Now, I do not see, if we are in darkness and need all the knowledge for protecting ourselves we can get, why we should not let the manufacturer, who knows exactly what goes into the fabric, and whether or not he does make it out of virgin wool, and whether it is coarse or fine wool, simply let it appear on the cloth somewhere that it is virgin wool, or that it is made out of shoddy, or part shoddy, or whatever it contains. It looks to me as though if a man is in such a state of terrible helplessness he ought to be protected in some way until he reaches that stage where he does not need protection.

Mr. McGowan. I do not think the information would help him to buy a suit of clothes.

Mr. SIMS. Suppose that was stamped on there by the manufac

turer?

Mr. MCGOWAN. That would not tell him how long it would wear. Mr. SIMS. Nobody is asking any manufacturer to stamp on a piece of cloth how long it will wear, because one man would wear it much longer than another.

Mr. McGOWAN. That is right.

Mr. SIMS. Some people are much harder on their clothes than others.

Mr. McGowAN. That is true.

Mr. SIMS. Nobody would ask anybody to stamp on a piece of cloth how long it would wear. There would be different qualities of fabrics, and all might be made out of virgin wool, just as there are different qualities of fabrics that are made out of reworked wool, but he would at least be permitted to understand so that he might invest in an article made of virgin wool instead of a reworked or rehashed shoddy; and we would just leave it to him whether he would want to try it or not. I have bought some clothes made of shoddy, sometimes, that I could hardly get home with them in good repair. I did not know they were shoddy, either, but I always remembered afterwards, after I had tested them out, that they were. Now, why should not the manufacturer, who does know what he is putting into the cloth, what material he puts into it, be required to enlighten the rest of us who are in the valley of darkness and unable to protect ourselves in any other way? Why not have it done, regardless of how long it will wear, or anything else about it?

Mr. WINSLOW. Judge, do you want him to answer some of these questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; the one I have asked.

Mr. WINSLOW. What was the one you wanted him to answer? Mr. SIMS. The one that I just asked, why that should not be done; if the manufacturer knows what is in it, why he should not be required to put some description on it when he sells it.

Mr. WINSLOW. Can you answer the question?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes; I know what he asked me. I believe that the manufacturer could do it, but I do not believe there is any necessity of it. I do not think it tells the public anything.

Mr. SIMS. You do not believe that, because you think the public has not received education sufficient enough to receive such information as that?

Mr. McGowAN. No; I do not know that it is exactly that. I think you are taking the extreme, there, of what I have said. As far as education is concerned, I do not believe the public is ignorant at all.

I believe everybody could learn a few things, and we have yet to learn something about the wearing quality of textiles.

Mr. SIMS. Everybody who can read English could read whether a thing was branded one thing or another.

Mr. McGowAN. Whether it was marked 100 per cent wool; but I do not see that that is going to tell a man anything. I believe it is more misleading, because some shoddys are better than some wools.

Mr. SIMS. You want to go on record, then, as being in favor of letting the manufacturers get all they can for their shoddys, and let the people take what they have been taking as the result? In other words, we have not reached the stage where we can be made safe, not even to take the first step?

Mr. McGowan. I believe the legislation as outlined by the misbranding bill is a good step, as you call it.

Mr. SIMS. That is all right, and I am glad to have it; but that is not requiring them to brand their products what they really are, but they can let it go unbranded entirely. But if they do brand it, they must brand it as to whether it is virgin wool or reworked wool.

Mr. PARKER. Are you the textile expert of the Bureau of Standards? Mr. McGOWAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PARKER. You are the head of the Textiles Bureau ?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PARKER. Of course the people in whose interest we are trying to enact the bill are the general consuming public. Here is a bill that is based on pure wool. Now, do you not think we should have some other standard than the pure wool standard?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes, I think so.

Mr. PARKER. I mean, for the protection of the public?
Mr. McGOWAN. Yes; I think so.

Mr. PARKER. It seems to me that the amount of wool in a fabric cuts no figure in the wearing quality or the value of the cloth, etc. In other words, if we are going to stamp cloth in some way, let us stamp it so that it will help the consumer irrespective of how much wool or shoddy it has got in it. Do you not think it is better for the public?

Mr. McGOWAN. I think so.

Mr. PARKER. That is the way it seems to me. It seems to me it has been clearly demonstrated by a lot of people that some shoddy is better than some that is not shoddy. I always supposed that "all wool" meant something until I heard this testimony, and now I am firmly convinced that you can have better cloth made of shoddy than you can of all wool; but it seems to me that the standard ought to be the wearing qualities of the cloth instead of the amount of wool the cloth has in it. Do you understand that?

Mr. MCGOWAN. That is what I mean to bring out.

Mr. WINSLOW. What was your answer?

Mr. McGOWAN. I said that was what I meant to bring out.

Mr. DEWALT. It was stated by some one here not connected with the Bureau of Standards that even with your chemical tests it was practically impossible to determine the amount of reworked wool that there was in a fabric. Is that correct?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I believe so; that is, the actual percentage, whether 40 per cent shoddy or reworked wool and 60 per cent virgin wool.

Mr. DEWALT. Do you mean by that that you could detect that there was some shoddy in the fabric, but you could not determine the quantity thereof?

Mr. McGOWAN. Exactly. Although I am not able to do it myself, I believe some experts, namely, buyers, can tell what they are getting. Mr. DEWALT. Now, if the witness has already answered these questions I am going to ask on this, I will not go any further. I do not know whether he has or not.

Mr. WINSLOW. I do not know.

Mr. DEWALT. Would your chemical analyses or tests be able to determine the quality of virgin wool if the fabric was all virgin wool? Mr. McGOWAN. As for certain tests, we now have them that could determine the physical qualities, I think, and we could tell whether it was all wool or not.

Mr. DEWALT. But I was speaking now of the quality of the virgin wool itself. Would you by your tests be able to determine as to whether this was high-grade virgin wool or whether it was low-grade virgin wool?

Mr. McGOWAN. I believe so.

Mr. DEWALT. You would? There is a difference, as witnesses have stated, between virgin wools, depending upon the breed of the sheep and other circumstances. Now, have your tests thus far been able to determine as to these various grades?

Mr. McGOWAN. No, sir; we do not go into animal husbandry. I think that belongs to the Bureau of Animal Husbandry, to determine the different grades of wool.

Mr. DEWALT. From your experience as a tester of fabrics, if you have had any-have you had any?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEWALT. Yes. Well, from your experience as a tester of fabrics, would you be able from such tests to establish a standard of manufacture in regard to the percentages of virgin wool, we will say, and shoddy?

Mr. McGowan. Do you mean a standard of varieties or a standard of composition?

Mr. DEWALT. The standard of utility, and utility is expressed, in my thought, in the wearing quality of the fabric, and its protection to the body.

Mr. MCGOWAN. Not now. We have no such tests.

Mr. DEWALT. You have not gone that far?

Mr. McGOWAN. No, sir.

Mr. DEWALT. Then I understand you to say that it would be practically impossible, with the knowledge that you now have, to establish such standards by your tests.

Mr. MCGOWAN. We are trying to determine means of measuring wear, and we have been the last six months working on it, but as yet we have not been able to determine the wearing qualities of different fibers.

Mr. DEWALT. That being so—and you are admitting that it is practically impossible to establish standards upon the plan that I have tried to outline what is your judgment as to the feasibility, so far as the knowledge of the public is concerned, of establishing marks upon the goods themselves? If you people are not able to determine, how would they be able to determine?

Mr. MCGOWAN. You mean marks which state the standard? Mr. DEWALT. No, to tell the quantity. You say, as I understand you, that even if the goods were marked 50 per cent virgin wool, or 75 per cent shoddy, and 25 per cent cotton, that you would be unable to determine the quality of this virgin wool by your tests, because there are different qualities of virgin wool? You would be unable to detect the quality of the shoddy that was in it, and you would not be able to determine even the quantity of shoddy that there was in it. You could say there was some shoddy but could not tell how much? Mr. McGowAN. Yes.

Mr. DEWALT. Now, if even you, with your chemical knowledge and analyses, could not determine the utility and the wear of that article, how would the public, simply by having this mark upon the goods, be able to determine? Would they be more or less able than you?

Mr. McGowAN. At the present time we could not do it, but I think after experimenting on it we perhaps could give some information to help them in judging of fabrics. But at the present time I do not believe you could put any mark on a fabric that would help them out at all.

Mr. DEWALT. So that, as a practical chemist working in the Bureau of Standards, you would say that the establishment of standards at this time for such fabrics would be impracticable and not of any use to the public?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I do not believe they would be. I believe it would take some years to do it, too.

Mr. DEWALT. What do you think as to the practicability, so far as the public is concerned, of marking goods, say 50 per cent of virgin wool, 25 per cent of shoddy, and 25 per cent of cotton? Would that give any useful information to the customer except the mere fact of the percentage?

Mr. MCGOWAN. I do not believe it would. I do not believe it would help him out in buying or selecting his fabric.

Mr. DEWALT. That is all.

Mr. BONYNGE. You can determine tensile strength by the examination of a fabric, can you not?

Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes, sir. I do not believe the tensile strength has any importance in determining the quality of the fabric.

Mr. BONYNGE. It differs somewhat about its durability, does it not? Mr. MCGOWAN. Yes; but it is just one test.

Mr. DEWALT. Just one more question. In the manufacture of these fabrics do you know as to whether or not the process of manufacture differs in various mills? Have you any information as to that?

Mr. McGowan. I believe the manufacture is practically the same up to the finishing. I believe that different manufacturers give the products different finishes.

Mr. DEWALT. In establishing standards, if you could establish standards, would you be obliged, in order to make your standards accord, to have knowledge really of the practice of manufacture as well as of the constituent parts of the goods?

Mr. McGowAN. I believe so.

Mr. DEWALT. And, therefore, if the process of manufacture differs, either by the machinery being different or the use of the machinery being different, the standards would either fall or rise accordingly?

Mr. McGOWAN. I think so. Manufacture constitutes one of the variables which must be considered in making conclusions of wearing tests.

Mr. FRENCH. Mr. Chairman, two evenings ago Mr. Walker, of Ohio, was testifying when you adjourned, and the following morning he gave way, although several members of the committee wanted to question him, in order to permit some other gentlemen to come on who wanted to catch their trains and get away. Mr. Walker is now here and would be glad to come before the committee for any further examination desired.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. F. WALKER-Resumed.

Mr. WALKER. I am only here, gentlemen, for such questions as you want to put to me.

Mr. MERRITT. I took some notes, Mr. Walker, with reference to some of your testimony. I think you spoke of a suit of clothes that had been bought by a friend of yours which had worn badly. Do you happen to know whether the cloth that your friend had contained shoddy?

Mr. WALKER. I think possibly that was some other gentleman who made that statement. I recall the statement being made that some man was sitting beside a man on the train who made that statement. That was not in my statement.

Mr. MERRITT. I thought you spoke of a man who had paid $30 for such a suit of clothes.

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I did not make that statement.

Mr. MERRITT. Then, of course, you can not testify about this.
Mr. WALKER. I can not testify as to the experience he had.

Mr. MERRITT. I thought you were the gentleman who testified to that.

Now, is the quality, the poor wearing quality, necessarily so because it contains shoddy?

Mr. WALKER. Not necessarily so, no; I should not say. I do believe, and I think that the testimony has been developed here, that shoddy made from wool is inferior to the virgin wool from which that shoddy was reworked.

There is one point I wish to bring up there, gentlemen, and that is this: There seems to be an impression in the minds of this committee, generally, that these low-grade wools we are speaking of are wools inferior in wearing quality. Frequently they are not. The bulk of these so-called low-grade wools are wools of magnificent wearing qualities. The Scotch tweeds and cheviots, for instance, are not made from what we term fine wools. They are made of low-grade wools. The vast quantity of low-grade wool that they have on hand here in the United States, much the largest percentage of it, is so low that it would not be used in the manufacture of cloth at all; it will go into other things, such as carpets and felt, and so on.

Mr. PARKER. Things requiring a great deal of weight?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it does not enter into the composition of cloth so much, and I do not think that the percentage of low-grade wool, so far as low wearing quality is concerned, is in any material amount. I do believe that a man runs a better chance of securing value for his