strong expressions without expecting to be held to the strict letter of them. Perhaps, too, it might be a little allowable to Gent. of his profession to hold the naval power of France in contempt, and it was in that view he spoke of the navy of France. He begged to refer to the history of the last war, and it would be found that he had not much outstepped the bounds of truth, when he called the navy of France mere fishing-boats. He did not say there were no armaments in the ports of France and Holland, but he hoped he should always be able to speak of them with the saine contempt. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, May 5-(See Minutes, p. 811.) IRISH BANK RESTRICTION.]-Lord KING took the first regular opportunity that prescnted itself, for proposing the introduction of the clause he had given notice of on two for mer occasions: the substance and effect of this clause was, to authorize the creditors of the Governors and Company of the Bank of Ireland to compel, by legal process, that cor poration to pay them the amount of their demands in Bank of England notes, allowing for the difference of the currency in Ireland. The adoption of this measure, the Noble Lord contended, would in a great degree remedy the evils produced in Ireland by the depreciation of its currency, in consequence of the enormous circulation of Bank notes. He pointed out the difference between a real and nominal exchange, and argued that the latter was by no means so much against Ireland as was generally supposed; inasmuch as the actual balance of trade would be found to be in its favour. The causes of the unfavour able state of the exchange with respect to Ire land, arose, he contended, chiefly, if not solely, from the great depreciation of its cur rency. The chief objection against what he proposed was, that it would tend to draw the specie out of the country-this he could not think would be the case. He was of opinion that an adequate supply of Bank of England notes could be procured by means of bills of exchange, and in the way of commerce. He contended, that unless the causes of the depreciation of its currency were done away, which his proposition would tend more than any other measure, equally unexceptionable, to do, the consequences must eventually be ruinous to that country. The Noble Lord concluded with moving his clause, which was to the effect above stated. The Marquis of SLIGO said, nothing could more clearly shew the difficulty of finding any remedy for the grievance under which the Irish laboured in the high and increasing exchange, than that a proposition should come from a Noble Lord, who had considered the subject so much with intent to do it away, which was in no sort practicable, and which, if practicable by any possible means, would be productive of the most serious mischiefs. His Lordship said, he had considered the subject a great deal, not only as a duty to Ireland, but also for the purpose of giving such local information to their Lordships, as they might not otherwise obtain; and by doing of which, perhaps, on such occasions, the seat he had the honour of filling would be of most public utility. A bill for continuing the restrictions on the bank of Ireland could scarcely have any clause added to it more entirely inconsistent with its principle, than that which was proposed; neither could his Lordship possibly understand what difference there was between allowing the Bank to pay their engagements with guineas, or with notes from another country, which they must buy with guineas. It would open the Bank in the worst manner possible, by allowing all the specie to go out of the country, without circulating any of it through it for its own internal purposes. His Lordship said, the difficulty in discussing money questions arose partly from not considering specie like any other article of com merce. a Take it in that view, and much of its apparent complicacy vanished. Gold, it was very certain, bore a premium of above five per cent. in Ireland above its nominal value in Bank notes; but though he was not prepared to say paper was not in some degree of deprecation, he would not agree that it was necessary consequence resulting from it; and in the present instance he was much inclined to think it was not the case. Specie, it was well known, was indispensably necessary for the linen trade, the great staple manufacture of Ireland, and not necessary, from any preference given to it alone by those who carried on the trade, but from other very good and sufficient reasons. With a limited quantity of specie in the country, it was very natural, when indispensably wanted any where, that those who chanced to hold what there was of it, should give it an increased value. A horse worth cl. at Smithfield last month, might be worth 40/. now, without any depre ciation in the notes of the Bank of England; and the same argument would apply to specie. His Lordship said, that the high price of bullion in Ireland, and the high exchange against that country, were both circumstances much to be regretted; and yet though acting in some degree as cause and effect, they tended to counteract the mischiefs of each other; and if it were possible to remove the one without the other, it would be attended with consequences the most ruinous. The high value of specie for internal purposes kept the mo ney in the country, which otherwise would be forced out by the high premium of the exchange; and the high exchange reimbursed the merchant what he had paid for specie, without obliging him to add to its price upon the consumer. The exchange operated as a tax upon all imports, and as a bounty on our own raanufacture; and thus perhaps it carried with it a kind of sinking fund, that might ultimately do away a grievance for which it was scarcely possible to find a direct remedy; and all the proposals for which were so full of difficulty and danger, that in my mind it was better far to bear the ills we have, than taste of others that we know not of. With respect to the causes of the high exchange against Ireland, they were pretty generally known: a great military establishment, in times when the country was disturbed, had incurred expense, the means for which were necessarily got out of it. The interest on those loans, great in comparison to the wealth of the country, and paid out of it, was one cause; coals imported, and amounting to near 700,000l. a year, one half of which was used in Dublin, and paid for in specie, was another cause; an increase of expense in those who lived out of the country, by the rise in every article of consumption, was another cause; an increase of foreign trade, and every other natural cause for the balance of trade, also operated; and it was unfortunately too true what was advanced by the Noble Lord, that Ireland had not a balance of trade in her fayour with any country in the world. Such were her present circumstances, but he hoped and trusted with much better prospects before her. His Lordship said, there was one point advanced, to which, from personal motives, he was particularly anxious to allude: it had been very industriously circulated, that the high exchange against Ireland had been occasioned by an increase of absentees in consequence of the Union, and that it was a fair price to pay for it. His Lordship said, the fact was not so, there was no increase of absentees worth naming-that he never believed the Union would increase the absentees-and that if he had, he never would have voted for it, not from regard to the paltry sum which a few individuals might expend, and which would be provided for by half the value of a linen ship, but because nothing could com pensate any country for the loss of its resident | power to confined debtors to appeal to th gentry. The example of their lives, the en- magistrates at quarter sessions, and that, if couragement of their countenance to indus- those magistrates see cause, they should be try, the protection of the weak, and seeing and enforcing a regular and impartial administration of justice, were duties which the great owed to their situation; they belonged to their residence, and the want of them no advantage could compensate. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, May 6-(See Minutes, p. 811.) [INSOLVENT DEBTORS.]-On the motion for the committal of the insolvent debtors' bill, invested with an authority to refer the case to a jury, whose decision should be final, either to liberate the prisoner, or, if found to be fraudulent in his views, to recommit him to prison, as a punishment, for such time as should seem proper. It was also a part of his plan, that the creditors, on a similar appeal, should be able to obtain from debtors who may be disposed to prefer a prison to a fair settlement, a full account and surrender of their effects. These were the prominent features of the clause he should submit: providing also that the magistrates should, in all cases where they saw proof of fraud in an appealing debtor, be at liberty to remand him to prison for another year, if they thought necessary. The Noble Lord concluded with saying, that his wish was, that the bill should be now committed, that the clause he described should be inserted, the bill printed, and that the discussion should take place on a recommittal on Thursday next. Lord MOIRA rose, and took a wide and comprehensive view of the laws of this country with respect to debtor and creditor, and complained of the power which, contrary to the principles of the constitution, and the precepts of universal justice, the creditor now possessed of inflicting punishment upon his debtor. It was the only instance in which an Lord ELLENBOROUGH defended the system individual was allowed to be judge in his own of arrest which had so long existed, as necause, and permitted to subject another man cessary to maintain that credit which was the to penal imprisonment (for it was cavilling life and son of the country, and he therefore with terms to call it any thing else), without opposed the Noble Lord's project. With reany proof of delinquency. Against this de-spect to the Noble Lord's allusion to the 1100 fault it was his wish to provide a remedy, not | prisoners released by the Society for relieving by a temporary act, but by a permanent re- persons confined for small debts, he observed, gulation. It was a common saying, that there that their confinement was necessary to mainwere twenty evil debtors to one cruel creditor.tain that credit upon which so many thousands He would not deny that fraudulent debtors were numerous—perhaps, more than half of those who contracted debts did so, either with no intention to pay, or squandered the means which should be applied to that purpore. Such persons it was the object of his measure to exclude; but though he meant to propose so to do, he would not be understood to accede to the whole of the saying he alluded to. There might be many evil debtors, but that could only be assumed, while the cruelty of creditors was proved by many record. It was proved by the Report of the Society for the relief of persons confined for small debts, from which it appeared, that in the year ending the 1st of March 1802, they liberated 1125 persons, who were confined for debts, on an average not exceeding 21. 75. 2d. per head; and these poor prisoners had 500 wives and 1400 children. On the feelings and justice of such creditors, he thought a comment would be superfluous. He cited the case to shew the pressing necessity for legislative interposition. The Noble Lord stated the bill he held in his hand to be merely a transcript of the last bill which the House had adopted; but that in the committee he meant to propose a clause which would obviate the necessity of any further insolvent bills, for the object of it would be to give a of the poor subsisted; and if these eleven hundred persons were not confined, perhaps eleven millions would have starved. As to the general operation of the insolvent bill, he could state that persons were in the habit of rushing into the prisons the moment such bills were announced, in order to avail themselves of this indulgence. He believed, in fact, that the prisoners really entitled to the benefit of such acts were very few; and he was certain these few would, when their case was explained, not fail of success in an appeal to their creditors. The LORD CHANCELLOR followed on the same side, and asserted, that among the most prominent features in the British character, was the humanity of an English creditor; and this he had an opportunity of knowing, from his own experience in the administration of the bankrupt laws. He had therefore no fear that persecution would be practised on the debtor whose inability was not attributed to want of principle or industry. With regard to the insolvent debtors' bills generally, they were to be considered with relation to the creditors as well as to the debtors, and to the public at large. To creditors he considered them unjust, to the public injurious, and to even debtors inhuman, for they encouraged improvidence. So much was he of that opinion, that, instead of agreeing to the Noble Lord's proposition to prevent arrest for any sum under 20% he would rather recommend to allow it for any sum over 51. as really more humane and best calculated to prevent litigation. As to this bill in particular, he understood, that from the first time it was mentioned persons rushed into prison, in the hope of benefiting by it, and that every step it had gone through the House the number was increased. After an able reply from Lord MOIRA, the motion for committal was rejected, with only one dissentient voice, and the bill of course was lost. [NEGOTIATION.]-Lord PELHAM began by adverting to a notice of a motion from a Noble Lord, which stood for Monday, and stated that he had a communication to make, which would, he supposed, supersede the necessity of that motion, though he had to regret that this communication was not quite conclusive upon the subject; and he had still more to regret, that it was of a nature which must be more painful to the feelings of their Lordships, than all the suspense and uncertainty in which the House and the country had been so long but so necessarily placed. The subject of this communication he observed to be, with regard to a circumstance particularly which had taken place this morning, and of which he thought it his duty to inform their Lordships. The French Ambassador had, in pursuance of instructions from his court, applied for a passport, which was of course granted. He had ako to mention, that his Majesty's Ministers had some days since sent directions to Lord Whitworth, that if he should not be able, within a certain period, to bring the negotiation to a point, he should leave Paris. They had not, how ever, yet received any communications from that Noble Personage to apprize them of the event, whether he had terminated the negotiation, and actually left Paris, though, in his opinion, his Lordship was on his journey home. However, until Ministers received intelligence from him, his Majesty would not be enabled to communicate to the House that full and satisfactory information which he was anxious to do, and which was desirable and necessary. This, he had confident expectation, would be laid before their Lordships on Monday next, to which day he should propose an adjournment. Understanding that some Noble Lords objected to the delay, he thought it necessary to observe, that it would be perfectly impossible to make the wishedfor communication sooner; and he saw no necessity that existed, nor any use that could arise from sitting to-morrow, contrary to the general custom. Lord DARNLEY could not persuade him, self that it would be proper in him, from the kind of statement which the Noble Secretary of S'ate had made, to withdraw the notice he had given of a motion for Monday; on the contrary, he thought it still more necessary. However he felt under these circumstances, he was most decidedly of opinion that it would be highly improper to adjourn over till Monday. In such a state of affairs their Lordships should continue at their post, for something might occur, even within twentyfour hours, which would require the assistance of their advice. The Noble Secretary had indeed promised a satisfactory communication on Monday; but he spoke not in the language of certainty, and he therefore felt disinclined to abandon the motion he proposed to bring forward. The system of confidence in Ministers had been too long followed upthis indulgence ought now at least to terminate. The mischiefs of delay were but too obvious; and, among its consequences, the late disgraceful transaction at the Stock Exchange was very fairly to be classed. He would not, therefore, consent to any farther procrastination, but would on Monday, unless the proposed communication should be made on that day, call upon Ministers for their defence, and for an explanation as to the present state of the country. Upon this he was determined to take the sense of the House. With respect to the adjournment, he thought it ought not to go beyond to-morrow; but he would leave it to some Noble Lord of more weight to propose a motion to that effect. Earl SPENCER was surprised that Ministers could attempt to propose any adjournment beyond a single day, in such a conjuncture as the present. It was to be sure tated, that it would be impossible for Ministers to give full information to the House as to the cause of that conjuncture before Monday; but that was not a reason why their Lordships should not continue to sit, at a time when we might perhaps be within an hour of absolute war, when we were unaware of the amount of the dangers which menaced the country, and of the provision made against them. The House would desert its duty, if upon such an occasion it consented to any longer adjournment than was really necessary. It was rather, in his judgment, incumbent on their Lordships to take up the subject of public affairs with zeal and promptitude, and interpose between Ministers and the Crown, in order to save the country. It might be said that he was prematurely entering into the question, that he was making observations which had a tendency to excite ill humour; but he would not be influenced by arguments drawn from such sources. It would be culpable any longer to attend to such remarks. Too much forbearance had been manifested, and the country |