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competition and that the buyers are getting value for their money under the existing conditions. I think that under any such bill as the French bill they would know less as to what they are getting and be bothered about it vastly more than they are at present.

Mr. SIMS. Do you not think that, under the present high prices, both for wool and fabrics, a suspended tariff on them until we catch up would be a good thing?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir: I do not, as a manufacturer.

Mr. SIMS. You do not think if you sold all you have got, all you make, to wage earners at $75 a suit, that a protective tariff could possibly hurt you?

Mr. CLARK. We have not needed a protective tariff during the war. Mr. SIMS. No; we have not needed a protective tariff during the

war.

Mr. CLARK. And the prices are higher now than they were during the war.

Mr. SIMS. The prices are higher now than they were during the war?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes; yes, indeed.

Mr. SIMS. Do you need any protection now?

Mr. CLARK. We certainly do. The only reason we do not at the present time is because foreign competitors are not in position to send their goods to this country in any very large competitive amount. France is in no position to do it, Belgium is in no position to do it, and Germany can not get raw materials, she can not finance them, and she is also short of coal; and the only country at the present time that can send goods here in competition is England. She is beginning to increase her exportation to this country to a very remarkable degree. The importations for the year 1919 were not large, they were less than they were in 1918, but the importations during the months of January and February of this year have been very largely increased, and it is because English goods can be sold cheaper in this country than we can make them.

Mr. BARKLEY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question or two of Mr. Clark.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Mr. Barkley.

Mr. BARKLEY. Did you say you were familiar with the provisions of House bill 2855 ?

Mr. CLARK. Which bill is that, your bill?

Mr. BARKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. To some extent; yes, sir.

Mr. BARKLEY. Are you sufficiently familiar with the bill to give the committee any notion as to its merits?

Mr. CLARK. Why, we favor most decidedly a bill of that character rather than a bill like the French bill. We think that a bill of that character will accomplish all that is necessary to accomplish and all that is desirable to accomplish. We rather think that certain conditions that are in the Rogers bill, which are taken partly from the British merchandise marks act, would improve the bill, but we believe in the principle of a bill like yours or like Mr. Rogers's. Mr. BARKLEY. Do you think it is entirely workable? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; yes, indeed.

Mr. BARKLEY. Those are all the questions I have to ask.

Mr. CLARK. I would like to make just a short statement. I was telling you about the Government contracts, and I neglected to state that during all the war period the Government in order to see that its specifications were thoroughly and properly carried out, had an inspector in every mill that was making Government Army goods, and that inspector stayed there all the time; he lived there in the mill village, and he was in the mill all day long inspecting the manufacture of goods, so that while the manufacturer did not stamp the goods in any way, the Government was made secure by having this inspector on the premises. The Government paid those inspectors at the rate of from $1,200 to $1.500 a year. If goods are to be stamped in such a way as this, I do not know how in the world the Government is going to be sure that they are stamped correctly unless they send these inspectors around to the mills.

Mr. WINSLOW. What proportion of the wools, as we speak of them generally, would be considered suitable for clothing, and which are made in this country?

Mr. CLARK. You mean as distinguished between clothing, we will say, and blankets and things of that kind?

Mr. WINSLOW. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. I could not answer that question, Mr. Winslow, but I think in our pamphlet which we left with you we give statistics in the back of it which, if I am not mistaken, will give you these figureswoolen suitings, overcoats, worsted suitings and overcoats, flannels for underwear, blankets, carriage robes, shawls, and so on.

Mr. WINSLOW. Upon what page does that appear?

Mr. CLARK. Appendix No. 2, on page 20. There are certain statistics there for the total quantity of fibers used.

Mr. WINSLOW. Can you offhand name some of the principal lines of goods which are used for clothing purposes?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; in worsted goods, worsted serges, and fancy worsteds for men's wear; and for women's wear, such fabrics as tricotines, serges-a lot of trade names that indicate the character of the fabric or weave. In woolen goods we have what they call flannel suitings, cassimeres, thibets, cheviots, silk stripes. For overcoatings there are one kind and another that have special names— chinchillas, meltons, kerseys, and so on. For women's wear we have broadcloths, velours, duvetyns, etc.

Mr. WINSLOW. You spoke of worsteds; then you spoke of woolens. Is there any one of those general lines which represents a considerable proportion of all the woolen clothes made?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; worsteds.

Mr. WINSLOW. What is the difference between worsted and any other wool?

Mr. CLARK. It is in the method of construction and the wool that is in it. It is made of entirely long staple wool. The process is to comb that wool in order to get the long fibers and to eliminate the short fibers, which are called noils. Then the top, which is the long staple and which comes from the comb, is put through a variety of operations, which are continually drawing, drawing, drawing, and blending and blending and blending, until they get down to the spinning operations for the yarn, and all this while the fibers parallel each other.

Mr. WINSLOW. Is that virgin wool?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WINSLOW. Do you mean to say that the worsted is all virgin wool?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; the bulk of the worsteds in the country are made of all virgin wool, three-fourths of all the goods made, which can not have any shoddy in them.

Mr. WINSLOW. You say that three-fourths of all the woolens that are made are worsteds and that they are made of virgin wool? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WINSLOW. That means that three-fourths at least of the clothes that we get is all virgin wool; then we do not have to worry about that.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I may have stated it a trifle high, but it is a good deal more than a half.

Mr. WINSLOW. So that the opportunity to be deceived, or the chance of anybody being deceived, would come on the balance of the woolens which are made up in one form or another?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WINSLOW. What part of the balance would you say was made up of all virgin wool?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, it is rather hard to tell that, but possibly one-half. Mr. WINSLOW. One-half of the balance?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. WINSLOW. So that if we have 60 per cent of all the wool cloths made of worsted there would be 40 per cent more to account for?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; square yards. Here is a statement, and we give a very similar statement in the brief which we have left with you. For instance, here the production according to the census of 1914, woolen that is, carded woolen-all wool, was eighty-five million and some odd square yards.

Mr. WINSLOW. You mean virgin wool?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; not all; there is the possibility of using shoddy, but to just what extent we do not know. Now, against that, of all worsted goods in which shoddy would not be used 237,000,000 square yards. Then, with cotton-warp goods, with woolen filling, carded woolen filling, there are about 103,000,000 square yards; and in the filling of those goods it would be possible to use shoddy. Then cotton warp, with worsted filling, in which there would be no shoddy used in the filling, there would be 93,000,000 square yards. Then there is made with a blend of cotton and wool and by a carded woolen process in which shoddy can be used, 40,000,000 square yards. There is a very small product of worsted of that character put down here, 6,000,000 square yards that possibly would have a little shoddy in it.

Mr. WINSLOW. Then 45 or 50 per cent would be nearer right than 75 per cent of all worsted made of all virgin wool?

Mr. CLARK. This that I have read off would amount to about 60 per cent

Mr. WINSLOW (interposing). So that we, in considering the dangers in misrepresentation, would have to consider 40 per cent of the woolens that are made for clothing.

Mr. CLARK. Not more than that.

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Mr. SANFORD. The percentage where shoddy counts is only in fabric that is sold as all-wool fabric. Where shoddy is used with cotton in fabric as a manipulated fabric it is out of the all-wool class, anyway.

Mr. WINSLOW. The minute you use cotton it comes out of the all-wool class and goes into a separate class. It would not be considered as in the wool class.

Mr. SANFORD. No; it is outside of the wool class. There could be no deception in regard to it in the market.

Mr. WINSLOW. Is it used for clothing?

Mr. SANFORD. It is used for clothing, but it is clearly understood what it is.

Mr. WINSLOW. I know; but under this bill they would have to be marked.

Mr. SANFORD. I am talking about the practice in the market. Mr. WINSLOW. My point is this: We are to protect the consumer. We must cover every kind of cloth.

Mr. SANFORD. I believe the consumer knows that; and there is no way he can be deceived.

Mr. CLARK. You are right; that those goods would have to be stamped under this bill.

Mr. WINSLOW. One or two more questions: Is it fair to assume that about 40 per cent of the woolens which go into women's and men's clothing would represent other than virgin wool—all kinds? Mr. SANFORD. Yes, sir; I should say so.

Mr. CLARK. Some of that 40 per cent is not sold on the market as all-wool goods, and our friends who are proposing the French bill are objecting to the sale of goods with shoddy in them as all-wool goods. These goods, as Mr. Sanford has explained, are not sold as all-wool goods on the market, anyway.

Mr. WINSLOW. But they are used for the same purpose?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; for clothing; yes, sir.

Mr. WINSLOW. Would it be your mind that if this bill that was submitted to us was to pass that that cotton line of goods would be outside of it?

Mr. CLARK. Naturally, the bill says that any fabric that has wool in it has got to be stamped. If there is any wool at all in it it has got to be stamped. Those goods would have to be stamped accord ing to what their material content was. Any fabric, with wool in it, has got to be stamped under this bill.

Mr. WINSLOW. Well, 60 per cent of all the clothes that have wool in them are worsted-anybody might know. that they are made of virgin wool only.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they ought to know it.

Mr. WINSLOW. With such a law in existence, would the manufacturer need to brand his goods at all-with the British merchandise marks act?

Mr. CLARK. He would not need to brand them in any way. If he misrepresents them he is subject to penalty.

Mr. WINSLOW. I understood you to say that the presence of shoddy or any reworked wool would prevent or diminish sales of such materials to the public to some extent?

Mr. CLARK. I think so.

Mr. WINSLOW. Well, now, is not the sale, then, of such materials. as all-woolen an imposition upon the public?

Mr. CLARK. Not at all, because it is all wool.

Mr. WINSLOW. To my mind, there would seem to be some imposition upon the public.

Mr. CLARK. No: I think we tried to show, and our brief says, that there is a prejudice in the public mind upon these matters, and if you undertake to put the material content upon every yard of fabric it simply appeals to that prejudice and misleads the buyer.

Mr. WINSLOW. Well, prejudice is generally based upon the information furnished, or the lack of it.

Mr. CLARK. The lack of information.

Mr. WINSLOW. Then, furnishing information would remove that prejudice. Those samples that were exhibited here this morning, suppose they are samples of goods made for the trade, such goods as is provided for the trade, and that they were not simply for illustration in this hearing.

Mr. CLARK. Most of them are fabrics for sale.

Mr. SIMS. Most of them-then, some of them were just simply prepared for this hearing?

Mr. CLARK. One or two of them were prepared for this hearing to show what would be possible under such a bill as this.

Mr. SIMS. Now, take samples Nos. 4, 5, and 6, of cloth, those are nearly all used in carpets, rugs, and things of that kind.

Mr. CLARK. I do not think we had samples marked 4, 5, and 6. You mean wool samples?

Mr. SIMS. Wool.

Mr. CLARK. You mean fiber samples?

Mr. SIMS. They were very coarse, rough-feeling goods.

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; there is not a single one of them that would be used in carpets. Carpet wool is of an entirely different character. That would be used in clothing.

Mr. SIMS. Clothing?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIMS. Now, Mr. Clark, I live in the South. The crop in our section of the country is for cotton. I got the idea from you this morning that this bill, or one like it, that would disclose the amount of cotton that was being carried in so-called woolen fabrics would reduce the demand for cotton for such purposes.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I think it would, because there is a prejudice against the use of cotton in clothing fabrics.

Mr. SIMS. But there is no prejudice against cotton when sold as cotton fabrics?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. SIMS. But there is a prejudice against selling cotton for wool, when a purchaser believes he is getting wool when in fact he is getting cotton.

Mr. CLARK. Well, any fabric with cotton in it now is not sold as an all-wool fabric; it never is. It is a perfectly easy matter to tell whether there is cotton in the fabric or not. You can not tell whether there is shoddy in it.

Mr. SIMS. How would it reduce the demand for cotton if it is well known?

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