accomplish anything you have got to adopt standards irrespective of what the thing is made of?

Mr. REYNOLDS. He made a good point on that, if you want to go that far.

Mr. MERRITT. What you maintain, sir, in my judgment, is to show that the markings provided by the French bill will give useful

and accurate information.

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes, I believe it will, not to the extent that we would like, but you can go further if you are willing to, and no one will have any objection that I know of; that is, the consumers. A man is buying a suit of clothes, for example. Now, there is the first grade of wool, and the first grade of shoddy. One is marked virgin wool and the other is marked shoddy. On the shoddy, the manufacturer can put, if he wants to, that it is the better grade of shoddy. Mr. MERRITT. Do you think if a manufacturer made a cloth of all new wool of a very poor grade that he would want to put that on? Mr. REYNOLDS. How is that?

Mr. MERRITT. Suppose a manufacturer made an all-wool cloth of all new wool of an inferior grade, inferior to shoddy, you say that if he wanted to put that grade on the cloth he could do it, but would he do it?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Oh, no, that would be against nature.

Mr. SIMS. It may be that the manufacturers would not object to having any fabric that is made out of virgin wool marked this way: "No cotton or reworked wool in this fabric." Give them a negative brand and then let everything else go, and let everybody buy shoddy that wants to buy it. It is neither marked shoddy or otherwise, and any man who wanted a garment that was all virgin wool or new wool would get it because every such garment as that would be branded or marked "No cotton or reworked wool in this fabric.” Perhaps the manufacturer would be glad to adopt that kind of a marking. Have you thought of that feature of it?

Mr. REYNOLDS. No, as I say, it has been discussed and discussed in different organizations and among individuals who have made a study of it, and they feel that the French bill or something similar that would require the stamping on of the different ingredients, all virgin wool," or "shoddy," would perhaps be as fair a standard as they could get under the circumstances. You can not get everything. Mr. COOPER. I think the point that Mr. Merritt was trying to make was this, that under the French bill there is going to be no distinction in the stamping of a piece of virgin-wool cloth, as to whether or not it was made out of the highest grade of virgin wool or the poorest grade.

Mr. REYNOLDS. If you can make a distinction I think it would be very acceptable, there is no doubt about that. If you could pass a law that would make such a distinction I think it would certainly be desirable.

Mr. COOPER. I want to ask you another question. For example, here are two pieces of cloth that are both marked "virgin wool." They are put into a suit of clothes. Now, I, as a consumer, go there to buy a suit of clothes. I do not know the difference between these two pieces of cloth. Both are stamped virgin wool, although one is made out of inferior cloth of virgin wool, and one is made out of a very high grade of cloth of virgin wool. That was the point Mr. Merritt was trying to make, was it not?

Mr. MERRITT. Yes.

Mr. REYNOLDS. If you might remedy that.

Mr. MERRITT. It is up to you to answer that. You are the man that is going to answer that.

Mr. SIMS. It seems to me that anybody would want that answered, anybody looking after the public interest.

Mr. BARKLEY. Would it be practicable to mark a garment or a piece of cloth made wholly of virgin wool so as to indicate the character of wool out of whcih it was made? Would that be practicable? Would it be a practicable proposition to say, for instance, "This cloth is made out of the highest grade of virgin wool." "This cloth is made out of a medium grade of virgin wool," or "This cloth is made out of the lowest grade of virgin wool"? Would that be a practicable proposition?

Mr. REYNOLDS. It might be a good idea to standardize it in "A grade virgin wool," "B grade virgin wool," or "A grade shoddy," "B grade shoddy," or whatever you want, or first grade, second grade, third grade, and so on. Anybody would naturally know that A grade or the first grade was better than B grade. That would be the natural supposition, would it not?

Mr. BARKLEY. There are differences or variations in quality even in what is known as A-1 or B-1, and so on.

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. This bill that we have before us seems to come as near to it as anything that we can give the consumer, that is, for the purpose of giving the consumer some isea of what he is buying. Mr. BARKLEY. A while ago you illustrated the benefits of this kind of legislation by referring to the matter of oleomargarine. Are you able to say I am asking this question for information, because I do not know--are you able to say whether or nor oleomargarine before the marketing of it as such has increased in quality above what it was before it was marked oleomargarine, or when it was sold as butter? Mr. REYNOLDS. I think it has, to a certain extent. I think the development of the processes of manufacture of oleomargarine has brought about improvements.

Mr. SIMS. There is no doubt that it has been improved through improvement of the methods of manufacture.

Mr. BARKLEY. Would you not feel that if you had to mark the thing as it really is and not sell it under another name, if it is sold on its intrinsic merits that it would have to be better than it previously was in order to sell it on its merits?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, perhaps it would. But what I wanted to speak of is the unfair competition of shoddy with virgin wool. That was one of the points that I wanted to bring out.

Mr. COOPER. Mr. Chairman, before the gentleman goes on with that, may I ask one more question?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Certainly.

Mr. SIMS. At the beginning of your statement you stated that you were interested in this question from the standpoint of the public. Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. COOPER. Now, that is true with this committee. I myself personally would like to do something to encourage the wool growers of this country. I think it is an industry that ought to be encouraged, yet, at the same time, in considering a question like this we have got to consider it from the standpoint of the general public. You will admit that.

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; certainly.

Mr. COOPER. As I have said, I would like to encourage the wool growers. We must be careful in the passage of legislation of this character not to do something that might deceive the public, in having the public think they are getting something that they are not getting. In connection with the question you asked a moment ago, I want to have this clear in my mind-if legislation of this character is enacted you think there will be some protection to the public in the grading of these wools. A piece of fabric made out of virgin wool, to specify whether it is the highest grade of virgin wool or whether it is the poorest grade of virgin wool-now, what is your idea about that? Mr. REYNOLDS. I believe that if that could be done it would be desirable.

Mr. COOPER. If it can not be done, is there not some danger of deceiving the public?

Mr. REYNOLDS. I will tell you this, if you want to rely on the opinions of men who have made this a study for some years, the wool growers have been investigating this subject and they have decided that this "truth in fabric" bill practically embodies the result of their investigation as being the best method that could be got, under certain conditions, of meeting the problem.

Mr. COOPER. The State I represent at one time used to be a great wool-growing State, and it is to this day to some extent. As I say, I am intensely interested in the production of a wool crop, and I want to encourage it, but yet I am not satisfied that the provisions of the French bill would protect the public against buying an inferior grade of wool cloth when in reality they might think they are buying a very fine article. That is the point I am trying to make.

Mr. JONES. There are only two things, I take it, in which the public or purchasers are interested-first, the appearance of a suit or fabric, and, second, the durability or practicability of the cloth for the purpose desired. That is true, is it not?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. JONES. Are there any other considerations entering into the purchaser's mind except those two features-of course the price enters into it always-but there are no other considerations entering the purchaser's mind; is not that true?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Certainly.

Mr. JONES. Now, so far as the appearance is concerned, they need no information, as that is only a question of taste-I might like a piece of cloth and you might not like it. When it comes to the other point, the practicability or the durability of the cloth, will you kindly point out to me where the French bill would give any information on that point?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, only that the better grades-

Mr. JONES (interposing). Well, now, you have read the bill, have you not?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JONES. And you have read what is required in the marking or stamping of the cloth?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. JONES. Well, now, will you kindly tell me whether that marking or stamping would give any information to the purchaser of the durability of the cloth that he was buying?

Mr. REYNOLDS. The only argument that I can put up, or anybody else that I know of, is that the better grades of the virgin wool are better than the better grades of shoddy. The medium grades of virgin wool would be better than the medium grades of shoddy.

Mr. JONES. Put it this way, following Mr. Cooper's questionsSuppose a merchant would show you two pieces of cloth, each one of them has a stamp on it that it contains 80 per cent virgin wool. Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. JONES. And 20 per cent something else. Under the French bill that is all it need say, as to what it contains in the wool line-80 per cent wool, or virgin wool. Now, suppose, as a matter of fact, that one of those samples that are shown you has 80 per cent of a very cheap grade of virgin wool, and the other sample has 80 per cent of the very best grade of virgin wool. The information to you, if depending upon the stamp or tag, would mean nothing, would it? If you depended on the stamp or tag you would get no information as to which of those two samples would be the better, if there was any difference between them?

Mr. REYNOLDS. I do not know as it would.

Mr. JONES. And to a person not being familiar with fabrics he would assume that they were both of the same quality, as they were both described the same, so far as the virgin wool was concerned. Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, that might be.

Mr. JONES. And then he would have the right to assume that they would have the same durability, would he not?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Do you realize that it is almost impossible

Mr. JONES (interposing). Answer that question, please. Would he not have the right to assume that they would have the same durability? Mr. REYNOLDS. Possibly he would.

Mr. JONES. Then, as a matter of fact, he would be misled, would he not?

Mr. REYNOLDS. No more misled than he is now, that I know of. Mr. JONES. Then there would be no purpose in the law if it gave the purchaser no more information that he now has?

Mr. REYNOLDS. We feel that there would be a purpose in it.
Mr. SIMS. Right on that point.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through, Mr. Jones?

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SIMS. The theory in opposition to this bill, as I understand it, is, that it would not make it impossible for anybody to be deceived or to misjudge the quality of the cloth or fabric. Now, take it as it is now, and take it as it would be if the French bill were to become a law substantially as it is, it would afford the courts an opportunity to deal with the situation when the people are played upon, cheated, and swindled as they are now.

Mr. REYNOLDS. I think the gentleman who appeared here yesterday, the buyer for the Government, said that the Government used all wool, that is, virgin wool, in its fabrics because it was better in the clothing that they make for the soldiers; and the question was asked by Mr. Dewalt why they used pure virgin wool in those garments-I think it was in clothing and he also asked why they did not use shoddy? The witness said it was better because the virgin wool they had was better than the shoddy that they could get. It is reasonable to suppose that virgin wool of the same grade, or the grade that is put into clothing, is better than shoddy, and the person

who is buying virgin wool clothing would be willing to pay more for it than he would be willing to pay for shoddy.

Mr. COOPER. That is about the point I was going to make. The French bill will probably do everything it is intended to do. Now, what about grading the wool?

Mr. BARKLEY. Does the French bill require any grading?

Mr. REYNOLDS. No.

Mr. SIMS. I assume we can make it require anything we think necessary in order to carry out its purposes and intent.

Mr. REYNOLDS. So far as I am concerned, I would like to have that added on to it.

Mr. BARKLEY. Will you permit a question there? Would you advocate legislation of this sort for all commodities?

Mr. REYNOLDS. I think the Rogers bill and the Barkley bills are all right so far as they go.

Mr. BARKLEY. I know, but they are based on a different theory than this French bill.

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BARKLEY. I am speaking now of compulsory branding of all articles of commerce. Do you think that that would be a practicable or wise piece of legislation?

Mr. REYNOLDS. We are advocating that in the pure-seed bill and in the fertilizer bill.

Mr. BARKLEY. I am not myself able to say if there is any greater need for legislation for any of those commodities than any other commodities. Are you able to state whether there is any greater need for this legislation in the woolens trade than for other commodities in interstate commerce?

Mr. REYNOLDS. I really think there is.

Mr. BARKLEY. Is there more need for it than there is for it in another trade?

Mr. MONTAGUE. I think the fertilizer bill requires the manufacturers to stamp the package.

Mr. REYNOLDS. The fertilizer manufacturers stamp on the outside of the bag, they have for years, the amount of the contents.

Mr. JONES. Speaking of the grading of this virgin wool, there are probably six or seven or eight different grades of virgin wool, are there not?

Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. JONES. If these various grades are put on tags there would have to be steps somewhere in these grades. Say, for my purposes, for instance, to put it that way, I would prefer not to go below the grade of virgin wool. Now, I am wondering where you would draw the line as to these different grades.

Mr. REYNOLDS. Take the apple grading act, they have three grades, and I believe some States have four grades. You can not put all the grades

Mr. JONES (interposing). Yes, but they can see the apples, and the purchaser can generally tell by looking at the apples what grade he wants, but I am assuming now that the stamping under the French bill would require that the stamp should show the grade of the virgin wool that is in the cloth, not only the percentage but the grade of the wool that is in there. I wonder how the average person would be able to tell whether they ought to buy that grade of cloth, or whether they should stop and go into the shoddy line.