Dr. STRATTON. But who is going to say what the mark means, except as to what the content is?

Mr. BONYNGE. But that is a very good first step.

Dr. STRATTON. Yes; that is a very good first step..

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a few questions of Judge Stratton?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Clark, it is not the custom of this committee to permit witnesses to cross-question each other, but inasmuch as we have permitted it in the case of Mr. Bonynge we will allow you to ask your questions.

Mr. CLARK. Dr. Stratton, you have heard that the bill provides that the Government can examine the books of the manufacturer to see whether he has stamped the fabric correctly?

Dr. STRATTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. You have also heard that that is to be tested or may be tested by an examination in your bureau.

Dr. STRATTON.. Yes; as far as we have methods and ability to do it. Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that you can determine a fabric, we will say, that has 50 per cent virgin wool, 25 per cent of reworked wool, and 25 per cent of cotton. Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that you can by a test and examination in your bureau determine the exact percentages of each one of those fibers which are in that fabric. Now, is it not a fact. that those different fibers, the percentage of which was so and so, as I have stated, on the manufacturers' books; was it not a fact that through all of the processes of manufacture that those different fibers would every one of them-shrink in a different proportion by the time that they have gotten into the finished fabric, and in that way even if you could by test determine the exact percentage of each, that your test would not agree by considerable with the percentage put into the manufacturers' books?

Dr. STRATTON. That is true to a certain extent; but we could get around that if it misled us in any way. That is, if this shrinkage was sufficient it would not be a difficult matter, I imagine, to determine the amount of shrinkage in each, but you would still have some variation in manufacture of different fabrics. I couldn't answer you offhand as to the amount of that shrinkage. There would be a little difference, but in most cases we could get what we call the coefficient which tells to a given percentage what that shrinkage will be.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Dr. STRATTON. I do not want to give the impression that I am not in favor of a branding law. I am. I would like to see a general branding law similar to the pure-food law sufficiently flexible to allow some of these things to be worked out; that is, working toward the plan that is to brand everything as to its composition and educating as to its quality at the same time. I am not opposed to the law, but I am not sure that we are ready to administer it.

(Thereupon, the committee recessed until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The committee reconvened at 2 o'clock p. m., Hon. Samuel E. Winslow (acting chairman) presiding.

Mr. WINSLOW. The chairman has asked me to open this session and go on with the hearing in his absence for a few minutes. Who is the next witness to appear?

STATEMENT OF MR. BENJAMIN C. MARSH, SECRETARY AND DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATION OF THE FARMERS' NATIONAL COUNCIL.

Mr. WINSLOW. Please state your name and whom you represent. Mr. MARSH. Benjamin C. Marsh, secretary and director of legislation of the Farmers' National Council, with headquarters in the Bliss Building here in Washington.

Mr. Chairman, in appearing on behalf of the Farmers' National Council on this bill of Mr. French's, I want to say that we are confident that although the farmers' organizations united in the Farmers' National Council to carry out their reconstruction program have not taken a specific vote on this bill, they indorse the general principles of the bill; but recognizing the fact that it can accomplish only certain results, and not expecting too much from it.

In the first place, it is obvious-and I shall not attempt to go into the long arguments which have been made before your committeethat there should be some way by which the public would know what they are getting when they buy clothing. As far as we can see, the enactment of this bill of Mr. French's will not in any way guarantee the farmer a fair price for his product, which, of course, means the cost of production plus a fair profit, nor will it in any way affect the ungodly profiteering of the American Woolen Co. and the other woolen companies. Therefore, we are not expecting, nor indorsing it as expecting, it to prevent profiteering, but it seems to us that if the principles of this bill are carried out it will in some measure at least protect the public.

I bought this suit of clothes about a year and a half ago and I think I paid a reasonable price for it. It seemed to me a very good suit. If you will pardon a very concrete illustration, in about four or five days the trousers began to sag at the knees, the way some party platforms sag six weeks after the party has been elected on it, and it was hardly fit to be seen in public with. Well, I had been stung.

Now, I do not know whether the exact provisions of this bill will accomplish what you want or not. I listened to the discussion of Dr. Stratton this morning with a good deal of interest. What we want is something that will enable the purchaser of material covered by this bill to know what the purchaser is really getting.

It would be foolish for me to attempt to discuss shoddy. I do not know anything about it except from sad experience, in evidently having bought some. I will not say whether that designation of shoddy as provided in the makers' registration number is a technical or scientific term, and whether it will really protect the public, but I want to say this, that you have at your command experts in the Government service who can ascertain just what sort of a registration

record is adequate to protect the consumer or the purchaser of these goods. Now, that is about all we can say, because it is not a question, as I intimated earlier, of which we have made an exhaustive investigation. But as a first step-and it must certainly be regarded only as the first step-it is absolutely necessary that the public should know, that consumers should know, what to buy, and we are not at all worried over the suggestions that have been made that you can not make it perfect as a starter. It has got to be a matter of experimentation, and we would like to see the principle of this bill enacted into legislation.

It is a question whether the penalties for the retailer are so severe that it will be difficult to enforce them. Probably not. The way the profiteers have gotten off up to date would indicate that you might just as well have made it 100 years' imprisonment and Rockefeller's wealth as a fine, so far as that is concerned. But, nevertheless, some such legislation ought to be promptly enacted, because the American consuming public are getting extraordinarily distrustful of the power of their Government to protect the workingman on the farm, the factory, in the city, in the mine, or on the railroad from the profiteers; and if the technical terms used in this bill are not absolutely accurate, that is a matter which we can not pass on; you have experts who can tell you whether the phraseology is correct and scientific. The principles are admirable, and we want to indorse them and urge the enactment promptly, to carry out what we conceive to be the purport and purpose of this bill within the specified limitations cited.

I think that covers our statement, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee.

Mr. WINSLOW. Would any member of the committee like to ask Mr. Marsh any questions? If not, who is next to be heard?

Mr. BONYNGE. Mr. Walker, who appeared before the committee the other day, was asked to come back because some member of the committee desired to ask him some questions. He is here now and would be glad to answer.

Mr. WINSLOW. First, we want to call Mr. McGowan, of the Bureau of Standards, who has been brought here for the special purpose of making a statement. We can hear Mr. Walker later.

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes, certainly. I did not know Mr. McGowan was

here.

Mr. WINSLOW. After these officials are heard, you can proceed for the rest of the afternoon.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. R. MCGOWAN, CHIEF OF THE TEXTILES DIVISION OF THE BUREAU OF STANDARDS.

Mr. McGOWAN. Mr. Chairman, I have been present at these hearings, and was here a few days ago and heard what was said, and I think my best position in this case would be more to answer questions than to give out information. I do not think that I am able to enlarge very much on what you have already heard, although I agree to a large extent to what has been said by the manufacturers; or, in other words, I do not see the possibility of labeling fabricsthat is, to the extent of how much wool and how much shoddy they contain.

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It is possible, I believe, to mark a fabric "so much wool," wool meaning virgin wool and shoddy; and it is possible to mark the percentage of cotton or other fibrous material.

As for the identification of fibers in fabrics, chemical and physical analyses show that it is possible to obtain the percentage of cotton and wool; but no methods have been devised whereby virgin wool and shoddy can be detected. Their presence, at a rough estimate can be sometimes determined, but in that case there is the need of skilled help, and the use of a microscope. I do not believe that counting the number of fibers in the thread can give one any idea as to whether or not it is a virgin wool or shoddy fabric. By "shoddy" I mean reworked wool.

I believe the manufacturers of woolen worsteds are honest in what they say as to the manufacture of woolen fabrics. Their statement as to the 55 per cent of the yardage of woolen and worsted fabrics produced in this country seems to me probably correct.

The legislation as proposed by the French bill has in it a great number of complications. Not only is it not possible to detect just what the fibers are, and the fiber contents and percentage, but I do not believe it satisfies the demands of the question. I believe that a bill of this sort is a great many years ahead of its time, for the reason that the people have got to be educated to buy what they want and to tell them what the French bill proposes would tell them nothing, practically, as to what they would really want. Without any question, if a person goes to a store to buy a suit of clothes, it is my contention that he wants to get a good suit of clothes, and he buys them for wearing quality and not upon whether they contain shoddy or virgin wool. Personally, when I go to a store I do not demand an all-wool fabric, although I am somewhat familiar with the all-wool fabric business. Price is perhaps the important consideration, but I do not demand an all-wool fabric; and I think the public, when they buy a suit of any fabric, want to buy it on its qualities, for endurance and wear, and not upon its price or what it contains. (The chairman at this point resumed the chair.)

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. Were you here when the testimony was given as to the amount of wool that the Government had on hand now-virgin wool?

Mr. MCGOWAN. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. Well, it was shown in that testimony that the Government had on hand a great deal of what would under this bill be labeled "virgin wool," but which, nevertheless, was a very poor quality of wool. Now, that, no doubt, must go on the market at some price. They will keep on reducing the price until they do get it sold.

With all of that wool now going on the market, would it not afford the dishonest manufacturer an opportunity to palm off that wool on the public, perhaps at an unreasonable price, because it would have labeled thereon "virgin wool, 100 per cent?" Would not the tendency of the public be to buy that wool in preference to, say, something else that was labeled 40 per cent shoddy, which might, nevertheless, be 50 per cent better?

Mr. McGowAN. I believe if you educated him to the fact that it was better, if he thought so he would buy it.

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. If you stamp on a fabric that it is virgin wool, and you so label it, that tends to impress it as a fact that virgin wool is better than any sort of reworked wool?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes.

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. That is the tendency?
Mr. MCGOWAN. That is the tendency.

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. And that label being given to the public, made up of people who have not made any study of the subject, the tendency is to make the public think that virgin wool is better always than reworked wool?

Mr. McGOWAN. I think so.

Mr. SANDERS of Indiana. And, as a matter of fact, that is not true? Mr. MCGOWAN. No, sir.

Mr. SIMS. You think this legislation is ahead of the times-ahead of the age?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I think so.

Mr. SIMS. When do you think we will reach that stage of civilization and enlightenment that will enable us to safely enact and put into effect such a law?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I could not answer that question in definite years. Mr. SIMs. But you think that we have not reached it at this time? Mr. McGOWAN. I think it is ahead of its time.

Mr. SIMS. You know something about the development of the human race and you know what to expect along these lines?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I do not know about the future, but I could, perhaps, understand what the present situation was.

Mr. SIMS. You spoke about educating people, and I suppose you would not think, until you got them educated, of passing legislation of this kind; and the only question with me is, when education comes from actual experience, how a man is ever going to learn anything about the matter, how he is going to know about it, without ever making any trial of the matter.

Mr. McGowan. When test methods are devised whereby the wearing quality of a fabric can be determined, so as to show the public that certain fabrics are better constructed, and so eventually will give better results than other fabrics.

Mr. SIMS. How many years do you think it will be before the general public, without any technical education, will read that with advantage?

Mr. McGowan. I would not say. It is more a question for a prophet.

Mr. SIMS. You are positive that we are not that far along now? Mr. McGowAN. I think so. I do not think we are sufficiently educated.

Mr. SIMS. I have a better opinion of the stage of advancement of the people than you have. I do not think that we need to wait for a distant future.

Mr. McGOWAN. Why say that, when a person who goes down to buy a suit of clothes can not tell, nor can anybody else, how long it is going to wear from looking at it?

Mr. SIMS. No; but we are proposing that the manufacturer, where he does use all virgin wool, shall so stamp or weave it or impress it on the cloth, so that anybody else who buys it with that stamp on it, though not educated and far behind the age that you have in your mind, would know at least that it was all virgin wool.