Brought forward 140,0001. | served, that the situation of the empire called

from the population of the country, merely for the purposes of defence. Every body concurred in thiking that the war ought to be carried on with vigour, and certainly the beginning of the war was the time for vigorous offensive operations, before the enemy could have time to secure his vulnerable points.

for troops of the line, fifteen guineas at least, and sometimes more, were given for the milnia service; so that the people of this country were taught to look for large bounties. There was a | great diversity of opinion about the militia. He confessed he was a friend to the principle of the militia, and was afraid there was a shade of difference of opinion upon this point between him and his right honourable friend. (Mr. Windham seemed to indicate by his manner, that there was no difference of opinion between

Mr. SHERIDAN rose to deprecate what he considered as a premature discussion upon this bill. He hoped there would be no more invidious comparisons or acrimonious language re-them.)He was glad that he did not differ from specting the militia. He hoped that gentlemen on all sides would occupy themselves only in augmenting the means of defence of the country; and he trusted that although the committee which had sat upon the King's Message had not asked leave to sit again, yet that some further means of defence would be adopted. He could not help differing from the honourable gentleman who spoke last who said he would have no objection to balloting for men to fill up the regiments of the line. He was sure the honourable

gentleman would not, upon reflection, think of forcing men into the regulars, who would then bs at the disposal of the Crown, and who might be sent abroad upon any service that was thought proper. The case was very different as far as respected the internal defence of the country. Every man was bound to stand forward for the defence of the country in case of invasion, at the command of the Crown, or even the Sheriff; but it would be too much to force men by ballot into the regulars to serve during their lives.

Sir G. HEATHCOTE argued upon the necessity of adopting strong measures of defence, and not to wait till the enemy hid landed. As to the rising en masse, he considered it as nonsense. If people were afraid to meet the danger, he should have but a gloomy prospect of the safety

of the country.

Mr. W. ELLIOT said, his principal objection to the measure was, that it would go to prevent the establishment of a large regular force. This he considered as necessary for the future safety of the country. It was the only force that was fit for offensive operations, and certainly the best for defensive; for certainly a well-timed aggression was, in many cases, the best means of defence. This was so obvious, and so generally admitted, that it was not necessary for him to press it any farther. He knew that this country could not have the same military force that another country of equal population could have. The extent of her navy took away many men from the army, besides the general prosperity of the country, its opulence, and the extent of its manufactures, were many reasons why its army could not be recruited ke those of other countries. But he thought the experiment of recruiting had never fairly been tried, because whenever they tried to get a large force for the regular army, it was always sure to be counteracted by raising a large force also for domestic service; and while ten guineas bounty was given

his right honourable friend; but though he was a friend to the general principle of the militia, he certainly never would have consented to increase it beyond its original number of 30,000 men. It had been said, that 70,000 men night be raised in this way, without interfering with recruiting for the line; he admitted this might be true, if they were raised by ballot; but if they were raised by bounty, it certainly would interfere with it. He trusted that the government would see the impropriety or raising men for a limited time, and that they would never have recourse to the practice of drafting. He was of opinion that we should at last be obliged to have recourse to balloting to fill up the regiments of the line, for they must be filled up, and he did not see that it would be productive of more inconvenience than the present measure. The safety of the country would be risked, if they did not meet an invading enemy with the best force that could be procured. That the militia would upon that, and every occasion, be found full of coucertainly would be necessary to mix them with rage and of enthusiasm, he had no doubt, but it a very large proportion of regular troops. The case of America had, upon a former occasion, been alluded to, and it was said that the Amerithe case of America was extremely different can militia were able to face regular troops; but from that of England. In America the nature of the country was better calculated for irregular troops. That the American troops were very good ones after three or four campaigns, he admitted, and so would the militia of England with the same experience, be equal to any veterans upon earth, though he confessed he should be very sorry that they should be taught in that manner. Scotland had always furnished some of the best and bravest troops in our army, and certainly afforded the best means of recruiting from the existence of clanships, &c. but in order to prevent, as it were, recruiting in that coun. try, a militia was formed, and 6000 men were locked up. in it. In Ireland he did not doubt but that a large force would be obtained, and by the means of balloting, though they were told, some time ago, that balloting in that country was impracticable. At the close of the last war, the militia of Ireland was disbanded, and a fencible army was established, but it was not ta leave Ireland: it was said, indeed, that they would volunteer their services to this country, but he had rather, for many reasons, that it should be a matter of original stipulation, than

stance of our not having any internal war for above a century; these were all reasons why we could not have so large a regular army as other countries. The honourable gentleman had said, that the recruiting service had not been fairly tried, to this he could only say, that the contrary was the fact. The hon. gentleman seemed to

of voluntary offer. If we were to persist in th's timid, irresolute system, against an enemy who was all vigour and enterprize; he would not say he would despair, because he hoped such a sentiment would never enter his breast, but he confessed his hopes would be very much depressed. He saw no reason why this measure was not brought forward at a much earlier period. Mi-think that it was a competition of bounties that nisters ought to have been prepared in March, when the King's Message was brought forward; they ought to have begun to prepare in November, when they detected the military spies who were sent into the country; they ought to have been preparing in December, instead of amusing the Public with delusive accounts of the state of the finance, and holding out prospects of a reduced peace establishment. They ought, in short, to have been preparing ever since the treaty of Amiens, for it appeared by his Majesty's Declaration, that from that time the conduct of France had been one series of insult and violence. He concluded with expressing his disapprobation of the present measure, for the reason he had already stated, and because it seemed as if miniters were determined to tread back the errors which had prevailed in our military system.

kept men from the regular service this he denied. It was not money that got soldiers for the regular service: men enlisted for many reasons, some because they wanted to go abroad, some because they wished to change their situation; in short they enlisted for many reasons beside that of money. In the course of the last year the number of recruits obtained for the army was equal to the average number generally obtained, and in the last 5 or 6 months, the number had been greater, although the recruiting for the militia was also going on. The recruiting for the army was now going on successfully (Mr. Elliot shook his head.) The hon. gent. seemed to deny that proposition, but as far as he was able to judge, his assertion was correct. The number of men now procured was upon an average as great as had been procured since the treaty of peace, that is to say, from 1000 to The SECRETARY at WAR said, he did en- 1200 men per month. But it was obvious that tertain the hope that gentlemen would have de- if a larger force was immediately necessary, such layed the discussion upon this bill till it was fair- a force could not be collected in that manner,and ly before the House; if that course had been that recourse must be had to some other means. adopted, much discussion would have been avoid-It had been said that we had not had recourse ed, because if they had seen the bill, they would to the measures that were adopted fast war : he have seen that there was no foundation for many had the highest respect, and even veneration, of the objections which had been made. He ad- for the administration of that time, but still he mitted, that gentlemen were justified, if they could not aprove of all the measures which were thought proper, in discussing the bill in this then adopted. The right hon. gent. then adstage. The honourable gentleman who had verted to the state of the army at different pespoken last, had spoken of treading back our for- riods of the last war, particularly in 1796, and mer errors, but how this measure, which was new contended that it was such as ought not to inin its principle and unprecedented in its extent, duce gentlemen to ad: ise the adoption of a could be called treading back our former errors, similar system. The question now was simply he could not conceive. The honourable gentle- this, what ought we to do at the present time, man had also complained that this plan was ill- and under the present circumstances? We had timed, and that it ought to have been produced a very large army on foot, but at the same time sooner. Upon this point he did not think that we were hard pressed on many points: it was the honourable gentleman was borne out by absolutely necessary that a large force should be his Majesty's Declaration, but he contended, raised, and he denied that they could be raised that ever since the conclusion of the definitive by recruiting, in the time which was necessary. treaty of peace, every measure had been adopt- But it was said this was merely a defensive sysed, consistent with the practice of this country, tem, and it was recommended to ballot for the to keep the army and the navy upon a large esta-army. Upon this point he agreed with an hon. blishment. It was open to the honourable gen- | gent. (Mr. Sheridan), and should oppose such leman who spoke last and his friends, to come forward last session, and to have declared their sentiments, if they did not think ministers were doing enough for the security of the country. He now came to those observations which had been made respecting the advantage of a regular army. Nobody, he believed, ever asserted that a regular army was not the best; but the honourable gentleman had himself stated the reasons why we could not have as large a regular army as other countries of equal population. The insular situation of the country, its civil and commercial occupation, its opulence, the circum

a measure upon every constitutional principle. Every man was bound to stand forward in defence of the country in time of danger, that was the principle upon which the militia was founded, and upon which this measure was founded. He should therefore object to the plan which had been suggested, because it was not regular, and because it was not constitutional. There was one thing he was sorry he did not mention, when he was opening this mea ure to the House, as it might have taken away some of the objections which he had made to this plan; he meant the power

which was to be given to men to enlist voluntarily from this force into the regulars. It ap peared to him not to be necessary to introduce a clause in the bill for that purpose, because if there was no clause to prevent it, as there was in the militia laws, the men would of course be allowed to volunteer into the regulars. If, however, the House was of opinion that such a clause ought to be introduced, he had no objection. The hon. gent. seemed to consider Scotland as the officina militum, and had contended that the establishment of a militia system there had prevented recruiting; but he should recollect that the growing prosperity of that country, operated as strongly against recruiting as in England. The hon gent. should also recollect, that many of the Scotch Highlanders were furnished by London, and that there were perhaps as many English and Irish as Scotch in these regiments. He would not now take up more of the time of the House, he hoped they would consider this Bill, as the best that could be adopted to raise the greatest numLer of men in the shortest time.

us to floop to; if it was thought that we had better add to the lift of his victims, if we could not he curolled as his conquerors; if gentlemen carried their sentiments of heroism to that extent, they would certainly be juftified in opposing this Bill; but he confessed such were not his sentiments. He therefore begged leave to ftate, that without renouncing active and offensive operations in due time, he was content to see that vigorous efforts were now made to ensure the defence of the country. Nay, he would go further and would say, that if he could not otherwise provide for the effectual security of these kingdoms, he would do it even at the cost of all offensive operations for the future. Therefore, if this alternative was put to him, you cannot in two months provide a regular army for general service, but you can in that time provide a force amply sufficient for the defence of he would make this Island a proud exemption this Island, he would without hesitation adopt it; from the shame and oppression which overwhelmed the Continent, rather than prematurely indulge in plans of offensive operations. Whatever was the number of our forces now, (and he believed it was more than double what we ever had at the commencement of a war), if we wanted to add to that force 100,000 or 120,000 men to secure the

MR. PITT said, he certainly viewed the ques-defence of these kingdoms, and if that number of tion in a very different point of view from the Hon. Gent. who spoke last but one; indeed it was almoft precisely upon those very points upon which the Hon. Gent. and his friends opposed this measure that he gave his assent to its general principle, subject to those improvements which might be adopted when it came into a committee. In his general approbation of the principle of this bill, he was the more confirmed by what had fallen from his Rt. Hon. Friend who had just sat down, particularly in the latter part of his speech. He considered this bill as being that which appeared to him to furnish the moft prompt and efficacious method of providing for that which he considered as our firft want, a large defensive force, and as laying the only sure foundation of giving us, within a reasonable time, that which he considered as necessary in the progress of the war, he meant the possession of a disposable force, to enable us to take advantage of any opening that might occur to act offensively against the enemy. If, however, he was asked, which of these two objects he wished to see fift accomplished, he would reply, with great submission to those who seemed to have excluded every other consideration from their minds but that of offensive warfare, that although he wished, as much as any man, to see the spirit of the country raised; though he wished not only to see the attempts of the enemy repelled, but his presumption chastised, and his power reduced, yet he nuft say, that at such a moment as the present, we must take counsel from prudence, as well as from spirit; our first object, ought to be that of defending ourselves, before we concur. red in the plans of th. se Hon. Gent. for inflicting vengeance for the aggressions and insults which we had suftained. If we were so romantic as to say, tha the obtaining a defensive force, which would be sufficient to disappoint the proud expectations of the enemy, was a consideration below our notice, if to ensure our safety against an enemy who had conquered, terrified, and oppressdone half of Europe, was a task too humble for

men could be obtained for limited, though not for general service, and if we should at the same time have ruin threatening us at our very doors, he would rather submit to what some gentlemen considered as degrading concessions, and make our internal security our firft, though our only object. He, however, by no means admitted that the measures which were now proposed to be adopted as the means of safety were such as would prevent us, when the opportunity occurred, from active offensive operations. He said this upon the best consideration that he was able to give the subject, and it was one to which he had not now turned his mind for the first time, but one upon which he had deeply and maturely reflected. He would not now enter into any discussion upon the sta e of the army laft war, or upon the means by which it had been recruited, although that was a subject which appeared to be completely misunderstood by many gentlemen, and even by his Rt. Hon. Friend who spoke laft. But without entering info that at present, he was of opinion that, even trom the statement of those gentlemen themselves, the measure now proposed, and those which might naturally be engrafted upon it, was the best that could be adopted under the present circumstances, even for raising a force for general service. If then we had two objects to obtain, the first of which was to ensure our safety; and secondly, that of being strong and active for offensive warfare: if there was but one way of attaining the first object, viz. that of taking a large force for limited service, and if that could be shewn to be the best mode of collecting a large offensive force, he should desire to know what more could be necessary to recommend the principle of the measure now before the House? The House was not called upon to adopt it in all its details, the question was, whether they approved so much of the outline as to go into a committee upon it. He contended, that unless you meant to begin with a proposition, which appeared prepofterous; unless they agreed with his Rt. Hon. Friend (Mr.

was for the purposes of defence, not excluding at the same time the means of offence. He should therefore think that it was no objection to this measure, that it left us the means of offence equal to those possessed by our ancestors. He was still ready to admit, that if we could procure, with equal facility and promptitude, a large force for general service, it certainly would be more desirable than a force for limited service. He admitted that a force that had seen a great deal of service abroad, where the officers had obtained skill by long service, and where the troops had been sharers in the labour and glories of the officers, where they had obtained that which no general rules of discipline could inculcate, and which could be learnt in no other school, he admitted, that such a force would be the best, both for the purposes of offence and defence. But if the plan which had been suggested was adopted, if you were to ballot men for general service, did gentlemen suppose that in balloting for men you could also ballot for skill and experience; if you took men from the loom and the plough, was it to be imagined that the mere circumstance of their gointo experienced and disciplined soldiers? If you were now to ballot for men for general service, did any man suppose that in the course of this year they would be more expert, more disciplined, or more fit to meet the troops of Buonaparté than they would be if raised under the plan now proposed for limited service? If indeed Buonaparte could be prevailed upon to enter into a kind of cartel with you, not to attack you at home until your new levies had acquired experience and dis

Windham), that we ought to have no militia at all. He admitted, indeed, that his Rt. Hon. Friend seemed to indicate that such was not his opinion; but he was excusable in supposing such were the sentiments of his Rt. Hon. Friend, when even his Hon. Friend (Mr. Elliot) who not only had the pleasure of hearing his speeches in public, but had the advantage of knowing his sentiments in private, seemed to think there was a shade of difference of opinion between them. But if the House were to agree with those Hon. Gent, either that we were to have no militia at all, or only a militia of 30,000 men; if we were now to disband our large militia eftablishment, he begged leave to ask, if gentlemen were aware what might happen to us in the three or four months which we should take to turn our militia into a regular army, unless we were to adopt the very system which was now proposed. There must certainly subsist a certain degree of competition between the militia and the army, and the establishment of a large militia force muft necessarily obftruct the recruiting for the army: this was a proposition which he was ready to admit; but this could not have escaped those by whom the militia wasing into the regulars would at once convert them first established, and those by whom the various laws respecting the militia had since been proposed during a period of more than 40 years. It was said, that the eftablishment of a militia was incompatible with our being a military country, and with our possessing the means of offensive operations. But before the House acquiesced in these propositions, he begged them to recollect when it was that the militia syftem was introduced, and to see whether it was then such an impediment to the recruiting of the army: whe-cipline abroad, he admitted the suggestions of the ther it did then so effectually damp the military spirit of the country? It was introduced at a period to which we should be referred (with the exception only of the glorious wars of Marlborough) at that period of our hiftory, in which we had embarked the deepest in continental connexion, in which our army was pushed to its utmost extent, and when the general syftem of this country bore more a character of vigorous and offensive wartare than it had ever done. He was therefore not a little surprised when he heard it gravely asserted that the existence of a large militia force was incompatible with the existence of a large military force, and deftructive to the military spirit of the country. But it was admitted, even by those gentlemen, that this was a question of degree, and it was lated by his Rt. Hon. Friend (Mr. Windham) that all species of the force of this country were good in their different degrees. Now if it was admitted that the militia, to the extent of 30,000 men was good in its kind, and if that force was considered as necessary forty years ago, those Hon. Gent. would admit that under the present circumftances, a larger force of every kind was necessary, and if we wanted 30,000 for the militia then, we wanted a much larger force now. It must be obvious to every man who considered the events which had occurred for the laft few years in Europe, that the necessity for a defensive force was augmented in a much larger proportion than our necessity for an offensive force, because it could not be imagined that the force which we should want to carry on the war abroad, would be equal to that which we should want for the purpose of defence at home. The part in which the pressure had moft increased

Hon. Gent. ought to be attended to, but as that was not likely to be the case, he thought the present plan was the most eligible that could be devised. If there were not means attached to this bill for making the force now proposed to be rais ed auxiliary to the general army, it would be an objection in his mind, and he was of opinion that an affirmative clause ought to be introduced into the bill upon that subject-Unless it was determined to destroy the militia altogether, there muft be a competition not only of men but of bounties. If this force was once raised, and if 15,000 men were wanted for the army by the end of this year, would any man doubt, after the experience they had had of the militia last war, that there would be any difficulty in obtaining them voluntarily ? The men who served in the militia would have no inducement to enter into the regulars, but that feeling which belonged to them in common with every other good subject: they had besides strong feelings to attach them to their own regiments, and he knew that the officers of the militia felt a great reluctance that their men should enlist in the regulars. His opinion therefore of the resources that were to be obtained from this new force for the regulars, was not a matter of conjecture, but of certainty, from the experience we had already had upon the subject. Having said so much on the general outline of this measure, he would glance at a point which had been stated on a former occasion; he meant that of the power to recruit from any corps raised for a definite purpose, which might, if carried to a great extent, render it useless, by undermining its dis cipline: that was an observation which might be very true, and would have great force, if the re