The additional cost at the mill of that fabric, if it were made entirely of the same quality of virgin wool would be $1.14 a yard more. Mr. SIMS. What is it now? Mr. CLARK. The mill cost is $3.24, and if it were made of all virgin wool it would cost $1.14 a yard more. At the same time it is a very good serviceable fabric and would give anybody a good coat, or whatever they wanted to use it for. No. 111 has 50 per cent virgin wool, 30 per cent reworked wool, and 20 per cent cotton. The mill cost of that, as it is, is $2.23. If it were made of all virgin wool, it would cost 50 cents a yard more. These are mill costs, bear in mind, which when they get to the consumer have considerable added to them in one way or another by reason of the number of hands through which they go. No. 126 is made of 100 per cent reworked wool. That is a chinchilla and a heavy fabric of that character can be made very well with 100 per cent reworked wool. It makes a very good fabric indeed. The mill value is $3.09 a yard. If it were made of virgin wool it would cost $2.10 a yard more. Mr. BARKLEY. How about the comparative durability? Mr. CLARK. The all virgin wool would be undoubtedly more durable, but not to the extent of the difference in price. No. 127 is also 100 per cent reworked wool. That is what we call a Melton. The cost at the mill is $2.53. If it were made of all virgin wool it would be $1.50 more per yard.. No. 130-A and No. 130 are two fabrics of similar appearance. They are overcoating fabrics. No. 130-A is 10 per cent new wool, 80 per cent reworked wool, and 10 per cent cotton. The mill price of that not the mill cost but the mill price is $2.65; No. 130, a fabric of very similar character but made entirely of virgin wool, mill selling price is $6.60 per yard. The mill selling price of the other fabric is $2.65. If the first fabric, No. 130-A, were branded with its material content, it would give it a decidedly black eye with anybody looking at it, and it ought not to have a black eye, because it would give anybody an ample amount of service for the price charged for it. Mr. SIMS. You think it would increase the sale of No. 130, which sells at $6.60 a yard, if the mark was stamped on it, and stamped on the other fabric at $2.65 a yard? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I think it would decrease the sale of No. 130-A. Mr. SIMS. Then there would be a good many millionaires in the country. Mr. CLARK. The consumer would substitute some other fabric or those that could pay the price would take the No. 130 fabric. They would not buy No. 130-A with that stamp on it? Mr. BARKLEY. That is for an overcoat? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Mr. BARKLEY. How many yards does it take to make a man's overcoat? Mr. CLARK. About 23 yards for an average overcoat and 34 yards to make an average suit of clothes. Mr. BARKLEY. Then about $15 worth of goods go into a coat represented by this $6.60 fabric? Mr. CLARK. That is the mill price. Mr. MONTAGUE. A tailor would charge you for an overcoat of that kind from $125 to $150? Mr. CLARK. Undoubtedly. Now here is sample No. 126-A, which only came this morning, and I am showing it to you and comparing it with No. 126. which is also a chinchilla. No. 126 is made of 100 per cent reworked wool, and No. 126-A, so far as the face of it is concerned, is made entirely of virgin wool, and I think the back of it must have some reworked wool. I am sorry I have not the sale price of it. It only came this morning. It is made by one of our very best mills that makes fabrics of very great reputation. I know that in all probability it is a fabric of very high price, and it is a better fabric than No. 126. But with 100 per cent reworked wool stamped on No. 126, it would deprive the public of a very good fabric at a very low price. Now I just want to show a few samples here. I think I will just take them up and leave them with you. Mr. Chairman, here are some delicate fabrics that it would not be practicable to put that stamp upon the back. It would either deface the fabric on goods that are made up without any lining, or it would show through under certain lights which would be very, very objectionable. There is a very fine fabric of large sale which is made by the Pacific Mills, which gives you an example of the cotton warp and worsted filling fabric. The cotton warp is about 55 per cent of the weight and the worsted filling is about 45 per cent. That would have to be stamped 55 per cent cotton and 45 per cent virgin wool. These samples are simply stamped to show all wool light-weight fabrics. Here are some fabrics of delicate light colors. With a stamp on them it would show through. Here are some of the plaid back overcoatings that were spoken of. Those fabrics with the plaid backs are made up without any lining, and to put one of these stamps on every yard in the back of that fabric would be very objectionable. No one of you gentlemen having a plaid black overcoat would like to have a stamp put on it. That is all I have to present, Mr. Chairman. (Thereupon, at 12.20 p.m., the committee took a recess until 2 p. m.) AFTER RECESS. STATEMENT OF MR. FREDERIC S. CLARK-Continued. The CHAIRMAN. Are the representatives of the American Association of Woolen and Worsted Manufacturers ready to proceed? Mr. SIMS. Is Mr. Clark through, Mr. Chairman? If so, I should like to ask him a few questions. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Clark, Judge Sims would like to ask you a few questions. Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Mr. SIMS. I believe you concede, or rather contend, that if this bill or a bill similar to the one presented here was to become a law, all woolen goods or virgin woolen goods would be higher than they are now? Mr. CLARK. I think so. Mr. SIMS. And that all other woolen goods, what you call reworked, shoddy or mixed, would be lower than they are now? Mr. CLARK. I think so. Mr. SIMS. But the cost of the woolen goods, I mean those made of virgin or new wool, which would be supposed to advance in cost, and then all the other woolens, taking the sum of the cost of both kinds of manufacture, would it not be about equal to what it would be otherwise? Mr. CLARK. I think that would be a pretty hard question to answer. Mr. SIMS. In other words, you think that shoddy or reworked or mixed goods, as a class, would not bring as large a sum of money to the manufacturers as they now bring to the manufacturers? Mr. CLARK. I think not. Mr. SIMS. And that all other goods, under this bill, would bring to the manufacturers a larger amount than they now do? Mr. CLARK. I think so. Mr. SIMS. What I am trying to get at is, either with or without the bill, the public as a whole would neither suffer nor benefit to any appreciable extent? Mr. CLARK. Well, I think the public would suffer in this waythat they would pay more for their clothing than they are now paying for the reason that they would not buy these fabrics with a certain percentage of shoddy, as they would discard them, and they would lose the benefit that they now get from that class of fab ic, and they would pay a larger price for a fabric that met their desires. In that way their clothing would cost them more. Mr. SIMS. They would be able to get these fabrics at even lower prices? Mr. CLARK. But my point is that they would not buy them. Mr. SIMS. Would they do without them? Would they do without the lower-priced clothing? Mr. CLARK. They would not do without clothing, of course. Mr. CLARK. Naturally, they would not do without clothing. What I mean is that the majority of the people of the country would pay more for their clothing because they would go after these other kinds. Mr. SIMS. They would only pay more for those that you say would be benefited by the law? Mr. CLARK. I think so. Mr. SIMS. And they would pay less for the other? Mr. CLARK. Yes. Mr. SIMS. But they could not get all-wool clothing? Mr. CLARK. That is true. Mr. SIMS. They would be willing to pay more for the other, you say? Mr. CLARK. They would be compelled to buy them. Mr. SIMS. Are they not compelled to buy them now? Mr. CLARK. I suppose they are, but now they go and pick out a fabric according to what they want to pay for it, depending upon the appearance of the fabric, and so on. We maintain that they would not do that. They would be confused in trying to do that under the operation of this law. Mr. SIMS. You do not assume that the manufacturers deceive anybody, or try to deceive anybody? These manufacturers are themselves experts as to the materials, as to the goods they buy; but it does seem to me that the general public, the laymen, the unadvised, would be more easily imposed upon, as things are now, than if this bill, or something similar to it, should become a law. Mr. CLARK. I do not think so. I think that they would get no information at all that would enable them to judge the clothes, because the percentages would mean absolutely nothing. Mr. SIMS. In other words, you think the manufacturer would get just as much for the manufacture of these reworked goods, shoddy, as he does now. But I am very much afraid that the consumer of the article who buys a single suit, for instance, would be much more easily imposed upon. Mr. CLARK. I do not agree with you on that, sir. We have tried to show why we do not agree with that standard. Mr. SIMS. You have agreed that these goods would sell lower. Mr. SIMS. Then, it would be to the benefit of whoever got them lower. Mr. CLARK. Whoever bought them would get them lower. Mr. SIMS. The people who were able to buy wool at these extraordinary prices would not be heard from, but those who are less able to pay the excessive prices would get things lower and yet the manufacturer would not be hurt, because he got everything there was in it. Mr. CLARK. The tendency on the part of everybody at the present time generally is to get just as good a fabric as he can pay for. Mr. SIMS. Just as good as he can pay for. Therefore, the people of moderate means who can not possibly pay for these fine virginwool garments would have to do without them. Mr. CLARK. They are paying for them to-day. Mr. SIMS. Are they paying $6.60 a yard? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it is astonishing how many working people at the present tome are buying very high-priced fabrics. Mr. SIMS. The wages of the working classes generally are very high, but do you know of a single wage-carner that is paying $125 for an overcoat to-day? Mr. CLARK. No; I do not; but I will tell you a little story if you do not mind my taking the time. In Boston at a hearing before the commission on the necessaries of life that was appointed there for the purpose of looking into the prices of various commodities and trying to determine whether or not there was profiteering going on, there was present a representative of a large clothing establishment of Boston, who mentioned about an Italian coming into his place of business, an Italian workman. The Italian bought a suit of clothes for which he paid $65, an overcoat for which he paid $75, and two silk shirts that he paid $18 apiece for. The salesman then thought he had a pretty good customer, and he asked the Italian, "Don't you want to buy some nice neckties to go with those shirts?" and the Italian answered, "Oh, no: me no wear collars and neckties." Mr. SIMS. I want to ask you this, as you are perhaps as well advised as any body on this subject: Do you think the passage of the French bill would result in increasing the production of wool in this country? Mr. CLARK. I am inclined to think it would, to some extent. Mr. CLARK. I could not possibly tell that. Mr. SIMS. If you increase the production of wool, would you not to that extent reduce the price of wool? Mr. CLARK. Not necessarily, not if the demand for virgin wool were to continue as high as it has been. It would create higher prices. Mr. SIMS. What is your opinion as to whether we could produce in this country what we need? Do you think we could produce all the wool we need? Mr. CLARK. Oh, no, no, no. Mr. SIMS. What effect would this bill, if it became a law, have upon wool growing in this country? Mr. CLARK. I do not think it would have the effect of producing the entire quantity we need in this country. I think it would have the effect of increasing the domestic production. Mr. SIMS. There is nothing in it by which you could think that we would grow in this country all the wool this country needs? Mr. CLARK. I could not say that. Mr. SIMS. I am asking you if you think that would be the result. Mr. CLARK. There are some wools that would have to be imported, because of climatic conditions. Mr. SIMS. I have reference to such wools as we can and do produce in this country. Could we in this country grow all the wool of the kind we do produce here that would be needed in this country? Mr. CLARK. Why, it is almost impossible for me to answer that. I think the production would be increased. I think Mr. Rainey was right in his testimony the other day. There are other causes which have a bearing in that connection. As he explained it, the production of wool in this country can not be increased by the passage of any law. Mr. SIMS. You mean the dog law? Do you not think the increase of production of wool in this country would result in decreasing the price? Mr. CLARK. I think probably there would be a more energetic enforcement of the dog laws. Mr. SIMS. I think those wage earners who buy $125 overcoats are largely dog owners, so far as my observation goes. Mr. CLARK. I will tell you another incident. A friend of mine who is connected with one of the largest concerns manufacturing men's clothing-I will not call it by name, but it has a high reputation all over the country-stated that they were getting $75 for their suits but that they were not selling to the class of trade that they usually sold to. He said to one of his old customers, "Why haven't we seen you this season to get a suit?" and this old customer said, "I am not going to pay $75 for a suit of clothes." The clothier said, "We are selling these suits at these prices but we are selling them to the workingmen. They are the ones that are buying them, but the class of trade we sold them to before are not buying them at these prices." Mr. SIMS. Does that not include the element of ability or inability of the people to know when they are being deceived? Mr. CLARK. No, I do not think so. I do not think they are deceived now. I think the business on the whole is done on an honest basis, and that the competition in the business absolutely prohibits a manufacturer from getting a better price for goods with shoddy in them than he otherwise would get, that the prices are regulated by |