ruiting was allowed to be carried on at all times, and indiscriminately by all parties and descriptions, and more particularly so if that flagitious system, known under the name of Crimping, was to go on; but all these objections, or at least most of them, wou'd be done away, if we recruited on given days of muster, in which a regiment was called over, and then some were immediately allowed to declare themselves for general service; | in that way we might have twice or three times more than we wanted; and it should be left to the officers who should have the privilege of doing so, and then, he had no doubt but the result would be such as he had ftated. He saw no neéessity of ftating long beforehand, the time when this recruiting was to take place; it should be left to his Majesty to declare the time and places where it should take place, a fortnight beforehand, and it might be provided that no more than a given number should be taken within the year. By this no soldier would know when he would be taken from his officer, under whose command he was serving, so that he would have all the inducements of his profession to be steady in the discharge of his duty. By these means he thought that the objection to recruiting from one corps into another, on the score of the bad effect it had upon discipline, would be obviated. He thought this observation grew out of the proposition he had stated upon this subject, and that it was a more ready mode, and would be more effectual in its execution for recruiting for the general service, than that which his right hon. friend would build on the deftruction of the Militia. He thought the matter of bounty which would attend this, comparatively of less consequence. He did not mean to say it was no burthen on the country, and he thought the Bill should be framed as well as it could to keep down the price of substitutes; but as to recruiting the army, he wished to see that effected by moderate bounties. At the same time, as he stated on a former occasion, if it should appear doubtful whether any charge imposed by way of commutation would be sufficient to ensure a production of efficient service, that was to say, the certainty of a subftitute for the person drawn, some other measure than a commutation should be resorted to; and to speak plainly, he had great doubt whether the syftem of pecuniary compensation for non-service should be adopted at all: whether any sum of money whatever should be taken instead of service, either by the person on whom the lot fell, or by his substitute; but on the contrary, that every man drawn shall either serve personally, or provide a subftitute. At the same time, he should wish to avoid as much measures that might be thought unnecessarily strong, but to decline nothing that was really necessary, and with this sentiment he thought we should follow the principle of the Militia Law, and he would add, that a great part of the merit of the present plan consifted in its simplicity; it was that of raising a number of men out of the community for the purpose of defending it, and doing that in a way that was known to that community, and to which they had on no former occasion objected; and also raising officers to inftruct and command them in a way that had been partly tried and approved of, because indeed, the body when raised could not be otherwise officered. He thought it desirable that we should adopt this measure with out any hesitation; neither could it be objected to on the score of novelty, for novelty in principle it had none, either in the manner of raising the men, or in the burthen to be caft upon the country in consequence of it; and he thought highly indeed on the advantages it would produce to the country. If, however, it should be deemed prudent to admit of a pecuniary penalty for non-service, or of providing a substitute, it should be under some modifications. He did not hesitate to declare that he should prefer a positive enactment that every person ballotted should either personally serve or provide a substitute; but if it should be deemed expedient to allow a pecuniary compensation to be given instead of either, he should propose some alteration in the present plan in that particular. He should propose, that if a person ballotted neither offered to serve in person, nor produced a substitute, that then the pecuniary compensation should be equal to the rank, order, and degree in life of the person ballotted. He knew it might be said this was only raising a revenue, and that it was not money but men we wanted; he admitted the truth of that observation, but it was open to this answer, that if £20 were the penalty, the mass of society would think it enough for each individual, and many of them would on that sum either serve or provide a subftitute, and so the object of the Bill, would, with regard to the mass of the public, be answered; for it was out of them, after all, our army must be made up, and their failing to produce a substitute would compel them to serve, and this would be evidence of the difficulty of commuting .service for a small sum. But the sum of £20 would be nothing to persons of high condition: would answer no purpose, but be the very thing they would want; they would pay the sum cheerfully, and they would not in the leaft degree interest themselves in procuring men for the service; the sum therefore which they should be called upon to contribute, should bear a proportion to the rank and ftation of the party ballotted, so as to make it his intereft to use his influence, to procure a subftitute. The advantage of this diftinction would be, that every man of fortune who should happen to be ballotted, was turned into a sort of recruitiag officer in the service to save his purse, but if the sum was moderate, he would sooner pay it than to give himself any trouble. Undoubtedly, then, if the sum was moderate, it would not answer the purpose which all of us had in view, the raising speedily a large body of men. The sum should be such, then, as to quicken the industry of persons of the higher rank to procure men. He begged pardon for thus detaining the House upon these points, because they were more fit for a coinmittee, but that he wished most of all to press upon the House, was that we were all agreed in the necessity of augmenting our force. He believ ed the House was very generally ready to adopt the plan of his right hon. friend (the Secretary at War,) and also to adopt the sentiment of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), which was, that we ought to make use of all the means in our power to increase our force for general service; and also that we should raise ftill more temporary force for any emergency that may arise. He knew the warmth and noble ardour of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham). He knew that no one burned more than he did with enthusiastic zeal and disinterested patriotism. He know there was no sacrifice either in fortune or in person, which he was not perfectly ready to make for the service of his country, either to preserve its rights at home, or to vindicate is glory abroad, in any way that might be deemed most useful, perhaps to retrieve the loft character of a great part of Europe, if it should be disposed at any time to change its present desperate situation. Those powers, if they were not loft to all sense of their situation, would find an opportunity of recovering their honour. But he trusted, that no zeal on that account, upon objects which were at present out of our reach, would induce his right hon. friend to obftruct a measure which was calculated for our immediate defence. He knew the feelings of his right hon. friend to be as much alive as those of any human being for the true interests of his country; and if he still opposed this measure, it inuft be because he still remained unconvinced that the bill would have the effect which was expected from it. He should, indeed, be sorry to differ from his right hon. friend, upon this most important measure, intended for the safety of the state, yet he had this consolation, that however widely his right hon. friend and himself differed in their votes upon the present measure, yet they agreed exactly in their sentiments. point was, what effect this measure might have On the future recruiting service of the army? He was not sanguine enough to expect that the re cruiting of the army would go on with much celerity at any time under our military system; certainly less now, since the great bounties had been given; the very memory of such large bounties, even if they could be discontinued, would considerably impede the recruiting of the army, for men would be slow to enlist for less than others had been accustomed to receive. He did not deny that the present measure would procure more men in a short period at the present moment than could be procured in any other way; but here he came to a consideration which had hitherto been a great deal too much ne glected. He thought that the error of ministers was, that of neglecting that which he had followed upon this occasion, namely, that of entire attention to the opinions of military men. A military man knew very well the difference be tween that which was important and that which was unimportant in military matters; between a regiment which had been long and one that had beca newly raised, composed of good or of bad men; but a minister in the House of Commons knew nothing. of any such difference: with him a regiment was a regiment, and that was all he knew of the matter; and this was the case Mr. WINDHAM proceeded to consider the diffe- with almost every body who talked upon the subrent points which had been stated in support of ject in that House. But he could not help conthe bill now before the House. He said that if sidering the nature of the force, and he was he remained still unconvinced of the propriety afraid his right hon. friend suffered himself to be of this measure, it was not owing to the want of deceived when he talked of the speedy progress clearness of the statement of his right hon. friend which this system will make. As to providing (Mr. Pitt) in the support of it. There was in ad- officers for this body of men when raised, the dition to the advantage which the measure it- first ressource we had was the half-pay list; now, self received from the abilities of his right hon. without disparaging the half-pay list, and feeling friend another advantage, and that was an adas he did from what had been said already by vantage to the opponents of the bill, for he had way of comment on his former speech, the nestated the subject so clearly that those who dif- cessity of caution in what he said, yet in speakfered from him had their way cleared before them ing of the half-pay lift it must be considered that and their labour shortened, since he had brought we could not get from that lift, officers of the into one view every point that had a bearing upon same description as those who were in actual the subject.-There were two leading points to be service, although no man would deny there were considered upon this occasion: What were the in that lift many very excellent officers, many, best means for our defence, and what were the indeed, who were upon that lift only because best means of prosecuting the war with vigour ? their regiments were reduced: some of them also His right hon. friend had misconceived his idea of were upon the lift because they had been woundthe present case; that while we were looking ed, but they were not all the better or the most forward towards our safety, he was considering fit for service on that account. Many of them other objects that were at a distance. It was had been put upon that lift on account of declinwith him, he hoped, as it was with all prudenting health; they were not to be considered as men in the consideration of human affairs. His right hon. friend had said, that that which is most interesting to us at the present moment, is the safery of the country: Now, there was no doubt, that if those two objects, namely, the safety of this country, and the vigorous prosecution of the war in the way he recommanded it, by increasing our disposable military force could not be reconciled, which of the two objects should be preferred? The safety of the country was undoubtedly the first object, for, if we failed in that, there was an end of all consideration on our part of the question, of restoring Europe by any means to be adopted by us; if the necessity on our part was so great as had been stated, we might lay every thing else out of our consideration. But he would take up the queftion simply, of how far this measure was calculated for our immediate defence? The first VOL. III. the moft fit for service either. Many had been put upon that lift because it was not deemed proper they should continue active in the service. He hoped they were good officers, but yet these were considerations not to be disregarded, and we should not certainly expect from this lift as much exertion, as if the same number of officers were taken from the actual service; nor was there a comparison to be made between the progress they would make, and an equal number of officers in actual service, and therefore he could not help doubting the efficacy of this source of providing officers for this force, when raised. He thought the measure now proposed would not answer he purpose for which it was intended, and instead of it he wished to see the troops of the line increased. But it was said, that the urgency and pressing nature of the case demanded measures of expedition. Now, what * 3 H were our ideas on this subje&? If he could be assured that the ateempt on this island would be delayed for a time to suit our convenience, and until we had sufficiently increased our force, and made it fit for action, this measure would do well; but as we had no security for that, he thought we had better increase our army; and for that purpose he was of opinion that we should have recourse to compulsive measure; nor was he alarmed at the present crisis, left such measures, provided they were not accompanied by unnecessary harshness or severity, would be objected to as unconstitutional. He said this without any difficulty, because he did think, after much deliberation, that this was the only way to provide effectually for our safety; nor were we to talk too much of the sacrifice which we were to make. Upon this danger, against which we were now talking of providing, what were we to say if it came upon us, as it might come upon us, within two months, when our bill was hardly paft! He was not speaking with any view of alarming minifters, but he wished it to be remembered, that the bill now before the House would take some time in passing; and after passing he would ask, how long it would be before we got the men and after we had got the men, he would ask how long would it be before they were fit for service? If we had the invasion at all, we might have it in the middle of our ballot; and he would ask what the House would think of a mass so full of defects as a military body as this must be at its first assemblingr full as it must be from the nature of things, of discontent and sourness, incapable of military movements, and totally unfit for efficient military service; and discontented as they naturally would be, on leaving their houses and families. What sort of an army of reserve was this to be for our protection in the hour of peril? Suppose our other army should meet a check, was our last stake to be trufted to this army of reserve? The defeat of a regular army did not prevent it from operating again, for they knew how to rally, but a defeat of an irregular mass put an end to its operations; it was sure to be thrown into confusion, and to become useless after a defeat. He thought it a bad policy in us to put our last stake upon such an irregular force as this, by which one defeat might be our ruin. He objected to it, because people might trust too much to it, and might say they had provided a security againft all danger, by providing this mass, whereas the people ought to depend upon themselves. He thought that a smaller number of regular troops would be better than this mass. He recommended to us to imitate the conduct of the Vendeans, who although weak in themselves, yet by military skill and prudence, held out for years, nor did they give up at all, until the greatest part of Europe had given up. He did not, with some persons, think, that, let what would be the consequence, we ought to risk out all in a battle to save London. Those persons seemed to think, that, if London were taken, the country would instantly be subjugated; but, he trusted, that while we had an army, we should dispute the last inch of the land. He saw in this plan so many objections, that he knew not how to state them within a tolerable compass. He had asked how long it would be before we could get these 50,000 men, and when they were got, how long we should be before they were trained. He might ask how long we should be before we cloathed them? How long would it be before we had breeched our army of reserve? He was afraid that we migt have to encounter the danger against which they were intended to provide long before they would be fit for service; and if they were employed in acttive service too soon, they might do more mischief than good. Having juftified his former language upon this subject, and disclaiming any intention of offending the mlitia by it, he concluded with observing, that he perceived the general opinion of the House appeared to be in favour of the measure now before the House, but he had thought it his duty to ftate his sentiments. He had great reliance on the militia which had been well trained, but he denied that such an assertion was inconsistent with the opinion which he had given of the army of reserve. He objected to this syftem because it interfered with the recruiting service, and also because he was aware that this body would be inadequate to the end for which it was designed, that of an efficient and immediate military force; he was sure that great discontent would arise in the body on firft assembling, and that they would be much too deficient in military skill to juftify the hopes which were entertained of them. These were the grounds on which he differed from his right hon. friend; at the same time, if this measure was successful in Parliament, he should do every thing in his power to render it efficient; for he felt as others did for the safety of the country, and only differed from them as to the means of preserving it. LORD CASTLEREAGH said he wished the present subject to meet the fulleft discussion. He admitted, with his right hon. friend, that the object of the enemy was the subjugation of this country, but he differed with him as to the means which they possessed of effecting that object. He could not however conceive why the right hon. gent. should think it necessary to discuss whether London was a primary or secondary object of consideration, nothing but a degree of baseness or cowardice in the people of this country, which he could not for a moment suppose, would suffer the enemy to advance far from the shore. The right hon. geut. had gone into one extreme with respect to relying upon the efficiency of regular troops, almost to the exclusion of all other; and had then gone into another extreme, and contended for the advantages resulting from irregular troops, instancing La Vendée; still the right hon. gent. had contended that the present measure went to conftitute an efficient force. The country feel the advan、 tages and the happiness which they enjoyed under their present conftitution and government, and feel that it was necessary to make great efforts to defend them. The arguments of the right hon. gent. went to this alternative, that there must be either a much larger force maintained in time of peace, or that we must be much weaker at the commencement of a war. He felt the necessity of placing the counttry so completely out of danger as to put and end to all speculation on the part of the enemy as to the probable success of any attempt against it. With respect to the objection of this measure interfering with the recruiting for the the line, it would on the contrary assist it; those who were to be enrolled under the present bill, were to be permitted to enlist in regiments of the line, and there was every reason to believe that a military spirit would be infused into them which would the more readily induce them to enter into the line. His right hon. friend had said that there were many old and infirm officers on the half-pay list unfit for service, but it should be recollected that there were twenty battalions disbanded last year, whose services for a limited time, the officers, of which there was every reason to believe were effective, and, besides, it was not mandatory in his Majesty to appoint those only: besides, if new regiments were to be raised according to the proposition of his right hon. friend, they must be officered in the same way. He conceived that no measure was better calculated to produce the desired effect than the present, and that the experiment of raising troops of the line proposed by his right. hon. friend, would place the country in great danger. With respect to the recruiting service being injured, it was a fact, that during the competition between the militia and the line, more recruits were obtained for the latter than before, Dr. LAURENCE rose to expose the unfairness of the arguments with which his right hon. friend's (Mr. Windham) speech had been combated. There was nothing, in fact, preposterous in his supposition respecting the consequences of the possessions of the capital or the dock-yards by the enemy. It was fitting to urge every topic, drawn from every possible view of danger, arising from a contest with such an enemy as we have to contend with, as an incitement to ministers to watch carefully, and be ready to repel him, whenever and wherever we meet him. In case of invasion every hill ought to be a fortress, every ditch an entrenchment, and every peasant a sharp shooter. His right hon. friend bad been accused of despairing. But what was the fact? He had said, that London taken, was not conquering the country! Was that the language of despair, or of imprudence? He had recommended making every man a warrior for his country, and exemplified its use by the Vendean war. Was that incorrect? No! By that war, he had it on good authority, more republicans fell, than by the arms of all the allies! The learned gent. then discussed, at considerable length, the nature of the different kinds of force, best suited to the circumstances of this country, in which he quoted the sentiments of Sir Walter Raleigh, and others. He had rather fight the enemy at first than wait for him too long. But this plan was sadly defective. It provided no means for the chastisement of the insolence of the foe, should he dare to invade us, and be successful enough to set his hostile foot on our shores. After driving him back with disgrace from our land, what means did this bill provide for carrying the war back upon himself, and for punishing his insolence and ambition? Why, then, you must model your whole system, and wait the effect of new bills, and new plans of strengthening your disposable force ! How long must it be after beating him from the coast of Essex or Kent, new before you can chastise his guilty head for the insults he has committed on you. He has called us a nation of shopkeepers. Are we to lay like base metal, nailed to the counter, till he makes his appearance! Are we to wait for him! The learned gent. praised the minister highly for his proposals of finance, but he could not equally applaud him for his military efforts. As for the burthens on the country, he thought virtue could surely bear to be taxed as much for her own support as vice. There was, however, a radical defect in this new system of defence, from its confined operation. He did not think any thing within reason would serve as a bounty for the regulars, in consequence of this army of reserve. On the subject of the supplementary militia, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Burke), now departed from this mortal wo.ld, at the time of its proposal, expressed himself, as he always did, in terms too strong to be easily forgotten. In his last illness, when he could not raise his hand to write, he dictated the letter he should now read to the House on that subject. [The learned doctor then read the letter which will be found at page 966 of this volume]. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the melancholy presages contained in the letter just read, which came from the pen of a gent. whom none respected more than himself, had not been fulfided by subsequent circumstances. The very measure alluded to of calling out the supplementary militia, had tended to produce the greatest advantages, from thence we had derived those exertions in Egypt by which the country had been so materially benefited. With respect to the present measure, the point of issue was this, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would forego the immediate advantage of obtaining 50,000 men for the defence of the country, from amongst whom men would be permitted to enter into the line, for the sake of the chance of procuring men to recruit the line without the adoption of this measure. Another right hon. gent. (Mr. Elliot) would even forego the advantage of the additional 60,000 militia besides the present measure, for the sake of the regular army. He thought it was scarcely necessary to reason the question, experience had shewn that when the militia was kept up, they had the advantage of the largest army, disposable for foreign service, ever before known, and that the militia system did not interfere with the recruiting service for the regtilar army; but on the countrary, he felt that they could not do such a violence to the public feeling as to enact a conscription for the troops of the line, as to force persons to enlist in regiments which might be sent to any part of the world; such a measure would be contrary to the spirit of the constitution, and could tend to produce those discontents, which it was said by some, would arise from the present measure. Ministers had been charged with a criminal remissness, but he contended, that the facts proved that they had done all they could for the public service. He was convinced that there was *.3 H 2 no chance of permanent or secure peace until they shewed that every attempt of the enemy against this country must be fruitless, and that they would not own their safety to the forbearance of any power whatever. The criterion he should propose would be, that those persons above 45, who paid 301. and upwards to the assessed taxes, should, if balloted for, be bound to provide a substitute. The outline of the plan of exemptions was nearly the same as in the Supplementary Militia. He should propose to take the 22d of June, the day on which the bill was inWAR│troduced, as the day beyond which some of the exemptions were not to extend - such as articled clerks, teachers of licensed congregations, volunteers, &c. Another class of exemptions was the yeomanry and volunteer corps. He proposed to strike out the proviso which related to them, and to introduce a clause stating that the exemption should extend to all volunteer corps whose services had been accepted previous to the 22d June, and whose services were co-extensive with the military district in which they were situated. In cases of large cities and towns, such as London, Bristol, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Glasgow, York, Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham, he should propose to exempt the volunteers of those places, provided they consented to do garrison duty. It would, for many purposes, be necessary to have troops in those places, and if the volunteers would offer their services for that service, he thought they were entitled to exemption. He should also propose, that they should be bound to attend muster and exercise, a certain number of days in the year. By the last act, which was made with a view to a peace establishment, the number was fixed at five days in the year, but that would not be enough in time of war, he should therefore propose that they attend at least two days in the month. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, June 27 —(Min. 975.) [ARMY OF RESERVE.] -THE SECRETARY AT wished that the bill might be re-committed, in order to divide it into two: the one as it regarded England and Ireland; the other as it regarded Scotland. This division would be commodious, and would facilitate the execution of the measure. He next requested the committee would permit him to go through the bill, and point out the amendments which it was thought advisable to make. If he should not enter into a minute explanation of all, it was because they were not of so much importance as to call for such an explanation. He should now begin with the clause which prescribed the quotas to be furnished by the different counties.-The quotas for Scotland being stated it would be necessary to leave out that clause. The number which each county was to furnish varied from the regulations contained in the militia act of last session upon that subject; because government was now in possession of the latest returns of the numbers of men liable to serve. By these returns it appeared that the number of men liable to serve in the militia for Great Britain, amounted to 900,000 men; of that number about 750,000 were liable to serve for England and Wales. The quota of the counties had been assigned in consequence of these returns, which furnished the most correct means of apportioning the number of men. It was proposed that no substitute should be taken They had also received some information from the who had more than three children,-Upon this subreturns under the Population Act. Upon the fullest ject it might not be improper to refer to the regulaexamination which it had been possible to give to tions respecting the Supplementary Militia. In that this subject, it appeared that 80 or 84 men out of act there was no reference whatever to the number every 10,000, of the general population, would fur- of children of the substitute. He felt it his duty to nish the 40,000 men to be raised by Great Britain. adopt the same principle in this measure, and also This was taken at a medium, but in no case was that the families of the substitutes should be provided there taken above 16 more than the 84, nor in any for by the parishes, as in the case of the militia; case more than 16 less than the 84. As far, there- and that the parishes should be re-imbursed by the fore, as England and Wales was concerned, he receiver general, out of the public money.-The next hoped the quota to be furnished by each county was clause which related to the fine which was to be paid correctly apportioned; he knew of no means that by those who did not serve or provide a substitute, he could be had recourse to, that were so likely to pro- should leave out, for the purpose of introducing one duce an equal apportionment. With regard to Scot- founded upon a suggestion of his right honorable land, the quota had been regulated upon precisely friend (Mr. Pitt). By the militia laws every person the same principle. He understood, however, that who was balloted, and who did not appear or find a some objections might be made on the part of Scot- substitute, was fined in the sum of ten pounds. In land, to this part of the plan. It might therefore, the case of the Supplementary Militia, it was raised be better to ressort to the numbers which Scotland to fifteen pounds. He saw no objection to the introwas to furnish under the Militia Act. When the bill duction of a similar principle into this bill. But it respecting Scotland came into the committee, it appeared reasonable, that persons who were in very would be time enough to consider that part of the different situations with regard to property, should subject. At all events, the whole number to be fur- not be fined exactly in the same sum. He therefore nished by Scotland was 6000 men.-The bill, as ori- proposed, that in the case of persons between 16 and ginally framed, proceeded upon the principle of the 45, who did not provide substitutes or serve, that Militia Bill, and extended only to persons of from 18 they should pay a fine of 20 1.; that fine was to be to 45. The basis of the militia system being perso-paid to the parish, who would be called upon, at all nal service, that regulation might be proper; but on this occasion it would be worth while to consider whether the burthen might not be in some degree alleviated by extending that provision. It would be necessary then to look to persons above the age of 45, who were possessed of competent property. It would therefore be proposed that persons between 16 and 45, if of a proper height, &c. should be liable to serve personally or by substitute, and that persons above 45, and being possessed of sufficient property, should, if drawn, be obliged to find a substitute, events, to make up its quota. The parish were to be authorised to lay out as much of that money, in providing a substitute, as was necessary, and the sur plus was to go in aid of the poor-rate. In addition to the fine, he should propose that a sum of 51. should be paid for every 101. which such person paid to the assessed taxes, until it amounted to 1001. That additional fine was to be paid to the receiver-general, to be applied to the recruiting service of the army. As it was an objet to encourage the raising of volunteers, he had proposed that when the volunteers |