1629] that those two great questions should be kept | quite distinct, namely, the one as to the deliberation and judgment of the House upon the cause of the country, with respect to France; and the other as to the cause of the country, with respect to Ministers. These were topics which he thought ought to be quite distinctly considered; and the motions of the Noble Earl on the floor seemed to him more properly to belong to the latter question, than to that which stood for discussion on Monday. Lord PELHAM agreed with the Noble Earl who had just sat down, as to the propriety of separating the two questions to which he had alluded; and, with respect to the Noble Earl's motions, though some of the information they applied for did not appear at all neces sary to form a correct judgment on the subject of Monday's debate, and therefore he objected to them, yet, with reference to the other objects alluded to by the Noble Lord who had spoken last, he should most probably feel it to be his duty to adopt a different line of conduct, and therefore he would recommend the Noble Earl, according to the suggestions of these Noble Lords, to withdraw his motion for the present, and in all likelihood, by the time the intelligence he wished for might be necessary, his object would be answered through a private conference; and if not, perhaps the paper he was just about to lay before the House would enable the Noble Earl to frame his motions in a more satisfactory way. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he could not conceive of what stuff that man's mind must be made, who would hesitate in deciding, from a review of the papers on the table, what course the country ought to pursue for preserving its honour and security. Some Noble Lords, indeed, were free to admit, that the act of Government, in this instance at least, stood upon good grounds; but laying his claim to a candid consideration of the whole of the proceedings of Administration, he had no difficulty in stating that they would be found to stand upon justifiable grounds. The motion was withdrawn. Lord PELHAM presented the paper which the Noble Lord had described in his speech as the copy of instructions to Lord Whitworth; which was ordered to lie on the table. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, May 20—(See Minutes, p. 814.) litia, and for making several amendments in that called for it. The Rt. Hon. Gent. concluded with moving that leave be given to bring in a bill for the more speedy completing, &c. the enrolment of the militia. should observe, and the language he should hold, when discussing that point with the French government. Mr. GREY thought that the dispatches al Col. PORTER asked the Rt. Hon. Gent. ifluded to should be printed, together with the he did not intend to propose some mode for preventing the frauds that were so frequently practised by persons chosen to serve in the militia? The SECRETARY at WAR replied, that it was intended to propose an oath similar to that prescribed by the mutiny act for recruits for the army. A man, for instance, should be examined on oath with regard to his residence, the number of his family, and whether he was enrolled in any other corps of the militia. Mr. WINDHAM highly disapproved of the multiplication of oaths. He did not think that men's consciences were strengthened, like their bodies, by hard and frequent exercise. Mr. BUXTON wished that persons serving in the militia should be made to declare upon oath to what parish they belonged. Sir W. ELFORD said, it would prevent great inconveniencies and much injustice to declare in the first instance upon what plea they grounded an exemption from serving in the militia. The SECRETARY at WAR observed, that the idea started by the Hon. Bart. had not escaped him, and that a clause would be introduced to that effect. other papers already ordered by the House. Perhaps they might enable the House to judge of the nature of the violence offered, and of the remonstrances which that violence must, no doubt, have drawn from his Majesty's Ministers. If any other papers, containing further and more satisfactory information, could possibly be laid before the House, he readily trusted to the Noble Lord's candour to produce them. The dispatch ordered by his Majesty is said to relate to representations made respecting the continuance of French troops in Holland, contrary to the will of the people, and in direct violation of solemn treaties. As that was made a principal cause of complaint, surely there must exist some official document as to the answers made to those complaints. Lord Whitworth had undoubtedly obeyed his instructions in making the representations prescribed to him, and must have conveyed to Ministers the answers that were made to them. Of these answers Ministers must surely be in possession. But it appears from the case, as it was stated last night, that many points have been confined to verbal communications, and these have not been reduced to any official form: yet most undoubtedly it was material to know what passed here between his Majesty's Secretary of State, and the Ambassador from the French republic; for without that knowledge, how could a fair and adequate judgment be formed of the conduct and issue of the negotiation? The Noble Secretary of State must greatly increase his responsibi The question was then put for leave to lity, if, for points of such magnitude, he bring in the bill, and agreed to. trusted merely to his memory, without committing them to something in the form of an official record. Might they not be laid before the House in that shape? The Noble Lord should endeavour to hit upon some mode of submitting the tenour of these conversations to the House. [THE NEGOTIATION.]-Lord HAWKESBURY presented the papers which were ordered yesterday, pursuant to the motions made by Mr. Grey. In presenting them, his Lordship took an opportunity of observing, that though a variety of memorials that may have Lord HAWKESBURY observed, that what been presented, complaining of violence of was suggested by the Hon. Gent. appeared to fered to the property of his Majesty's sub-him wholly new, and had never yet occurred, jects, were not as yet arrived in this country, there were sufficient documents, however, now on the table to answer the purpose which induced the Hon. Gent. to move for them. There were also among them the papers that related to the Cape of Good Hope, and to the cession of Louisiana. In addition to the papers moved for, he had also laid upon the table, by his Majesty's command, a copy of a dispatch, which proved that no actual remonstrance had been made to the French go- | vernment respecting the French troops cccupying Holland, but merely an instruction to Lord Whitworth respecting the manner he as far as he could recollect. As to the general course of the negotiation, it was pretty well known that it was carried on at Paris, and not here. No doubt frequent conversations were carried on in London between himself and the French Ambassador, in which he took an opportunity to insist on the justice of our demands, that the French Ambassador might repeat these conversations to his government. But the principal seat of that negotiation was Paris; and indeed it could not be carried on both there and in London, without producing the greatest confusion. The preliminaries were negotiated here, and he was ready pres 16331 pared to produce all the documents respecting that negotiation, in case it had failed. Mr. GREY said, he understood the Noble Lord to say that there were no written representations respecting the continuance of the French troops in Holland. Was he therefore to understand that these unwritten representations took place here? If so, some account of them might in one shape or other be laid before Parliament. Lord HAWKESBURY contended, that in what he had said he meant no reference to Holland, but to the consuls, or commercial agents, to whom allusion was made last night. Mr. GREY then moved, that the papers now presented be printed. Mr. SHERIDAN thought it of the highest importance that the House should be in possession of every possible information that could enable them to come duly prepared to the discussion of the great question that was to be submitted to them on Monday next. But to him it appeared frivolous to have any additional papers printed, unless sufficient time was allowed attentively and carefully to peruse them, which could not be the case if the discussion took place on Monday. In his mind it was not so useful to come to the discussion expeditiously, as to come to it with minds fully prepared to give the question thorough and complete investigation. To that end he ventured to suggest the propriety of deferring the discussion till Wednesday. He should now, however, beg leave to ask whether Mr. Talbot still continued at Paris, and whether M. Portalis had left London? Many reports were abroad on this subject, respecting the truth of which it was essential the public should be informed. Lord HAWKESBURY had received no authentic account of Mr. Talbot having left Paris, neither did he know if M. Portalis was still in London. As to the reports alluded to by the Hon. Gent. that these Gentlemen might be still employed in carrying on a negotiation, there was no foundation whatever for them. He should oppose any delay in bringing on the question on Monday, unless some very urgent reason was adduced in support of it. The papers now produced and moved to be printed contained no new fact, nor any inforination with which Gent. might not already be acquainted. He was therefore at a loss to see any necessity for deferring the consideration of the papers already before the House. their mind on the great question that was then Mr. WHITBREAD rose to repeat a question which he put last night, but to which he had obtained no distinct answer. The question was, whether Government had received no new communication from France since the departure of Lord Whitworth from Paris? Lord HAWKESBURY had no difficulty in saying that he had seen a note, but not officially, until this day. He might, perhaps, produce that note, but it came to him in that sort of way, that, as to the political point which the Hon. Gent. seemed to have in view, Ministers would not be justifiable in drawing any inference from it. Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. GREY again asked the Noble Lord, whether substantially there was not received some communication from France, whether signed or not, whether in an official or unofficial form? Lord HAWKESBURY would feel no difficulty in producing the communication alluded to, if it had come to him in an official form. The communication was made in a confidential manner, such indeed as prevented him from producing it. As to the substance of it, however, he had no disposition to conceal it. The communication came through a circuitous channel, and proposed a possible ground of arrangement; but it was so inadmissible, that it could not be listened to for a moment. Not only was it not put in an official shape, but it contained a proposition which it was impossible to accede to consistently with the good faith of the country, and that sense of dignity and honour which would ever characterize the conduct which this country would invariably pursue. Lord TEMPLE repeated the question, whether Mr. Talbot was not left at Paris for the purpose of entering into negotiations with the French government; and has General Andreossi left his secretary here with a similar intention? They were said to remain merely for domestic purposes. Surely it was a new occupation for secretaries of legation to be employed in packing up trunks! Lord HAWKESBURY replied, that neither Mr. Talbot was at Paris, nor M. Portalis here, for the purpose of carrying on any negotiation. Mr. Talbot remained to take care of the papers belonging to the embassy, and to give his countenance to such of his Majesty's subjects as till remained in France. Mr. CANNING objected to deferring the disMr. GREY would not inquire into the preThe papers, of cussion beyond Monday. which the House were already in possession, cise nature of the communication, or whether *Sa contained ample matter on which to make up it was admissible or not. It was of extreme VOL. III. importance that the House should at least be acquainted with the substance of it. He could not but suppose it to be the contre-projet which was to have been delivered to Lord Whitworth, and he trusted that the absence of official form, and its having come through a circuitous channel, would not be made a reason for refusing to lay the substance of it before the House. Such a mode of communicating information to the House was not unusual-it had been resorted to in the beginning of the last war. It was also desirable to know whether no other communication had been made to Ministers since Lord Whitworth left Paris. As for delay, he should not press it, though he entirely agreed with his Hon. Friend, Mr. Sheridan, that there would be more advantage gained by a perfect consideration of the case, than from any over-expeditious or precipitate discussion of it. If the House would but pause, and he hoped they would, the more ample and minute the information that was laid before them, the less strong might be found the case of violence and aggression: for however strong that case might have appeared in the first instance, yet subsequent explanations might in a great measure have done it away. These were the explanations which he felt so anxious to obtain, because they might materially contribute to guide the House in the judgment and opinion they were to pronounce on the present critical situation of the country. But as he was now on his legs, he must beg leave to ask another question of the Noble Lord, and that question referred to reports which were this day very generally circulated, and which seemed to be taken from the French papers, viz. that the Emperor of Russia had interposed his mediation for the adjustment, of the differences now subsisting between the two countries. On this point he was extremely desirous to be accurately informed, and he wished to know if any official communication had been made respecting it. Lord HAWKESBURY professed his readiness to afford the House every information in his power; and he perfectly agreed with the Hon. Gent. who spoke last, that no deficiency in mere point of form should preclude him from communicating a fact on which the House could be enabled to form a judgment. The communication that had been made since the departure of Lord Whitworth from Paris, was conveyed in a way that might justify him in concluding that it did not come from the French government, though in his own mind he had no doubt of its authenticity. Indeed, it was his intention to have stated it to the House on Monday next; nor would he hesitate to state it now, if he was sure it would not provoke any premature discussion.—(A general cry of Hear! hear!)-The communication that was thus made to him in an unofficial manner, had for its object to propose an arrangement, the subject of which was, that we were to be left.. on of Malta for a stated number of years, provide France was permitted to take possession of Oiranio and Tarentum for the same number of years. As to the proposed mediation of the Emperor of Russia, the report was so far founded in fact, that his Imperial Majesty, while he seemed disposed not to interfere, had generally expressed a wish for the maintenance of peace; but it did not appear to him that his Imperial Majesty had sent any precise instruc tions for bringing his mediation to any distinct point whatever. The whole appeared to him, on the part of the French government, to be merely calculated to protract the negotiation, and to gain delay. Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. SHERIDAN MDEiously pressed for laying before the House the answer to the remonstrances respecting Hol land: the dispatch instructing Lord Whit worth to remonstrate on that point, was dated November 14.. There must surely have been some reply to that remonstrance, and it was essential the House should be put in posses sion of it. He hoped the Noble Lord would not persist in refusing to produce it. Lord HAWKESBURY must again repeat, thatthere was no distinct remonstrance made upon the subject. Lord Whitworth was merely in structed what language and manner he should employ in the conferences he held with the French government on these points. What that language was, abundantly appeared of the face of the papers already before the House. Mr. SHERIDAN contended, that it would be of the utmost advantage to Government to produce the paper; for if it appeared that ́ these remonstrances were treated with con tempt, and a disregard had thus been shown to the faith of treaties, Ministers would be able to take the strongest ground possible from that single instance in the behaviour of the French government. At all events, Lord Whitworth must, in some way or other, have reported the manner in which his remon strances were received; and it was that report which the House must be desirous to get pos session of. Mr. CANNING Concurred with Mr. Sheridan, and saw the question in a double point of view, both as it affected the cause of the country, and the conduct of Ministers. Lord HAWKESBURY had only again to repeat, that as there was no formal remonstrance on this subject, neither could there be expected any formal answer. Mr. SHERIDAN moved for an address to his Majesty, praying that he would order to be laid before the House the substance of the in formation which had been received by his Ma- | Mr. Liston to acquaint Government of the jesty's Ministers, in what manner the repre- armaments going on in the ports of Holland. sentations of Lord Hawkesbury, if any, re- The Hon. Member also moved for the produc specting the armaments in the ports of Hol- tion of all papers that related to the island of land, had been received by the French go- Lampedosa, since the signing of the treaty of Amiens. vernment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Hon. Gent. that any official document which was in his power, and which might tend to satisfy the wish of the House on that head, should be produced. He also stated, that up to the period of the discussions, Ministers were led to believe that the French troops would be withdrawn from Holland. Mr. SHERIDAN, after the assurances of the Rt. Hon. Gent. consented to withdraw his motion; he, however, thought that there might be other, though not official papers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER deelared there were none but such as would lead to a disclosure of some of the persons coneerned in giving the information. Mr. GREY said, that he had been informed that there had been no representations made by Mr. Liston to the Batavian government on the subject, at the time alluded to. Mr. CANNING was of opinion, that the substance of the information might be given without any disclosure. Mr. JOHNSTONE moved for the production of certain papers respecting the Emperor of Russia having refused to garrison Malta. Lord HAWKESBURY thought it would be more advisable for Gentlemen to give notice of such motions, as a matter of personal convenience towards the persons who were to produce them, and matter of urbanity in regard to the mover himself.-Motion withdrawn. General GASCOYNE, after a few prefatory observations, moved for the production of papers respecting any representations made by the Maltese to our Government, from October 1801, to March 1802, and of the proclamation issued by Col. Graham to the inhabitants; also for all papers respecting the annexation of the Italian republic; also the papers relative to all the islands taken, and afterwards eeded, in the West Indies: they might have been retained with the same propriety as Malta. Another point he would submit to the Noble Secretary of State, was contained in No. 38 of the official correspondence, relative to the sending of General Georges to Canada; but on this he did not mean to take the sense of the House. Another motion which he did not mean to press was, for a copy of any accounts which had been sent by Lord HAWKESBURY rose to take up the attention of the House for a few moments. He had no difficulty in saying, that to the motion relative to the orders for the evacuation or retention of the West India islands, he had no possible objection. Whatever papers were connected with this subject should be readily produced. With regard to all the other motions, he entertained a very different opinion. As to the motion which had been put from the Chair, he felt himself called on to say, that he had seen no parliamentary ground for the production of the papers which it was the object of the motion to bring before the House. If motions of this kind, referring to subjects which were connected with events antecedent to the treaty of Amiens, were once acceded to, it was quite impossible to determine how far the same principle might be carried. It was beyond the means of calculation when such inquiries would be suspended. Though he should resist the motion, he thought it due to the House to state a few circumstances which would, in his opinion, be very satisfactory to the House. It had been asserted, and had even been introduced into periodical publications, that a remonstrance had been made by the Maltese deputies, in which they brought forward a grave subject of complaint against the Government of this country for indifference to their just rights and privileges in the arrangement of the definitive treaty, This was a charge which he felt it necessary on his part to repel in the strongest terms. With this view he could not do better than direct the attention of the House to a letter, written by the deputies subsequent to the treaty of Amiens, in which they expressed their perfect satisfaction with the conduct held towards them by Ministers, and their gratitude for the exertions which had been resorted to in their favour. Their great object, he did not mean to deny, was the privilege of being under the direct protection and government of his Britannic Majesty; but if this could not be obtained, the arrangement made in their behalf was one which they thought demanded a warm expression of gratitude.-[Here the Noble Lord read a part of the letter, which fully justified his statements. The deputies declared, that they considered it their highest honour to be admitted to the privileges of British subjects. As this, however, was impracticable, they could not, without the most affectionate gratitude, reflect on the efforts made by Ministers to secure their privileges, These efforts they should communicate with the history of their country to the latest pos terity; and, while they gloried in the conti |