Ministers, particularly with respect to their financial measures. At the same time he disclaimed all ideas of personal animosity; so far from it, that for several of them he entertained the warmest feelings of friendship and regard. The great object of his argument was to shew that they had not met the financial difficulties of the country in any one instance. He adverted to the salutary expedient of their predecessors, of raising part of the supplies within the year, which he thought they acted unwisely, as well as weakly, in not following up. Their abandonment of the system of finance laid down by these Ministers, had reduced them to the miserable expedient of peace loans, measures which would palsy the operations of the sinking fund, and check the gradual extinction of the public debt: he principally condemned the financial system pursued by Ministers, which, at the end of two years, left them with a real deficiency of four millions, instead of the boasted surplus of a million sterling: and he insisted, that no financial minister, in the present circumstances of the country, would do his duty, if he shrunk from the project of equalizing the actual revenue with the necessary expenditure of the country.

fore observed, from the accounts before the House, signed by the Secretrry of the Treasury. He first adverted to the different heads of proposed reduction, upon which the foregoing conclusions were drawn, and which it would be superfluous to observe, were, in the present circumstances of this country, totally out of the question. He would consider what the actual situation of the country now would be, were the proposed reductions carried into effect. Under the head of the army, to reduce the expenses in the sum proposed, a number of about 25,000 men should be reduced, which, according to the plan of disposing the army, would, at about the period of the delivery of the King's message, not have left one foot soldier in Great Britain. In the head of reduction proposed for the navy, about 1,540,000l. was intended to be saved, and to do this, he calculated about 18,000 men must be reduced this, according to the newly broached doctrine that ships might be ready for sea without men (a laugh), may be practicable enough; but were the reduction actually made, we should now have no navy fit for service. After shewing the impracticability of those intended reductions, and calculating upon the indispensable expenses of the actual establishment, he contended that the permanent establishment, as arranged even in November last, would be 13,436,000l. A diminution was a consideration of possibility, but a consider able increase, one of great probability. His Lordship then proceeded to the consideration of the real income of the nation, and after Couching upon the various sources from which it was derived, and the indispensable charges to be made thereon, he calculated the total of the actual ways and means to meet the real expenditure of the country, at not more than 9,682,000l. He then adverted to the Austrian loan, upon which, after commenting upon its origin, and the important circumstances connected with that measure, he declared his opinion, that it behoved Parliament to make provision for the interest of it, which he stated at about 497,000l. Pursuing the line of general calculation further, he stated, that the free Lord PELHAM likewise defended the accurevenne amounted to about 9,185,000l. which, racy of the accounts, and objected to making calculated together with the heads of the the statements which had been made in other genuine state he had given of the supplies and places, the subject of discussion in that House. ways and means, would evince the deficiency Those accounts would have been much better he had set out with stating, of more than two discussed in another place, where they could millions sterling. The Noble Lord then pro-have been properly met by the person who ceeded to calculate the different heads of re- brought them forward. A severe invective venue and expenditure, upon a more en-had been made against that person, but it larged scale, and to demonstrate deficits should be recollected, at least if the publicato a more considerable amount. He then ex- tion which had been alluded to, could be depatiated on the conduct of Ministers, in rather pended upon, that it had been stated by that concealing the true financial circumstances of person, that it would be necessary to make the the country, than coming forward manfully to revenue equal the expenditure. He observed meet the exigencies of the case, and at once that the Imperial loan could not with any prorender the revenue equal to the necessary ex-priety be considered as a subsidy, but as a loan penditure of the country; and condemned the to be paid by Austria.

System of the political conduct of Ministers,

The Earl of WESTMORLAND defended the accuracy of the accounts. The expenditure, he said, amounted to 13,000,000l.; and when the produce of the consolidated fund and of the land and malt was deducted, the deficiency would not amount to more than about 3,400,000l. The produce of the old taxes had, he said, increased more than 3,000,000/. He must, however, enter his protest against the practice of making statements made in other places, and pamphlets, the subject of discussion in that House. In adverting to the expenditure of the present year, he said, that it was undoubtedly large, and ought not to be taken as an average criterion; but it should be recollected, that, under the present circum. stances of the country, economy might only have invited the sword of the spoiler.

as equally censurable with the others. He The Bishop of ROCHESTER said, if it was proceeded to comment on the conduct of merely a question whether the accounts on the

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

table were correct or not, it might certainly ther would that be agreeable to the regular be proper to appoint a committee to investigate practice, until after most of the business them, in order that, if there were errors, they which constituted the orders of the day was might be detected; and if there were not, that over: the Noble Lord would, therefore, allow the accounts might remain unsuspected and him to say, he was not well advised with reunimpeached. It was, however, to be con- spect to the terms of his motion: he could sidered, whether this was the moment for en- have wished that the Noble Lord had given tering into such an investigation. This was notice, that after the orders of the day were peculiarly to be considered, because, perhaps, disposed of, he should bring forward this sub at the next meeting of that House they and the ject, if any motion should be made to adjourn country might be called upon to unite in re- over to-morrow; and the Noble Lord would' pressing the ambition and chastising the bad allow him to say also, that until a motion of faith of one whom he could not, perhaps, at another description was made, this course was the present moment call our enemy, but whom irregular; but the Noble Lord would soon he would designate as our most detestable have an opportunity of submitting the subfriend. stance of his present motion to the House, for he intended to move that the House do at its rising adjourn to Monday next. Having said this upon the form, he would now, with the leave of the House, state the objections he entertained to the substance of the motion of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had said, that the circumstances which had occurred had disproved the statement made by his Majesty's Ministers: the Noble Lord was not correct in that statement. The statement made by his Majesty's Ministers was not disproved by the circumstances which had actually occurred. It was stated by him, this day se'nnight, not that he was convinced that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris, for he had no knowledge of the fact, but that he had reason to apprehend it, and that apprehension arose from his knowledge of the fact that General Andreossi had applied for passports. It was an inference of his from this fact and accompanying circumstances, that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris, and he then believed that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris; but he never said Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris

Friday, May 13.-(See Minutes, p. 813.) [STATE OF THE NEGOTIATION.]-Lord GRANVILLE LEVISON said, that he rose for the purpose of moving, that the House should at its rising adjourn till to-inorrow. In making this motion he would not repeat the arguments which had been urged on Friday last, which appeared to him to be unanswerable. The events which had occurred since Friday appeared to him completely to justify those who voted against the adjournment till Monday. It would be in the recollection of the House, that the intelligence which arrived after that discussion completely contradicted the statement which had been made by the Minister. After the Rt. Hon. Gent. had stated, that Lord Whitworth had left Paris, it surely was a matter of sufficient importance to have communicated to the House on Saturday that he had not left Paris. Lord Whitworth, it was understood, remained at Paris, because some further pro--he made no such declaration. The Noble positions had been made; similar circumstances might again occur; but at all events, it was proper that the House should be at its post to receive any communication that Government might be enabled to make on so important a subject: he should therefore move, "That the House should, at its rising, adjourn till to-morrow."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he apprehended, that, independent of the objection which he felt to the motion of the Noble Lord, in point of substance, there was one, in point of form, which rendered it, he presumed, inadmissible. Such a motion, he believed, was never allowed to pass in that House: as matter of course the House would adjourn to to-morrow, without any motion, unless it should specifically determine to adjourn to some other day; and, therefore, the Noble Lord's motion was needless as well as unprecedented: the only way in which the motion now before the House could be regular in terms, would be that of an amendment to motion to adjourn to some future day; neiVOL. III.

Lord had expressed his regret that the House did not sit on Saturday last, and he had added his conviction that many gentlemen, and this was a circumstance worthy of observation, that many Gentlemen who voted in the majority for an adjournment to Monday, might regret the House did not sit. Now, he knew of no reason why that event should have excited any regret in the minds of any of the Gentlemen who voted in that majority; he was, on the contrary, convinced it ought to be matter of satisfaction on the part of those who supported the motion, that the House did not sit on the Saturday, as proposed by the amendment moved by an Hon. Gent. He alluded to the effect which might have resulted from their sitting on that day, and he begged the House would pardon him for not stating the reason for saying this. It was, however, his intention, if the Noble Lord had not superseded him, to propose that the House should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next, and that he intended to propose exactly as usual, without any comment, being perfectly prepared, however, if any question was put

е

Gent. was, however, he hoped, speaking not again on conjecture, but from some assurance that to-morrow he would not be able to make any communication to the House: if that was the case, the House should not take the trou ble of meeting, because it would be only meet

to him by any Member of the House, to answer it as distinctly as he could, consistently with his duty. On Friday last he had stated to the House the opinion which he entertained, which was, that Lord Whitworth was on his departure from Paris. He was not able, at present, to make any communication what-ing in vain; but then he wished to understand ever to the House, or to express an opinion whether Lord Whitworth was or was not on his way from Paris, but there was no probability of any inforination whatever being received, so as to enable him to make any communication from his Majesty to that House to morrow. The Speaker would observe on the regularity of the motion now before the House, after which, he presumed, the Noble Lord would not persist in it; and if so, he should afterwards move, that the House do, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next.

Mr. CANNING observed, that the Rt. Hon. Gent. who had just spoken, had stated two objections to the motion now before the House: one in point of form, the other in point of substance. If in point of form the motion was defective, the motion must fall, because it was irregular; but until he heard that from the Chair, he should be much inclined to doubt the irregularity of this motion; and he doubted it on the ground that the last motion upon this subject, which was this day se'nnight, was entertained. On that occasion the Rt. Hon. Gent. moved, "That "the House do, at its rising, adjourn to Mon"day next," and the amendment proposed to that was, to insert "to-morrow;" and that was in substance the motion of his Noble Friend to-day; and as all the rules of the House were founded on good sense, he saw no rea son why this motion should not be entertained in its present form; he could not enter into any distinction which the Rt. Hon. Gent. intended to take, for he could not see the difference between det ating a thing in the shape of an original motion, and that of debating the same thing in the shape of an amendment to an original motion. The motion now before the House was the very same thing in point of sense as the amendment moved this day se'nnight by an Hon. Gent. and which was debated for several hours in that House, without any body being rebuked or corrected for it. He was not aware how the matter could be objected to now, not having been objected to then. He confessed, however, after having heard the statement of the Rt. Hon. Gent. on his own conviction, that the meeting of the House to-morrow would not enable him to make any communication to the House; he should, for one, not wish to press for a division; but here, again, he must take the distinction of the Rt. Hon. Gent. who said he had formerly spoken his opinion, as it was formed in consequence of the conduct of the French ambassador; that from that conduct be drew certain inferences. The Rt. Hon.

the Rt. Hon. Gent. distinctly whether he now
said, that he should not be able to make any
communication to the House to-morrow? If
he did not say so, he thought the House should
be pressed to a division, and he should press
it to a division, when so many Gent. felt
as he did, and as his Noble Friend felt, that
this was not a time when the House of Com-
mons should consult its own ease, nor be even
too scrupulous in adhering to its own usages,
when either might be at variance with its great
public duty. On the contrary, it was a time
when the House of Commons should be unre
mitting in its labours, for the purpose of at-
tending to the interests of the country: the
House of Commons was the proper organ for
conveying information from the Executive Go
vernment to the people; it ought therefore to
be on its post, and be vigilant; nor could he
help thinking, that a communication from the
Executive Government to Parliament was a
more constitutional source of information than
a placard on the Stock Exchange, upon the
question of peace and war.
it consistent with the duty of the House of
Commons to put itself into a situation in
which they would not have the means of re
ceiving information from the Executive Go
vernment and conveying it to the people, and
that for no better reason than that they chose
to take a holyday on Saturday.

He did not think

ob. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER served, that the observations of the last speaker were fair, upon the supposition that a com munication might be made to the Ilouse to morrow on the substance of the motion now before the House; but on the regularity of the motion he should appeal to the Chair, from which the House would derive correct knowledge upon the subject: he should be ashamed to refer to his own knowledge, al though his attention had for many years been directed to the subject. He appealed to the Chair, whether, unless an adjournment was proposed to a day after the morrow, it ever was expressed other than as he had stated, namely," that this House do now adjourn." What he had said this night had not been cor rectly repeated. He had said, that he was thoroughly convinced that no communication would be made to his Majesty, to enable his Majesty to make a communication to the House to-morrow; he thought that no com munication ought to come from his Majesty to that House, until it was known that the negotiation had taken a satisfactory turn, or was totally broken off-until Lord Whit worth had arrived in this country. He

begged pardon, he knew he was irregular; much to ask, that the House should sit to

he would go further, and say, he saw no probability of being able to make any communication whatever to the House to-morrow: that was his opinion; but if he thought there was a chance of that, he should think it incumbent on him to make a motion to adjourn to Monday next, because he could not reconcile it to what was due to the dignity of the House, or to the feelings of this country, that the House should sit on an unusual day, for the mere chance of a communication. The present motion was not formal or regular, and on which, therefore, no proceeding could be had.

he was not satisfied by what he had heard from the Minister, concerning the propriety of the House adjourning until Monday. The Rt. Hon. Gent. said there was no probability of any information arriving to enable his Majesty to make a communication to the House to-morrow, and that such communication could not be made until my Lord Whitworth arrived in this country: if this was the rule by which we were to judge, he saw no reason to conclude that we may not be in the same situation next Friday as we are at this mo

ment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then referred to the Chair, on the subject of the regularity of the motion now before the House.

The SPEAKER said, that before the debate proceeded any further, he rose to say, that in the form of the question proposed by the Noble Lord to be put to the House, he was not prepared to state to the House, from his own memory or reading, any one instance, except that of last Friday, of such a motion being offered to the House in such terms, and it did not appear to him to be consistent with the orders and forms of the proceedings of the House.

the question now before the House, he was still of opinion that it would be better that the House should sit to-morrow, but, for the reasons he should give, he was determined to give no vote upon the subject. After the vote he gave on Friday last, he found himself in a situation he did not expect; he had stated in the few observations which he had submitted to the House upon that occasion, that it was by no means his intention to prejudge the general question, but when he came to vote, he found himself voting with Gentlemen who were generally considered as the systematic opposers of Government (Here there was a cry of "Order")-he meant that they were always in the habit of opposing Ministers, and therefore he was sorry he had given that vote, as it might appear as if he had, to a certain degree, prejudged the question.

Mr. Fox said he rose to say a few words in consequence of some observations which had fallen from the Hon. Gent. and which appeared to him to be a little singular. The Hon. Gent. lamented that he had been induced to vote on Friday last, with those whom he characterized as the systematic opposers of Ministers; but as the Hon. Gent. had stated, that he had voted upon the merits of the question, he did not think that the vote he had given called for The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said such strong marks of penitence. If the Hon. that the Hon. Member who had just sat down Gent. felt such concern for once voting with had stated, and stated truly, that on Monday the systematic opposers of Ministers, he might last he informed the House, that probably the frequently be placed in an unfortunate situa, discussion at Paris would be brought to a de- tion, because whenever these systematic op cisive result in the course of a few days, that posers happened to agree in opinion with him, of the following day, or Wednesday morning: he would be under the necessity of not voting it was perfectly true he had said so, and he | for a question which he approved, or he must was justified in expressing that conviction, but vote in company he did not like. But how circumstances had occurred which did produce ever unpleasant the Hon. Gent.'s situation some delay, but which delay would be incon- would be in that point of view, it would be siderable; what these circumstances were, he still more so if he should happen to take a siwas sure the House would not ask him to dis-milar dislike to the systematic supporters of close, but it was on those circumstances of that delay, that he should desire the Noble Lord to withdraw his motion, and then move that of which he had this night given notice.

The Noble Lord's motion was then withdrawn.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, "That the House should at its rising "adjourn to Monday next."

Mr. HENRY LASCELLES said he wished to say a few words, merely to defend his own consistency with reference to the vote which he gave on Friday last, and to the conduct he should adopt this night. When the question of adjournment was proposed on Friday last, he gave his vote upon the best judgment he could exercise upon the merits of the question, and he was still of opinion, that in giving the vote he did upon that occasion, he had acted consistently with his duty. With respect to

Ministers, for then it would be extremely dif ficult for him to decide how he should vote. The Hon. Gent. had shewn much more peni tence upon the occasion than in his opinion it required, because he had declared, that he had voted according to the best of his judgment upon the merits of the question. How such a vote could be a subject of lamentation, he could not immediately discover, because he always understood that to be the way in which Members of Parliament ought to vote upon every question. But the Hon. Gent, seemed also to labour under some apprehension that he might be supposed to have prejudged the question; how the Hon. Gent. came to enter. tain such an apprehension, he could not ima gine, because there was not one word said upon the question of peace or war, in the dis cussion to which the Hon. Gent. alluded. If, however, the Hon. Gent. had prejudged the question by his vote that day, it would gratify his curiosity very highly, if the Hon. Gent would tell him on which side he had prejudged